Open letter to the NRA Silhouette Committee......

[Medbill]

Open letter to the NRA Silhouette Committee and my fellow silhouette shooters in all disciplines:
 
Firstly I have to say I truly appreciate the NRA and all the good work the organization as a whole has done in defending my right to keep and bear arms as well as their help and support in promoting safe shooting sports and firearms ownership.  I am a silhouette shooter that competes in four disciplines as time and life allows.  I personally hold ratings in black powder cartridge rifle, smallbore, air rifle and air pistol.  I also own a few top of the line pistols and rifles in each of the disciplines so this is not a money issue with me.  I enjoy each discipline greatly but recently there was rule change that drastically affected one of the classes I compete in and it has moved me so strongly that I'm taking the time to write this letter to the NRA as well as posting it on every internet forum I can find and to every shooting related publication that will publish it as a letter to the editor.  
 
The way I see it is I think it’s high time for NRA competitor’s voices to be heard by the silhouette committee.  The NRA sends its members countless questionnaires and polls all year long with their hands out asking for donations but when rule changes are being considered why can't they poll us then?  With all the rule changes going on in many of the different disciplines in silhouette I'm really starting to wonder who is truly behind all this and why.  I find it odd that Walther comes out with a rifle the LG300 "hunter" rifle complete with sling swivels just in time for this rule change.  Due to this new rule air rifle sporter class, as we knew it is history.  It is now simply a lighter weIght open class.  It’s also a shame seeing smallbore "hunter class" being chipped away at as well from the way it was only a few years ago in 2000 when I started shooting silhouette.  Smallbore hunter class used to allow only a factory made, off the shelf hunting style rifles with a weight, stock and trigger pull limit.  Now basically anything goes as long as it has a hunting style stock and meets the weight, stock and trigger pull requirements.  Custom barrels, stocks, and I believe aftermarket triggers are now ok under the current rules.  It also went from no shooting jacket or aids to shooters being allowed to wear leather-shooting vests so heavy and stiff they can stand up on their own on the firing line!  Everyone knows it’s a shooting aid to reduce pulse transmission and add weight to steady your aim and give you support in the offhand position regardless of a match director sticking a pvc pipe between your chest and the vest to see if its legal.  Who are we kidding?  Ourselves that's who, what ever happened to working hard on your shooting skills instead of changing the rules to make things easier and easier?  It's always done in the name of attracting new shooters and all I see is it costing shooters more money and making the games into equipment race$ and turning new shooters off.  What the heck is going on, who has the ear of the committee?  As far as I know the only discipline that is staying firm to its roots is BPCR.  I can't comment on Rifle Silhouette since I’ve never competed in it.
 
I see everything getting chipped away at in our sport just as the gun grabbers are chipping away at our gun rights and it is time to do something about it while we still can.  The NRA; our defender of the 2nd Amendment is playing the role of King George in this melodrama by to taking our dues and score book fees and arbitrarily making up new rules for us all to obey, without fair input or means of change.  My response to them to quote our nation's forefathers is, "No Taxation Without Representation"!  You want our dues; donations and score book fee’s; well I want my voice to be formally heard by the committee.  The NRA should have to make any changes based on what the competitors want, not arbitrarily.  We know the NRA, corporate advertisers; gunsmiths, etc. make lots of money off of us and even more so off the race gun shooters.  Do you think their voices get heard?   You bet they do and I'm sure they receive replies to emails and or phone messages quickly.  The committee isn’t hearing our collective voice when the relatively few competitors that attend the National Competitions vote.  I didn’t elect any of them to act as my representative.  Many of us shoot and love silhouette but for whatever reason can't or don't have the inclination to attend the Nationals in our different disciplines.   Air silhouette doesn't even get a national competition so shooters in that game totally have no voice.  

Another thing I'd like to see happen is for all the members of the silhouette committee to be required to attend a match in every silhouette discipline at least once.  This means actually participating in the match so they can get a hands on experience in regards to the game they are charged with ruling over.  Spend some time talking to the shooters face to face, see and use the gear and listen to the shooters thoughts and concerns.  No need to bring a rifle I'm sure someone would be more than happy to loan them one.  This goes for anyone else out there with any interest in coming to a match to see what this silhouette game is all about.  You’ll find a friendly bunch even if we don’t always agree and I bet everyone has at least two rifles with him or her as well as plenty of spare ammo.
 
Here is the rule that put a burr in my side:
 
3.3 Silhouette Air Rifle
(b) Sporter Air Rifle:  Any unaltered factory sporter air rifle that is or was a catalogue item, readily available over the counter to the general public, weighing no more than 11 pounds, with scope and mounts.
 
Pictured below is the rifle some match directors and competitors think is a "sporter rifle" under these new rules being they are so open to interpretation.  Nice squirrel gun isn't it and you can have one for $1,332.50 US but only if you can find a dealer that is importing one.  Hardly something you can find at Wal-Mart.


