Author Topic: Lube/sizing the big long bullets  (Read 1375 times)

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Offline Haywire Haywood

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« on: April 11, 2005, 03:03:06 PM »
I have a Saeco lube sizer.  A bud of mine came over with Lee's 459 500gr Postell mold.  We casted a few samples up but when we went to lube/size them, they were too long to fit into the Saeco.  We ended up getting it done by jack-legging it but it wasn't optimum.

How are you guys lube/sizing your bigguns?

Ian
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Offline LAH

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2005, 05:56:44 AM »
I use my Star.
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Offline Longcruise

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2005, 07:55:46 AM »
I've been shooting most of them as cast but the lee 500 gr GC mold has been run through my lyman with no problem as long as the alloy is hard.  When i tried to push the softer bullets through the noses bulged and would not chamber.  See my post in the other thread about the lee push through to see what my solution will be in the future

Offline tomaldridge

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Lee .459-500 bullet
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2005, 10:36:47 AM »
I've been wondering if the LEE #90577  459-500 would work in my Buffalo Classic.  It is a long profile round nose, I'm not sure if it's a Postell or not.

Offline sharps4590

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2005, 02:17:53 PM »
My RCBS sizer/lubricator has taken up to 540 gr., 45 cal. bullets fine....the 540's are about it tho.  520 down is fine.

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Offline Haywire Haywood

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Re: Lee .459-500 bullet
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2005, 03:27:57 PM »
Quote from: tomaldridge
I've been wondering if the LEE #90577  459-500 would work in my Buffalo Classic.  It is a long profile round nose, I'm not sure if it's a Postell or not.


I'll be trying them sometime soon in my BC that I've got reamed to 45-90, it's going to be a few weeks tho.  What makes a postell a postell?

Ian
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Offline Lead pot

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2005, 05:36:00 PM »
My Star and RCBS will handle the 1.5" long .50 calibers ok. The Star I had to modify it a little.

Kurt
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Offline LAH

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2005, 02:06:02 PM »
A Postell is a spitzer bullet. Not sure if Postell is a place, person, or thing. I'm eating a bowl of home made soup and can't stop long enough to look it up.
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Offline Haywire Haywood

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2005, 04:13:56 PM »
I put a photo of one of the Lee 500s in the album here.  Unfortunately, I didn't allow enough room at the bottom of the pic for GBOs logo so you'll have to go to the album to see it unobstructed.

Ian
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Offline Longcruise

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2005, 03:23:02 AM »
Ian, is that the bullet that Lee calls the 3r?  Some nef shooters seem to have trouble stabilizing the 3r.  Maybe becasues the nose has too much of a radius and not enough bore ride length to it?  

Any chance you could measure the diameter of the bore ride portion of the bullet and post it along with the alloy here?

Offline Haywire Haywood

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2005, 11:11:49 AM »
Yep, that's the 3R. Any measurements off that poor example wouldn't tell you much tho.  I just poured a quick few out of whatever was in my furnace at the time to have a look at them.  I'm not very good at casting the heavyweights.  Wrinkles and lines abound.  If you look in the picture, you can see the line where the 458 sizer stopped sizing just above the top lube groove.  I suppose that would be where the bore rider portion ends.  I dunno.

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Offline tomaldridge

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Lee Postell bullet key-holing
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2005, 10:14:24 AM »
After 30 years of reloading and agonizing over the cost of bullets, I gave in and bought that Lee .459 mold, as well as a .410 for my .41 Mag.  The big bullets were much harder to cast, but I made 50 rounds of each.  I sized and lubed both with the Lee push-through dies, and re-lubed w/Liquid Alox to ensure good coverage.  The .41 Mag shoots well.  The .45-70 is key-holing at 25 yards.  It's not the rifle.  I've shot  MOA out to 200 yards with jacketed bullets.  Could the .457 sizing die be too small?  Jacketed bullets are .458.  What if I just made some bullets, lubed them, and loaded them up?

Offline Longcruise

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2005, 01:04:03 PM »
Quote
Could the .457 sizing die be too small? Jacketed bullets are .458. What if I just made some bullets, lubed them, and loaded them up?


Do it!  It may or may not solve the problem.  Sorry to be mr. negative, but I'm betting it won't solve your problem! :(

Those big black powder size bullets have a bore ride nose.  That means that when you chamber the round the nose of the bullet slides into the barrel and is a bit smaller than the lands.  The reason for this design goes back to the days when only black powder was available.  The only way you can load a 500 grain bullet into a 45-70 case and still leave enough room for the powder is to have a large portion of the bullet stick out of the case.  When you set off the powder, the base of the bullet easily expands to fit the bore, even if its a thou under size.  The nose portion of the bullet, however does not respond to the pressure nearly as much as the base of the bullet.  If the nose is undersize by too much, the nose slumps or gets cockeyed in the bore.  Next, it leaves the muzzle slumped (bent!) and hits the atmosphere at about 1100 to 1600 fps.  If the bullet is a round nose it will be more forgiving than if it is a spitzer or, in the case of the Lee 3R, rather pointed.  The point of the bullet, which is now cockeyed to the airstream around it creates an "overturning moment" that exceeeds the stability provided by the gyroscopic spin of the bullet (in oother words, the airstream hits the cockeyed shape and attitude of the bullet and causes it to flip over in the airstream).

