What do you expect from a gunsmith?

[Judson]

I have seen several posts concerning gunsmiths and gunsmithing.    I would like to know what you expect from a gunsmith as far as customer service and all that stuff.    I make my living building custom rifles and doing repair work.    I value customer input as in particular with the building of a custom rifle it should be an enjoyable experience.    Lets hear what you have to say both good and bad is welcome!

[jhm]

Being straight forward on the time line to do the work, a good friend of mine was having a rifle built from some out of state gunsmith who promised him that this would be done in a particular amount of time and wasnt even close, my friend ended up using another rifle he had to go on the hunt he was having the rifle built for, at this time he dont even want to discuss the matter, i dont know if it is being handled by his lawyers or not but I do recall seeing all the papers on what was to be done and when it was to be completed along with the down payment and cost.   JIM

[gunnut69]

Truth.  And fairness,,  that's all anyone can ask of another.  Time lines are flexible, whether we want them to be or not!  A few years ago I lost over 6 months totally and another 6 months I was at less than 50%.  I had an ulcer from a brown recluse bite on a leg.  The folks I was doing things for were understanding but I was forthright.  If they wanted to go elsewhere they only owed for materials..  No one took me up on the offer but I knew it was going to be a while..  If you don't believe someone, why the hx;; would trust him(her) with your rifle??  I've thought about it a lot and thought the most important thing wass trust but it is truth.  Without truth there can be no trust.

[beemanbeme]

Dependability and honesty.  The time line is very important to me.  And I believe it is the smith's responsibility to CALL ME FIRST  if something goes awry.  If I have to be the one that calls, and then I get some song and dance, I feel its that.  A BS song and dance.  
In the case of the spider bite, every customer that I had work on hand for or work promised, would have  been called as soon as possible.  If possible, I would have contacted some other smith(s) whose work I trusted and, with the customers okay, I would have jobbed the work out to them.

[lefty o]

honesty and quality work. no surprises, and the finished gun should at the very least be in as good of condition as when it was dropped off for work.

[tomaldridge]

Honesty and objectivity.  Give me a timeline, revise it if need be, but don't lie.  Honest smiths do quality work, and charge fair prices.  The best listen to an idea, present pros & cons, and offer opinions.  A smit who says "You don't want to do that" loses something.

[Racepres]

I have to agree w/ all of the above posts especially the "honesty" part... IMHO it may be wise to remember to make it a point NOT to know it all ,, even if yer sure you do, it may be wise to keep that information (and the attitude that goes with it) to yourself. If virtually anyone even implies that you need to work on yer "people skills" then like it or not ... you absolutely do.. Just my couple a bits.... Marty

[Iowegan]

Being a retired gunsmith, I can assure you many of the problems come from the customer, not the gunsmith. It was not unusual for a customer to demand his gun put first in line (especially when my back-log exceeded 30 days). I never caved in because that meant all my other customers would suffer a longer wait.

Customers don't understand. I got badgered into doing repair estimates. When I actually got into a gun to repair it and found additional problems, I would call the owner and explain. Many times they would say; "But you said it was only going to cost X dollars". or "Why didn't you tell me before?" What the customers don't understand is the amount of time required to tear a gun down to inspect it, and even then you can't possibly know if there are hidden problems. Many customers would insist that you tear the gun down for a price quote then decide not to have the gun repaired, leaving you with unrecoverable labor costs. There were many times when I had to wait for several weeks to get parts. I put them on order and called to check status but had no control of when or if I would receive the parts. Who gets the blame when a customer has to wait weeks for his gun to be repaired?

I remember one incident when I repaired a Rem 700 BDL. The customer came to pick up the gun and went into orbit claiming I switched stocks on his gun. He threatened me with a law suit and got down right nasty. A few days later, he returned to the shop with a small gift and an apiology. Seems his fancy stock was in his gun safe on another 700. That made my day!