 
I predict this recent rule change in Air Rifle Sporter class is here to stay regardless of how much complaining I do because there will be more people shooting sporter class now because its a relative cakewalk to master class with its lowered classification scores and rifles like the above.  These lowered classification scores reflect the previous difficulty in mastering this classification.  I am sure the rule change was done with the best of intentions but it seems like it was made with no thought in regards to how much easier it is to shoot a PCP (precharge pneumatic and totally different firing mechanism) over a spring powered piston air rifle.  With the modern state of the art PCP air rifles, entry-level spring powered guns will go the way of the dinosaurs in competition.  Precharge air rifles are much easier to shoot accurately, period.  To make a fair comparison for those that don't know what these rifles are or even look like their firing behavior is like shooting a flintlock rifle against a modern highpower bolt action in a match.  All previous records in air rifle sporter and hard earned ratings are now rendered meaningless with the stroke of a pen.  

After this year is over and the NRA tallies up the fees it will be all about the money.  Being short sighted is not the way to go.  IMHO the rule will probably stand because it may seem like new shooters are drawn to it when in reality it is existing shooters using their already owned PCP rifles or the new top of the line LG300 Hunter.  What is right and what should be done in the spirit of the game probably won't happen.  

Now if we as shooters and match directors stand up and demand to be heard we might start to actually have a say in how the disciplines we shoot in are ruled.  If the Silhouette committee can retract its rule change regarding the use of propellants other than black powder in BPCR they can do the same for us air sporter class rifle shooters.  Now if that happens the few that have run out and bought the new LG300 already, based on their broad interpretation of the rules, knowing its not in the spirit of the game will just have to either sell them, use them in open class, use them to put squirrels in the pot or better yet petition the NRA to have a sporter PCP class and leave sporter class alone and leave it at that.  Then everyone is happy except those that are looking for a cakewalk into master class of course.
 
Don’t think the committee will listen or care?  They won't if you don't write them and let them know your thoughts and concerns.  If that doesn’t' work they certainly will if suddenly they hear that each of our clubs is only going to hold half the number of NRA matches we have a year and the other shoots will be fun shoots instead.  This should go across the board to include all disciplines.  It’s really time to take a stand folks.  I don't know about you but I'm tired of being told what to do and how to play the game especially by people that never asked me for any input.  Many times by those that have never even tried the games they rule over.  Are you tired of a new rule change every year that drastically impacts the discipline you've been shooting without so much as an explanation?  Who is getting these rules changed?  Is it a handful of shooters or match directors making phone calls and writing letters?  Is that all it takes?  If so lets get busy calling and writing but I want more.  I want some accountability and something on paper.  The NRA most certainly has the technology and money to poll each and every one of us.  All they have to do is cancel two of the dozens of monetary solicitation letters we all receive every year.  We pay how much for the scorebook, dues and entry fees not to mention equipment and travel expenses?  We are more than entitled to have a say in how our games are played.  They can certainly send us a questionnaire and then a ballot regarding proposed rule changes once a year based on shooters recommendations.  Then they can enact those voted in rule changes based on our votes.  Another option would be to put a questionnaire and ballot in Shooting Sports USA magazine.  Copies could be made and handed out at matches for those that don't subscribe.  Only NRA members and shooters have a vote, member ID # along with scorebook # would be required for your vote to count.  Sounds easy enough to me.
 
For our sport to grow there needs to be a basic beginner class in all the disciplines to draw in new shooters and make it relatively inexpensive and painless as possible to get them into the game.  A class where a guy that wants to give it a go with his old hunting rifle whether it be a break barrel air rifle, Marlin 39a lever gun, CZ-452, H&R 1871, Win model 70 or Rem 700, etc can come out and enjoy himself and actually be in the running.  He might even walk home with a piece a paper saying he won, placed, got classified or just simply had a good time hitting a few steel critters and made some new friends.  There is no arguing the fact that it’s a great way to get guys hooked and it’s also a nice place for the purists to play because in many disciplines the hunter, sporter or iron sight class is often the most difficult class to master.  Look at the recent popularity of the Cowboy lever gun class!  Just about everyone has either grandpa's, his or her own old 30-30 tucked away in the closet.  Let's see how long that class stays pure.  Someone on the net said for me to stop being so childish and idealistic in regards to this recent change.  If standing up on your soap box and yelling as loud as you can for something you strongly believe in is idealistic and childish then I guess I’m the biggest idealistic crybaby in the world.  If anyone agrees that’s fine but at least I am doing something about it other than complaining and doing nothing but letting someone roll over me.  We need to police ourselves and keep the sport in the spirit of the game as much as we can before it gets away from us.  If left unchecked only those with long arms and short pockets will be on the firing line with his and hers totally tricked out state of the art custom rifles and pistols.  They already have their class to compete in, why do they feel the need to infect them all?  By the way I happen to have a few race guns of my own but I use them in the open or standard classes and that’s what the open and standard class are for.
 