Here is a 450 grain bullet that will work great in almost any 45-70 regardless of the bore and bullet dimensions.  Only problem is it won't work with BP.  OTOH, if you aren't into bp shooting then this will work good for you.



Here are some more bore ride nose bullets.



The above site does not link very well so if it doesn't, just go to this page

http://www.mikeswillowlake.com/bpc_procedures.htm

The bullet on the far right has a near perfect fit of it's bore ride nose to the bore of my 1885 Winchester hi wall.  It is very accurate.  The bullet directly to the left of it has an undersize bore ride nose and is not as accurate but does not tumble (it's a lee mould).  If the bullet second from the right had a spitzer (3R) profile it would probably flip over too!!

That was the specific reason why I asked Haywire about the bore ride size.  No use buying if it won't fit my bore. :eek:

I have seen other posts by user's of the 3R bullet that had the same problem with the bullet tumbling.  Many of them wrote it off to twist rate, but that is NOT the problem :shock:  The problem is the fit of the bore ride nose to the lands of the barrel.  They should fit as closely as possible while still allowing you to extract a loaded round and not having to push the nose into the lands (engrave it).

BTW, notice the "modern" 500 grain lee bullet with a gas check!  This bullet tumbled in 25 yards out of a springfield trap door rifle with a .460 bore.  It shot great out of a TCR 83 single shot barrel simply because the nose fit the bore properly.

My suggestion is to either obtain a mold that will throwq a "modern" style bullet without a long bore ride nose for use with modern powder, or slug your bore and special order a bore ride nose mould that will fit your bore.

Geez, my fingers are getting tired :)

Offline Robert

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2005, 03:55:58 PM »
Could always do a 'cookie cutter' if you arent doing a lot of bullets.  Cut the web off of a fired cartridge that is the right diameter for the bullets to fit easily in the neck.  Stand the bullets up in a small pan, fill to the desired level with melted lube.  Let it cool and then just push the cartidge down over the bullet.  Continue pushing it over consecutive bullets and after 2-3 bullets, they will start coming out of the top.
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Offline warf73

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2005, 08:35:19 PM »
Here is my Lyman Postell 540gr.

I use the Lee push threw die set up on my press.

The best way I have found pouring the big bullets is to have my lead as hot as I can get it and preheat the mold. After 5 or so pouring the bullets come out full with nice sharp edges. Mind you I'm using a Lee 20lb bottom pour furnace.

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Offline Robert

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2005, 05:08:26 AM »
I am surprised you can get that big thing under the spout.  I have been thinking of modifying my Lee Pro20 so I can fit my Core Mold under it.  I opted for the 20lb furnace because of the size of my ingots....but the smaller furnace has more clearance underneath.....go figure.
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Offline 475/480

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2005, 05:19:35 PM »
My Star and Lyman have no problems with 475 cal bullets up to 540gr and .500 cal bullets up to 640gr and looks like they would take bigger bullets.
 I have cast a lot of big bullets and you need to cast hot and if hand pouring, the ladle needs to be 2" or so above the mould when pouring,this has helped me greatly in getting good fillout.

Sean

Offline tomaldridge

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Bore ride
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2005, 03:57:35 AM »
Longcruise:             Thanks for the info.  Looks like the 3R bullet has .7" of full diameter, and .7" of nose, beginning at just under .459, and decreasing gradually over the .7" My BC has a short throat, so when I loaded the bullet just off the lands, all the full diameter section of the bullet was in the case.  34.0 grns of AA5744 left plenty of room in the case.  If I get time to cast this weekend, I'll  load some without sizing.  

Just in case I can't figure this one out, who makes the mold for that 450 grn bullet you pictured in your post?

Offline Longcruise

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Lube/sizing the big long bullets
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2005, 06:46:56 AM »
Quote
Just in case I can't figure this one out, who makes the mold for that 450 grn bullet you pictured in your post?


Thats a bullet that I purcfhased from Mid Kansas bullets (they are out of business now).  The same bullet can be had from Bonus Bullets of Canon City CO.  It is probably a Saeco or RCBS mold.  If you called Bonus they would be happy to tell you.

I was able to get that bullet design in 350, 400, 450 and 500.  The 350 and 450 are the ones I tried and both worked very well.  It's not a BP design though and is probably about 16 BHN (just guessing on that).

Offline Longcruise

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« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2005, 12:25:50 PM »
An added not on the 450 bullet.  I was in my local shop today and saw a Lee mold in 450 grain that was the same as the 450 I posted above!