Every business transaction requires honesty and truthfulness for both parties. When a customer tries to screw you, it doesn't take long before you develop self protection techniques. I learned to give high estimates so when the customer came to pick up his gun and the bill was lower than he expected, he was a happy camper. I also devised a "condition form". With the customer watching, I would give the gun a good visual and document scratches, dings, grips, stocks, sights, etc and had the customer sign the form. This stopped alligations of "It wasn't like that when I brought it in".

I ran a very sucessful shop for over 30 years, with most of my work from repeat customers. I was always honest and tried my best to meet customer needs. Despite my best efforts, there were some customers that I just couldn't please.

Integrity is a gunsmith's most important asset. It includes honesty, fairness, timeliness, and doing the best quality workmanship you can. At the same time, keeping a watchful eye for customer honesty.

[beemanbeme]

Oh, it is so easy to blame it on the customer:  He's stupid, he's dumb, he doesn't know what he's talking about, he doesn't understand.   Hey, if he had all the answers, he wouldn't be in the shop talking to a supposed expert.  
Having to order parts that may be hard to come by, finding hidden problems are called part of doing business.  If, after 15 or 20 minutes of being a gun smith, you didn't learn to include that possibility in your conversation with the customer, then I don't think its the customer with a problem.

[gunnut69]

It sounds nice to say the smith should include a statement that 'it takes time to get parts' in the conversation but getting it included in what the customer remembers is a totally different animal.  Most people DON'T know what they want or whats wrong with their gun.  Usually I don't either!!  But I know how to find out!  That said most customers are fairly aware and usually understanding.  The ones who aren't can go elsewhere.

[Keith L]

The shop I deal with has a smith that I have become friends with.  I trust his judgement, and would take him at his word that unexpected problems came up, or that I had to wait for parts etc.  That relationship is worth a few extra dollars on purchased and repairs.  It might sound funny, but that relationship is what I look for first when choosing who I do business with.  I do all the repairs and modifications that I have the tools and knowledge to do,  and trust him with the rest.  No Walmart guns here.

[NimrodRx]

"Every business transaction requires honesty and truthfulness for both parties."  Very well said Iowegan.

"Oh, it is so easy to blame it on the customer: He's stupid, he's dumb, he doesn't know what he's talking about, he doesn't understand. Hey, if he had all the answers, he wouldn't be in the shop talking to a supposed expert.
Having to order parts that may be hard to come by, finding hidden problems are called part of doing business. If, after 15 or 20 minutes of being a gun smith, you didn't learn to include that possibility in your conversation with the customer, then I don't think its the customer with a problem."  Even better said Beem.

[alsatian]

(1) The gun smith will not damage the gun, unless he warns me that the repair I'm requesting may damage the gun (and in most instances, I'm guessing this should not be a risk).  (2) the gun smith will not return the gun to me in a condition known to be dangerous without warning me of the danger (of course, the dangerous condition may be unknown to the gun smith -- bad head spacing -- and then I see no such obligation).  (3)the gun smith will alert me to maintenance problems with the gun -- hidden rusting areas or other problems -- which the gun smith notices.  Generally, I think a gun smith should notice some things from an inspection of the gun which I might not notice and alert me to these matters.  (4) If I ask for some work to be done on my gun which is ill advised, the gun smith should advise me why this is a bad idea.  If I persist in my plan, then I guess it is OK for the gun smith to do what I say, if it is deemed safe (gun smith may refuse to lighten a trigger to 0.5 LBS for a hunting rifle, for example).  (5) If I ask for some work to be done on my gun, and the gun smith is aware of attractive alternatives which serve the same purpose, I expect the gun smith to advise me of these alternatives.  In general, I assume a gun smith knows a whole lot more about guns than I do and that I will get the benefit of this knowledge when I interact with the gun smith.

I have had a number of things done by gun smiths.  The price is not cheap, but it isn't expensive either (auto maintenance, now that is expensive).  For example, I have the gun smith mount my rifle scopes at about $20/scope.  On a new rifle this might be simple enough for me to do, but what is the point saving $20 mounting a $500 scope?  What if I get it wrong and trouble happens in the field?  I have had gun smith install sling swivels on two rifles, again not cheap.  At the same time, when I have paid for this work to be done, the gun smiths did do much of what I describe above.  My view is that I'm paying for some of this when I pay "high gun smithing prices."