We invest a lot of time, money and effort to enjoy our beloved game of silhouette shooting and we deserve and expect to have our voices heard!  The NRA works for us, that’s you and me folks and it would be nice if they remembered that once and awhile.  I'm sure being on the Silhouette Committee isn't an easy job and I don’t envy those in that position.  It’s a tough job trying to make everyone happy but it sure would be nice if they tried to reach out to everyone to hear what we have to say for once.  

I think my suggestions would make everyone’s lives a little easier in the long run and make silhouette shooting regardless of the discipline practiced all the more enjoyable.  As Benjamin Franklin so eloquently said, “We must all hang together or assuredly we will all hang separately.”
 
NRA, are you listening because many of your members are not happy.

Sincerely,
 
 
Billy Lo
NRA#003396XXX
 
To voice your concerns please contact:
NRA Silhouette Dept. at (703) 267-1474
silhouette@nrahq.org

[GeoNLR]

Man that is a sweet looking rifle...

Chicken George

[Medbill]

Sure is, reminds me of my Air Arms Pro-target.  This is a pic off the net not my own rifle.  Big difference between what is now considered and open class rifle and LG300 Hunter huh?  :-D

[GeoNLR]

Hard to conceive that those two are made by different mfg's. Being new to the air rifle I can't tell the differences. Why would one not want to just buy one of the new LG300's and shoot both classes with it?

I have a tx200. I practice with it b/c I was told "If you can shoot a springer, you can shoot anything". I though what better tool to practice with then...Kinda disapointed to find out that 1 month later it got scraped by the rules change, but I don't have an active assoc to participate in. I do plan on shooting at Winnsboro this year.

Point of order in your letter, come to Winnie this year, help the numbers and if they are there we will have the national shoot you mentioned in your letter. As I understand it, Greg said if 50 shooters participate then next year it can be an approved national match.

Hope to see everyone there!

Chicken

[cazador viejo]

Billy:
   You hit the nail squarely on the head.  When I shot at my first State Championship I showed up with my Sako 270 complete with a Hurricane 3X7 scope.  I was shocked to discover that my rifle was too heavy to be considered a “Hunting Rifle”.  I had been hunting with that rifle for years.  So I withdrew from the Hunting Rifle match and shot only in the Standard Rifle Championship.  I was classified as a B shooter at the time.  As I recall my score for the first days match was 9 animals.  

   The second day I did everything right and shot a AA score with the old Sako.  I even got a 5 in a row on rams and chickens.  That is the only 5 in a row I ever got on rams in HP.  I was bumped up to A class and then all I heard was winning about who was this sandbagger.  What a laugh, I was shooting a “real” hunter rifle and they were shooting their $1,000.00 plus rifles and they were calling me a sandbagger.  

   I eventually cobbled together a real silhouette rifle, I bought a used Rem. 722 and had a takeoff 700 varmint barrel in 308 screwed on it.  I also managed to find a deal on a Rem 700 in 300 Savage for a legal “Hunter” rifle.  I had a lot of fun with the above mentioned rifles and even managed to make it to AA with them.  

   I still kept hearing some folks shooting the $1,000.00 plus rifles referring to me as a sandbagger.  Hell, if I could have afforded the high dollar rifles they were shooting maybe I could have made it to AAA or Master.  

   And then the NRA killed the Hunter Rifle class and that with the fact that I got tired of being insulted all of the time soured the sport for me.  I have not shot a HP Silhouette match for several years.  Actually I never was a good enough shot to be a successful sandbagger.  

   Now several years later I can afford quality rifles I have discovered BPCR and that is where I am.  When I first saw them shooting off of cross sticks I thought “how can they possibly miss?”  I sure found out how easy it is to miss.  

   Getting back to the subject of Sportier Air Rifle, I recently purchased an RWS 54 along with a Leupold 6.5X20 with express purpose of participating in air rifle silhouette matches.  Maybe I will just take up squirrel hunting instead.

[gator64]

I agree with Medbill regards the rule changes for Hunting class.  

It should have remained the basic "Walmart" rifle, out of the box, period.  That's a level playing field and let the "smithed" guns go into the Open class.  

Hunting rifle now is basically an Open Rifle with a 2 # trigger and a different weight limitation.  

Once again we have taken a good idea and complicated it to the point it will intimidate the Nubie.

My 2-cents
Ed  

[shootnchef]

I agree that the changes to hunter rifle have been a little strange in the past years.  But has anyone considered the fact that the numbers of perfect scores has not went up by any drastic amount.
Point in fact Cathy Winstead's 2 40/40 matches were fired with a hunter rifle that meets international guidelines.  That requires that the rifle weighs only 7lbs 11oz, has a factory stock and a 2lb single stage trigger.  

So if these new stocks and triggers are that much of an advantage I just don't see it.