[Judson]

You bring up many important points.    In our shop we check virtually all guns in for major work for safety and inform the customer if problems are found.    If a major problem such as excessive head space is found then we want it corrected if the customer whats us to work on the gun.   When a gun leaves the shop, my name and reputation goes out the door with it.
    Any gun worked on other then something like mounting a scope are test fired and all are checked for proper function.    As a gunsmith it is my responsibility to make sure the guns I work on are safe and in proper working order.    It is also my responsibility to inform the customer of any problems I find so that when they come to pick up their gun they do not have any rude surprises such as a larger then expected bill.
    Right now on repair we are running about a 3 mo back log and on custom rifles almost a year.    We tell the customer this and let them decide if they are willing to waite.    Usually I tell them a bit longer then I expect and estimate price some what high.    A lower then expected bill and a gun finished sooner then expected makes for a happy customer.    
    If we damage something, dinged up screws for example, we replace them at our cost.    Any gun that comes apart is completely cleaned before it goes back together.    One point both Barbara and I always keep in mind is that we are in business because of our customers and our business is building and fixing guns.    With out happy and repeat customers I do not have guns to fix or to build.    My customers are my most important asset!

[5Redman8]

Here is my take.

I have a GREAT gunsmith near my home town.  He is honest and VERY helpful.  He is not the custom gun builder I would like to have just down the road but he is one heck of a gun repair man.

He knows I like to tinker and at times I get in over my head.  He always takes the time to help me fix it or he will fix it and show me how.  Many times he has replaced a screw or ball bearing and he will say you don't owe me a thing.  It took me time to get to this point.  Had him do a couple rechamber jobs, repairs, etc.  Even during that time, his prices would always shock me.....on the low side.

Having him so close is very comforting when something goes wrong during hunting season.  

HONESTY and attention to when the gun is truly needed are the important things to me.  If I don't need my gun that weekend, i do not mind being passed up by the guy that does need his.

Kyle

[Rogue Ram]

I agree with all the above.

Having been royally screwed by a gunsmith who has now vanished (Pat Gamman if you are out there send me an email and I'll tell you where to mail the check  :?  ) I think the honesty/integrity issue ranks with standing behind your work. The aforementioned person worked in a big shop in the SF Bay area. He had my custom there re-working it when he quit returning calls and closed up shop. I managed to get the rifle back when many many others did not see theirs again. My rifle's new stock was totally destroyed, my scope trashed, and the gun for whatever reason had the snot shot out of it. All said and done I lost over $1000 on the deal, having it rebuilt AGAIN and it STILL wouldn't shoot.

The person who rebuilt it is a peach of a fellow and a good friend. HOWEVER, the gun would not shoot. He won't make it right, saying "you pays your money, you takes your chances".  "I" am not the problem with the gun, the gun is the problem and its issues are too lengthy to go into here. I'll use my friend for some simple things but never again for anything requiring precision lathe type work and/or custom building.  

Be honest, don't screw anyone, do the job right (and hey, far as I am concerned if doing it right takes time, knock yourself out), and stand behind your work. I won't pay for a custom again unless Mr. Smith can prove to my satisfaction that it shoots first.

Good luck,

RR

[Judson]

This is not a plug for my shop nor an add!!!!    I see this stuff all the time and it makes me sick!!!    If you want send me your rifle, I will check it over and tell you what is wrong.     If I find some thing wrong then if you want I will fix it.    If it will still not shoot you only owe for the parts not the labor.    Now if you can not shoot that is a different story, but I will stand behind my work and provide a test target.    I expect the guns I build to shoot under 1/2" with an accuracy load however a factory gun may be tightened up but you can not expect the best accuracy with this.

[Rogue Ram]

Judson,

Do you have a website?  I suppose I could go back and check some threads to find out, but now that I think about it over the last year or so I don't recall ever seeing one mentioned so I thought I'd ask.

Thanks,

RR