[genphideaux]

shootnchef,

Are you saying  it's the shooter not the gun, say it is'nt so :roll:

This would mean trigger time = success :shock:

The things you learn on the web :-D

Dawg

[Medbill]

So if these new stocks and triggers are that much of an advantage I just don't see it.

Shootinchef,

If you shot a spring gun and a PCP in air rifle silhouette you would get it after pulling the trigger once.  Your going from a recoiling rifle to recoiless.

Big difference and the money grubbing NRA screws up another class.

Billy

PS:  Still no reply to my email to the NRA.  Maybe if I send it back in one of their handout request letters someone will read it.

[GeoNLR]

.

So if these new stocks and triggers are that much of an advantage I just don't see it.

Chef,

Did you not get to see me shoot this year in FL? Man you are out of touch. Before I went and got my 1712 w/ 2 stage trigger I was a mere AA shooter. Well now..I'm a "solid" to "weak" AA shooter...see the difference. Sure there was a year more of practice and putting in an air rifle range under my house...but hey... I am simply trying to do whatever it takes to avoid the "spotting board"

Chicken

[gator64]

Shootnchef

I was not particularly addressing the scores as the fact that the newcomer will see this equipment and be intimidated to the point of not even getting involved.  Agreed Cathy, Troy and some others possibly could hit 40/40 with a slingshot because you and I both know "it's the shooter not the gun" but that is usually not the approach of a new shooter.  I have held forth for years that the "basic .22" can outshoot the shooter. Meanwhile, the field is level and the difference is practice and skill development.  No gun will hit 40/40 if it isn't pointed at the target.  I repeat: Once again we have taken a good idea and complicated it to the point it will intimidate the Nubie.  I gotta go practice with my old 541T now for Winnsboro.

[PJ Smyth]

Hi guys From Australia
Sounds like you guys need to have more of a say in the rules of your sport. That Walther is nothing like a hunting  rifle. The wonderful thing about Silhouette is that we don't or sholdn't  be shooting in thick straight jacket  vests, like the shooters in the olympics and the feild rifle shooters do.its cheating.  The classes should be,  Custom classes in  Air Rifle, Rimfire (smallbore 22cal)and  High powered Centre fire Custom Class, with a weight restriction ect, as it is now and then an off the shelf Hunting rifle Classes. No Adjustable  check pieces,  with trigger, weight  and barrel  thickness and length restrictions.  Make this shooting disapline about the shooter, not  cheeting with straight jackets and sudo  equipment  by adding  sling attachments and the like.
Count yourself so lucky guys, because you can get a largevarity of  equipment. Here in Australia its getting so hard to get air rifles that will do the job for silhouette, without getting the likes of the Walther's Anschutz and Fienwerkbau P70 outdoor target. all costing about $4,000 Plus, with scope and mounts. Thats my Two Bobs worth !

[RamSlammer]

G/Day All
               Just to let you know here in Aus we have one class , it is "Any Air rifle,any calibre,with a maximum weight of 7 KG (15 pound 6.913 ounces) including sights, that is completely self contained at the time of firing." thats simple isn't it ! Maybe you need to delete a few classes as there isn't much difference between any pcp rifles. Phil you should have a look at the BSA Hornet from Vic Arms, they are $880 Aus. you might be able to get a few dollars for that old side lever.

[Dino C]

Billy,
The whole crowd at the Silhouette Nationals at Ben Avery gave the NRA folks more of same. When all was said and done, it seems they were considering a reversal. One can only hope they learned something about rule changes.

Regards, Dino

[Medbill]

Hi Dino,

Thanks for that info!  Warms my heart.

Can't wait to have our first match and I can't wait till I have enough extra dough stashed away to order another set of Stimson Targets.  Man these things are great!

Billy

[Slowstdy]

I think it’s time that people started to look at the whole picture. None of the manufactures have brought new Springer’s to market or it seems are Springer’s been developed; the best Springer’s were designed a long time ago. You have to get a Springer Tuned to make it completive. PCP’s shoot completively out of the box. (At least the one’s I have did, my Springer didn’t).
At the Southern Nationals (Air guns were actually shot (90 people in total over 2 days)) there were a good number of PCP guns shot in the sporter class, and at least 4 of the new Walther “Hunter Cheater Guns ”. How many people at the silhouette nationals giving their opinion Shot Air Rifle Silhouette? Don’t get me wrong there were a number of people voicing their opinion at the Southern Nationals as well, I have been told that there were a lot more shooters at the Southern Nationals than the Nationals, having nor attended the nationals I cant say. May be it’s time for a vote. I think the NRA should consider making a sporter class for the Antique Springer's but it should look and see how many new shooters the PCP guns have brought into the game, not just into the sporter class, all classes, also the renewed interest in Air Rifle Silhouette.
I would like to know how many people making all the comments in this topic have competed this year. 1: In Air silhouette. 2: shot Springer's and PCP. No excuses or BS Just the facts.
I will start, from my score book. Springer & PCP, 7 Outdoor Matches, at least 10 indoor matches.
Thanks Dave C
A.K.A. Limey

[GeoNLR]

I think it’s time that people started to look at the whole picture. None of the manufactures have brought new Springer’s to market or it seems are Springer’s been developed; the best Springer’s were designed a long time ago. You have to get a Springer Tuned to make it completive. PCP’s shoot completively out of the box. (At least the one’s I have did, my Springer didn’t).
At the Southern Nationals (Air guns were actually shot (90 people in total over 2 days)) there were a good number of PCP guns shot in the sporter class, and at least 4 of the new Walther “Hunter Cheater Guns ”. How many people at the silhouette nationals giving their opinion Shot Air Rifle Silhouette? Don’t get me wrong there were a number of people voicing their opinion at the Southern Nationals as well, I have been told that there were a lot more shooters at the Southern Nationals than the Nationals, having nor attended the nationals I cant say. May be it’s time for a vote. I think the NRA should consider making a sporter class for the Antique Springer's but it should look and see how many new shooters the PCP guns have brought into the game, not just into the sporter class, all classes, also the renewed interest in Air Rifle Silhouette.
I would like to know how many people making all the comments in this topic have competed this year. 1: In Air silhouette. 2: shot Springer's and PCP. No excuses or BS Just the facts.
I will start, from my score book. Springer & PCP, 7 Outdoor Matches, at least 10 indoor matches.
Thanks Dave C
A.K.A. Limey

I have to agree with a KEY point Limey makes... the intrest generated by the rifles alone was worth all the BS. Example - Our local club- I brought a new TX200 springer out and let some guys shoot it at the smallbore animals, no one gave a rat's arse when I sold that rifle. Then I brought out a PCP sporter AA 400, when I went to sell it, had (3) buyers locally that were "in line" and it sold to a local gentleman who is now "involved" in NRA air rifle silhouette. Same guy had seen/shot the springer. The PCP got him off the fence. How many other across the country are now "involved"? More than if the rule was left alone, I can add that far.

Take a step back and ask your self "what's good for the game?" Shoot your springer in sporter if you want, but why not let the sport grow? As you stand on the smallbore line today, how many 541's do you see? Some sure, but why all the annies and etc. They cost 4-5x as much when both were new. Do the annies possible give you an advantage? Just a point to ponder.

A $600 PCP sporter that can be shoot in Sporter and Open is apealing to a new shooter, Peroid!

Chicken George

[K2]

Hi George

You should do whatever brings in new shooters to your local match.  Looking over the results of the 2005 Southern Nationals you will see that the Hunter class is on par score wise with the Standard class and sometimes scores are better.  From this one can reasonably conclude that there is no real difference between the two.  

In my local area a fellow showing up with a much better set up than the locals use does lower participation.  I have witnessed it firsthand many times.  Now I think those that don't show are wimps but to make the match viable I need their entries.  There is no simple solution that doesn't evoke lots of controversy.  Personally I have always felt the shooting sports are big enough to allow for a true bargain area, but this has proven very difficult to maintain.  People push the rules all the time and over time a bargain area gets indistinguishable from a full target gun area of a sport.  All of the annies are sold because the buyer believes it will help his score (whether it does or not doesn't seem to matter).  The 4 to 5 x the cost is in my area at least detrimental to getting newbies shooting.  at least that is what they say when I ask them if they are interested.  

The bigger question for me is why is it so hard to carve out a low dollar area of ANY shooting sport and maintain it that way.  This is by no means an indictment of silhouette, all the shooting sports suffer from the same problem.  I think we can agree that more shooting a given sport is a better situation than fewer shooting that sport.  Once you see people shooting their "sporter" in the standard class and winning, clearly their is no significant difference between the two.  

Anyway this is not a controversy that is going to go away any time soon.  I wish you a great season no matter how things shake out.  

I think it’s time that people started to look at the whole picture. None of the manufactures have brought new Springer’s to market or it seems are Springer’s been developed; the best Springer’s were designed a long time ago. You have to get a Springer Tuned to make it completive. PCP’s shoot completively out of the box. (At least the one’s I have did, my Springer didn’t).
At the Southern Nationals (Air guns were actually shot (90 people in total over 2 days)) there were a good number of PCP guns shot in the sporter class, and at least 4 of the new Walther “Hunter Cheater Guns ”. How many people at the silhouette nationals giving their opinion Shot Air Rifle Silhouette? Don’t get me wrong there were a number of people voicing their opinion at the Southern Nationals as well, I have been told that there were a lot more shooters at the Southern Nationals than the Nationals, having nor attended the nationals I cant say. May be it’s time for a vote. I think the NRA should consider making a sporter class for the Antique Springer's but it should look and see how many new shooters the PCP guns have brought into the game, not just into the sporter class, all classes, also the renewed interest in Air Rifle Silhouette.
I would like to know how many people making all the comments in this topic have competed this year. 1: In Air silhouette. 2: shot Springer's and PCP. No excuses or BS Just the facts.
I will start, from my score book. Springer & PCP, 7 Outdoor Matches, at least 10 indoor matches.
Thanks Dave C
A.K.A. Limey

I have to agree with a KEY point Limey makes... the intrest generated by the rifles alone was worth all the BS. Example - Our local club- I brought a new TX200 springer out and let some guys shoot it at the smallbore animals, no one gave a rat's arse when I sold that rifle. Then I brought out a PCP sporter AA 400, when I went to sell it, had (3) buyers locally that were "in line" and it sold to a local gentleman who is now "involved" in NRA air rifle silhouette. Same guy had seen/shot the springer. The PCP got him off the fence. How many other across the country are now "involved"? More than if the rule was left alone, I can add that far.

Take a step back and ask your self "what's good for the game?" Shoot your springer in sporter if you want, but why not let the sport grow? As you stand on the smallbore line today, how many 541's do you see? Some sure, but why all the annies and etc. They cost 4-5x as much when both were new. Do the annies possible give you an advantage? Just a point to ponder.

A $600 PCP sporter that can be shoot in Sporter and Open is apealing to a new shooter, Peroid!

Chicken George

[GeoNLR]

"You should do whatever brings in new shooters to your local match.  

 The 4 to 5 x the cost is in my area at least detrimental to getting newbies shooting.  at least that is what they say when I ask them if they are interested.  

The bigger question for me is why is it so hard to carve out a low dollar area of ANY shooting sport and maintain it that way.  "



That is why I personally feel that CZ has done a fantastic job in the firearms industry. Hammer forged barrels, threaded actions, trigger that can be easily adjusted (and modified for $14), all this for around $300.

To any new shooter that questions that, shoot an annie off the bench, then show him the ~1"-1.5" group that the cz can shoot at the rams and say " Here, now the rest is up to you" Explain that the equipment that we buy is as much as a part of our hobby as any thing. Once they are experienced, they to may want to experiment and etc.

CZ's have brought many NEW shooters to the sport in a time of "equipment races" in small bore. Let's not question the posibility of a mfg comming out with the EQ. in a $300 PCP "sporter" that will get some guys off the fence. Let's not be chicken little when we could possibly looking at a re-birth (A.K.A. gift horse)

Thanks again for some intresting points to ponder,

Chicken

[Hornetx60]

I know of 3 new shooters to the sport of Air rifle Silhouette since the rule was changed to allow the PCP guns in the Sporter class. A father and son and a friend of mine that now shoots regularly. The main reason is they were able to buy one gun that they could shoot competitively in both sporter and open class. So in the long run the cost was lower. Yup they bought the Walther Hunter and as far as I know none of them has made master class yet. SO it is still the shooter and not the gun that does the shooting.  This change has brought more shooters to the sport and more of the existing shooters are shooting more categories because many shooters don't own target guns. To answer Dave's poll question I have shot 28 air entries so far this year. I have also shot 42 entries in small bore and a few HP Match's. I wonder just how many match's some of the louder voices on this issue have actually shot. How much are these individuals actually involved in the sport other than their own club..ie State, regional or national level matches or even traveling a couple of hours to support other clubs? I know many of you are honestly involved and love this game as I do. The problem is there are some that only get involved in the controversial issues to "stir the pot" when they really don't even support the sport. Bill Robinson

[Medbill]

I shoot whenever I can and hold ratings in BPCR, smallbore, Open class air rifle, and the original sporter class as well as air pistol silhouette.  I think I have made it to about 6 matches so far this year?  I have also just purchased a set of Mike Stimson's reset targets so we can start hosting some matches in southern NY.

As far as everything else about people that don't shoot or contribute to the game I can only say ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ same old line.

Lets see how many matches and how far you can travel with a chronically ill loved one at home or in the hospital since 2001.  Why does matter if a person goes to many shoots or the Nationals?  Does someone that can't or doesn't want to travel around the country not have a voice?  Does doing so make you something special?  Maybe in your own mind it does but in reality it doesn't.  We're all NRA members and we all pay the same dues.  One member, one vote thats the way it should be.

I shoot for fun, my scores and ratings are not who and what I am.  I stand up against back door rule changes and I will always do so no matter who tries to bully me into shutting up and taking it from behind.   :eek:

  <---rule change, way to go NRA!  Once its gone I'll look into shooting NRA matches.  Till then its "fun" shoots with cool prizes.   You get people into the game by #1 making it affordable, #2 making it fun, #3 don't forget the first two.

[Slowstdy]

Hi Billy
At the start of this thread you were complaining that the rules were changed by people that didn’t shoot the game, see quote below, have you now changed your tune? do you shoot Air Rifle Silhouette?

“Another thing I'd like to see happen is for all the members of the silhouette committee to be required to attend a match in every silhouette discipline at least once. This means actually participating in the match so they can get a hands on experience in regards to the game they are charged with ruling over. Spend some time talking to the shooters face to face, see and use the gear and listen to the shooters thoughts and concerns. No need to bring a rifle I'm sure someone would be more than happy to loan them one. This goes for anyone else out there with any interest in coming to a match to see what this silhouette game is all about. You’ll find a friendly bunch even if we don’t always agree and I bet everyone has at least two rifles with him or her as well as plenty of spare ammo.”

Cheers Dave C. A.K.A. Limey

[eeleater]

Let me put in my $.02 worth.

This last winter I made a trade and got a FWB 300- knowing there was no AR silhouette anywhere near me, but knowing it would be good practice.  It has been good practice, and has lead to me adding AR silhouette to our local matches (which I run).  One new shooter coming for this so far- but I anticipate more in the future- including some 4 H shooters.

I went to the Southern Nationals for the first time this year- and went early for the AR and shot the FWB 300 in the target class, and my friend John Rainey shot in the Hunter class- also with a springer.  There were only 1 or 2 other springers being shot that first day.  I was not shooting the second day so not sure about Open class.

I had a chance to shoot a PCP for the first time.  
I was impressed with the lock time and the ease of 'cocking' and loading, as well as the true lack of recoil.  No question in my mind I was at a real disadvantage with the FWB 300- primarily due to the time and motion it takes to cock and load.  

I plan on continuing to shoot the FWB 300- but I also wonder if my having even that gun at the local matches will discourage others from bring out "what they have".   I do not know a way around this.  That is why we have different classes- but how many are enough?

I do know this- I can afford to let someone showing some interest shoot my AR in a match- pellets are cheap.   If I did have a PCP the new shooter would shoot better- and be interested in continuing.  For this reason I believe an affordable accurate PCP (or single pump pneumatic?) could bring in more shooters.

Perhaps instead of bemoaning the rule change and the cost of the top of the line guns we need to be talking about what outfit to have to get  the new shooters started.

Jeff Thiele

[Medbill]

Slowstdy,

Read both my posts again they will answer both your questions.  

I'll make it easy for you though since you obviously didn't read them too closely.  The NRA is apparently listening to the shooters, if that is the case then yes I am changing my tune.  In regards to me shooting silhouette yes I do and I enjoy it very much, I've shot more silhouette over the last two years than I have Field Target or any other shooting sport.

Don't make it easier, train and practice more we're becoming a nation of marshmallows instead of rifleman.  

I bet new shooters are lining up in droves to lay out the 1k to get started with a PCP rifle. :-D

I do see a place for the PCP hunter rifle, a PCP hunter rifle class.  I'm not for banning them I am for including them while not excluding another type of rifle that was there first because some can't shoot Master class scores in it.  Because they either lack the skill and or discipline to shoot it well.  I hope they do have a class for it because I would love to break out my AA410E or FX2000 or S200.  Shooting a spring gun well is a hard won discipline and I think those that can do it deserve to have they're class back.

Billy

[sillywetshooter]

"Yup they bought the Walther Hunter and as far as I know none of them has made master class yet."

Hey Hornetx60   that just means they shot an easier to shoot accurate gun and still couldn't improve their classification , sounds like the three people you know just don't practice enough . my first match i was ever in i shot  a tuned R9 and a month later i received a daystate crx as a gift and guess what ? without an ounce of practice my score doubled from my first match and next time  5 shots better than the last so you obviously just don't get it pcp has a large advantage over springer period, any spring gun shooter who shoots scores competitively with pcp shooters shouldn't be made to feel like they haven't accomplished anything because they have!!! and should be acknowledged. and not have their class taken away or corrupted by people who want short cuts to success. stop this silly lowering of standards so lazy people can share in the spoils of those who put in the hard work for real. people who spend the time shooting thousands of pellets , pratcice practice practice!!! just my 2 cents worth but  i totally agree with Billy Lo.

[K2]

Sillywet and Medbill have a good idea with a PCP Sporter class.  This would allow the new PCP guns a place to play and would not overnight obsolete everyones Springer.  Springers are much more difficult to shoot than the PCPs in many respects.  Loading takes more work and more time, and the recoil of the spring and the occilations make follow thru much more of a factor.  

Here is a quote from the NRA's qualification program on Light Rifle.  
" Many shooters do not own a special target rifle, but thoroughly enjoy shooting and over-the-counter, .22 caliber field and sporting rifle.  If you are one of the these shooters, NRA light rifle shooting is for you."

Clearly some understand the need for a over the counter gun sport.  Hanging on to that idea seems to be the hard part.  Anytime you change the rules and obsolete the vast majority of equipment already in use, you create instant controversy.  Adding a new class would not have caused an uproar.  

"Yup they bought the Walther Hunter and as far as I know none of them has made master class yet."

Hey Hornetx60   that just means they shot an easier to shoot accurate gun and still couldn't improve their classification , sounds like the three people you know just don't practice enough . my first match i was ever in i shot  a tuned R9 and a month later i received a daystate crx as a gift and guess what ? without an ounce of practice my score doubled from my first match and next time  5 shots better than the last so you obviously just don't get it pcp has a large advantage over springer period, any spring gun shooter who shoots scores competitively with pcp shooters shouldn't be made to feel like they haven't accomplished anything because they have!!! and should be acknowledged. and not have their class taken away or corrupted by people who want short cuts to success. stop this silly lowering of standards so lazy people can share in the spoils of those who put in the hard work for real. people who spend the time shooting thousands of pellets , pratcice practice practice!!! just my 2 cents worth but  i totally agree with Billy Lo.

[sillywetshooter]

I forgot to mention the reason i shoot airguns besides the fact they are fun and pellets are cheaper than bullets is to improve my marksmanship skills as a smallbore silhouetter shooter , i am not a champion shooter but since i started shooting my r-9 spring gun i am more conscience of my trigger pull and hold and breathing. i can honestly say in my opinion you really only realize what a incorrect trigger squeeze and follow through feels like when you shoot a spring gun and that will carry over into smallbore shooting and when you miss an animal you swear you should have hit  then shoot at it again deeply concentrating on your trigger sqeeze and follow though and hit it you are like wow it really makes that much of  a difference , pcp have higher velocity, no recoil, sub pound and adjustable triggers and on and on with features that help the decrease the chances of the shooter to make  a mistake. I love pcp rifles and do not mean to make it soud like if you buy a pcp you will win every time and always  shoot high scores becasue they are so easy to shoot , i simply mean it is an unfair advantage for pcp shooter to shoot in a spring gun class.
Oh yeah heres an idea about promoting the sport  make your shoots FUN!! and give nice awards or prizes , did you ever see a kids face when he sees a trophy? trophys are cheap you can find cheapo prizes in lots of places , you don't have to give them away at every  match but rewards attract new shooters as well. I got away from benchrest because nobody talked , nobody laughed , too seriuos and for what ? paper punching at fifty yards , it got boring. I met a group of wackos from CT that showed me how much fun airgun silhouette can be and i enjoy that as much as smallbore .

[dave imas]

it scares the hell out of me but i'm with Chicken.  I think the pcp rifle will bring more shooters to the game.  Up until the Louisiana State Championship a few weeks ago my last air rifle match was in 1985, the California State Championship.  It was then, shooting a dual spring match rifle RWS M75, I realized I would, often, have to hold off the animal to actually hit it.  I decided right then and there I'd worked to hard on my hold to start playing silly games like that.  

I also have a spring gun.  Hasn't left my safe in 5 years.  Too much work, too hard to shoot well.  I think most folks that aren't already invested in a spring gun would say the same.  If someone just starting their air rifle career were to ask, there is no way I would suggest to them to buy a spring gun.  Why when you can buy a quality pcp for around $200 more?

The biggest challenge we have with our game today is that it is so difficult.  There is nothing wrong with making the targets easier to hit by allowing functionally accurate rifles.  That doesn't make it easier to win.  Most folks aren't that concerned with winning however, they would just like to see something fall down every now and again.  Allow the game to be easier and more people will play.  And as always, the most skilled shooters will win regardless.  For those of you that insist on the challenge of shooting a spring gun, no one is saying you can't.  One can shoot excellent scores with a spring gun...  just much more work...  much harder to do...
dave imas

[Medbill]

Hi Dave,

Nothing to be scared about at all, everyone's thoughts matter and honestly I don't bite.

You stated my case perfectly about spring guns being harder to shoot and too much work to learn to shoot well (for some people).  That's what happened to you, didn't happen to me.  Do you have a match rifle to compete with in match rifle class?  How about Open?  My first adult PCP sporter air gun set me back a 1k (FX2000) including the scuba tank and fittings.  I'd love to know where a good, accurate PCP can be found and someone can get into the precharge game for $200.  The closest I know of is the AAS200.  If there is one out there (NOT FROM CHINA) I wanna buy one to have it on hand at matches!

I'd like to know if anyone keeps track of the break down of number of shooters in each classification.  Just to see how much of a paper work nightmare those that are against a PCP Sporter class say match directors are up against by having a new class.  My bet, hardly any.  Most guys I've seen shoot either Open or Sporter with a spring gun.  I've only been to one match where a shooter was using a low powered match rifle.

Thanks for your thoughts Dave and glad your enjoying the game.  If the rule does change there is still a place for you to shoot, its in the open class.

Billy

[nomad]

Apropos of nothing at all, the most heavily attended air rifle silhouette match of the year (AFAIK) was the Louisiana State Championship recently held in conjunction with the 'Southern Nationals' (The Louisiana Smallbore State Championships) at Winnsboro, LA.
I believe that there were over 80 competitors.
More people competed in Open than any other class.

Bill Motl of Texas won Target and Sporter classes.
Some fellow name of Imas from Washington state won Open...  :wink: