Author Topic: Crossbow Predjudice (Read 5499 times)

jh45gun · « **on:** April 12, 2005, 02:20:54 AM »

WI has a Conservation Congress Spring Hearing where folks can go vote on issues that may come up for change or rule changes the DNR is proposing. This is done County to County state wide. Last night there was a rule change proposed that said: " Do you favor removing the Class A, B, C, Disabled Permits abd age restrictions from the crossbow hunting regulations." In my county it was shot down Yes 2 No 42. I was one of the 2 voting for it. One idiot got up and claimed that deer could be killed at a 100 yards with a crossbow. One said it was designed as a weapon of war and never a hunting weapon which I reminded him that so was a bow so whats your point? I also told them with todays bows and sights they are just as accurate as a crossbow. So there really is no difference between the two. Others said that the act of drawing a bow gave the deer a chance where a crossbow takes that away I reminded them that raising the bow to your shoulder takes movement also. Well no matter what I said it did not make a difference. Anyway I tried. The WI bow hunters association is death against crossbows so they really have poisoned the minds of bow hunters in the state.

jh45gun · « **Reply #1 on:** April 12, 2005, 08:23:23 PM »

State Wide votes on this issue. 13, 281 in attendance.

HUNTING WITH CROSSBOWS ( For Every one not just over 65 or disabled)

2,501 Yes
5,681 No

jh45gun · « **Reply #2 on:** April 12, 2005, 10:41:40 PM »

Posted this at the bow section be interesting to see what kind of replys I get. Jim

There was a WI Conservation Congress Meeting Last night ( April 11) and the question was about allowing any one to use a crossbow to hunt deer with in WI Now only disabled and folks over 65 can. Needless to say it was voted down in my county 43 No and 2 Yes I was one of the Yes ones State wide the Vote was:
2,501 Yes
5,681 No

A guy in our local meeting made the assine statements that crossbows were only a weapon of war never a hunting weapon? Well DUH how about bows and guns both have been used as a weapon of war and the Engish Long bow Archers were pretty darn effective.
Another made the claim that deer could be shot at 100 yards with them Now anyone knowing that the crossbow is a 40 yards and under weapon no matter what the make or model would have to laugh at this stupid statement. Yea I suppose folks have tried as they have with bows also and a bow might have a better chance as the arrow is heavier to retain some energy with crossbows expecially the ones shooting a shorter arrow or bolt the energy drops off quicker at longer ranges but are effective under normal bow ranges.

Others said that the deer had a better chance with a bow as you had to draw it back therefore showing movement and giving the deer a chance well duh you have movement when you shoulder a crossbow or a gun.

Bottom line is fellas it shoots a arrow with a bow that is horizontal instead of vertical but still shoots a arrow or bolt if you wish but some of the new crossbows use arrows as the nocks are the same as regular arrows.

Some one said well it was unfair because a crossbow could use a scope yea so can bows along with red dots and very fancy pin and peep combinations with fiber optics and without.

Todays fancy compound bows with the really precise aiming systems and the use of releases that aid in the holding back the string with less fatigue along with bows with 80% let off put the newer bows and bow accessories right into the relm of the crossbow except for the stock and being already cocked. The accuracy is there the power is there and the ease of use is there so why the cry that the crossbow is a "evil" weapon and not right for every one/ Another said that if crossbows could be used than no one would use bows anymore well I kinda doubt that there will always be folks who perfer bows. SO what are you guys afraid of???

Oh by the way I have bow hunted for years and have been very successful at it. I switched to crossbow 2 years ago because I could be cause I have a class A disabled permit to hunt in WI. Having used both I cannot see what the big deal is as the crossbow is really no more effective than a bow is. They both have their plus'es and Minus'es but they still downrange act the same with folks that know how to shoot their choice or weapons. Some mistakenly think you cannot miss with a crossbow well wake up time folks you can miss with a crossbow for the same reasons you do with a bow!

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #3 on:** April 14, 2005, 12:43:35 PM »

Crossbows have just become more legal (Mar. 4th). here in KY. The game commission voted to allow them during the regular archery season. That means it is now legal to hunt deer and turkey during the entire lengths of those seasons. The "real" bowhunters, as they like to call themselves are screaming "foul". There is a hearing coming up April 22 to decide if the vote and meeting were legal. This has been a real bare-knuckle battle. But hopefully things will calm down after the 22nd.

Mike357mag · « **Reply #4 on:** April 17, 2005, 06:49:37 AM »

For a bow hunter to cry over crossbows makes me wonder if they muzzle load hunt, are they using flint locks or modern day muzzle loaders? I guess they are using flints since the others are unfair and so much deadlier. or are they hypocrites. In virginia I believe crossbow hunting has passed I have not seen it in writing yet.

Mike H.

Ray P · « **Reply #5 on:** July 25, 2005, 04:21:45 AM »

The local news reported that it will be legal this year to hunt in Maine with a crossbow, as an alternate weapon for "regular" season. Nothing yet showing in the state hunting regs, though.

jh45gun · « **Reply #6 on:** July 25, 2005, 03:58:07 PM »

So you going to try it Ray?

dukkillr · « **Reply #7 on:** July 25, 2005, 04:09:26 PM »

To me drawing and holding at full draw without being seen is a huge challege to bow hunting. These disadvantages do not apply to crossbows. I also believe crossbows are more accurate (in general) and can shoot somewhat farther than regular bows. In KS and MO (I think) they are legal for rifle season. I would be fine with including them during muzzle loader season as well. I would vote against them being legal for general use during archery season.

Ray P · « **Reply #8 on:** July 25, 2005, 04:22:33 PM »

Strongly considering doing so;

I'm shelving the straight stick for a while, and getting back into crossbow practice with the weekly royal rounds held nearby.

jh45gun · « **Reply #9 on:** July 25, 2005, 04:47:25 PM »

Quote from: dukkillr

To me drawing and holding at full draw without being seen is a huge challege to bow hunting. These disadvantages do not apply to crossbows. I also believe crossbows are more accurate (in general) and can shoot somewhat farther than regular bows. In KS and MO (I think) they are legal for rifle season. I would be fine with including them during muzzle loader season as well. I would vote against them being legal for general use during archery season.

I will try to be polite here BUT as usual some one fed you a line of crap that every one who never has shot one believes. And if you have shot one and believe it than you are in trouble. Number one so you move to draw the bow OK you also move to shoot a rifle or a crossbow and the movement is enough that it could spook a deer in any of the methods used. Also holding back a bow is not all that difficult if you have poundage you can handle and use a release. Using a release really makes it easy to hold back a bow. ( yes I know all about bows been using them since the middle 60's First recurves and then compounds. I still own a Martin Compound.) Next is the range issue guess what a bow will shoot farther and since it has a longer arrow normally will have more energy too at longer distances so the Crap about xbows shooting out to a 100 yards is just that crap. Oh I suppose you could do it but you would have to arch them in there. xbows are great out to 40 yards. If your xbow is sighted in at 20 yards it will drop at 30 and really drop at 40 unless you have a sight set up to compensate for the drop as you do with a bow. Xbows do drop faster then bows as a rule. Most xbow companies say to limit the shots out to 40 yards max. Most guys limit it closer than that as do a lot of bow hunters some feel only good at 30 some even less. I also hear you do not need to practice like you do with a bow when you shoot a xbow. Bullcrap again you need to practice at any shooting to be any good wether it be bow, xbow, or any type of gun. That brings up your accuracy issue well I hate to tell you but some one who practices shooting a bow will be just as accurate as a xbow shooter. Xbow hunters also have the same problems a bow hunter does as far as if you hit a twig or what ever your bolt or arrow will deflect so xbow hunters face the same problems bow hunters do and the same challenges with the same limitations. I sure as hell do not know why bow hunters expect that you can use a crossbow during the rifle or muzzle loader season but not during a archery season HELLO xbows are archery equipment wether you like the fact or not. Even I as a bow hunter and now a crossbow hunter I cannot get over the concept that bowhunters have of other folks in the woods during archery season wether it be bird hunters or bear hunters or what ever. Geez its a big woods out there and every one should be able to enjoy it with out some bow hunter worrying that some one will step on his toes.

dukkillr · « **Reply #10 on:** July 25, 2005, 05:40:18 PM »

I specifically said that I'd support the use of crossbows, just not during archery season. I never said anything about 100 yards. I believe drawing and holding a bow is extremely difficult to do without being seen while aiming a rifle or xbow is significantly less so.

I never said you didn't need to practice.

I have shot a xbow, and I found it easier to pick-up than regular archery.

I'm not worried about it.

If I'd have had a vote, I'd have voted against (like the overwhelming majority of voters) because I think the line should be drawn for archery equipment at regular bows. I think xbows have true advantages over modern bows. I'd similarly vote against draw-locks.

jh45gun · « **Reply #11 on:** July 25, 2005, 06:10:44 PM »

First of all not trying to start a arguement here with you as your opinions are as welcome here as mine or anyones OK. I will ask you this, shoot one and carry one through the woods and then tell me that they have more advantages over a bow it just is not so. By that I mean if nothng else simulate a hunt with one not just shoot it at a target. In fact in a lot of instances a bow is handier. I did not say YOU said a 100 yards but that is what a lot of folks think INCLUDING some misinformed folks who have written xbow articles on the web. Movement is movement if you draw as you are bring the bow up it is not more differnce than shouldering a xbow or gun if they see the movement they do. Too many variables there to even argue about as I have seen deer stand and look at you while you could be dancing a jig. Other times a chickidee flitting around may spook them so not every thing is in concrete that is for sure. I still have a issue with bow hunters who say I do not care what you do as long as you do not do it during MY season and that could include bird hunters or bear hunters or other methods of deer hunting. Too many bow hunters are too darn self serving and use any exuse to have the woods to them self some often claiming how hard it is to kill a deer with a bow yada yada yada ect and they do not need any other things going on in the woods. Well I have killed more deer with a bow than I ever did with a gun due to the liberal season in WI and extra tags the last 15 years and it is not all that hard to do. Last year is the only year I did not kill one with a bow or xbow for the simple reason I could not afford to hunt as much or I would have. I still shot 2 with a pistol and one with rifle. The biggest issue I have is when folks say not during my season that really irks me as we should all stick together on this hunting issue as hunters but too many find reasons to divide folks on either this or other issues. No one wants anyone to bother them well it happens so I would suggest we all get used to it. Jim

dukkillr · « **Reply #12 on:** July 26, 2005, 01:53:25 AM »

I also don't buy the "we should all stick together" argument. I think part of what brings the hunting community under attack today is that we are afraid to police ourselves. We'd rather have the public see video of somebody walking up and shooting a tame elk in a pen than criticize these "hunts" ourselves.

You simply will not convince me that not having to draw and hold is not an advantage.

jh45gun · « **Reply #13 on:** July 26, 2005, 04:39:27 AM »

How did we get into shooting elk in pens?

? We do have to stick together and that is the biggest problem those that just bowhunt could care less if the Second Amendment is getting attacked as they figure it will not bother them well guess what those folks that belong to animal allies and PETA want to ban ALL hunting and there are lots of them and they have powerfull backing too. Policing our selves is good but traditionalist fighting with inlines and bow VS crossbow, Bear dog people against the baiters and the list goes on all that is not good if we are to keep our sports we better start supporting the other guy too or we may loose it all. The antis will not quit and will attack from all sides and look for any weak spot we present. Jim

Mike357mag · « **Reply #14 on:** July 26, 2005, 10:28:09 AM »

I believe compound bows give an unfair advantage with sights, releases and let off. Archery season should be for traditional bows only If you want to use a compound bow do it during a firearms season. I bet no one is suggesting this, so leave the crossbows alone and let them be used during regular archery or make everybody use traditional bows during archery season. I have used all three types traditional, compound and crossbow. If you want more of a challenge thats fine, a crossbow will only bring more people to archery. A crossbow was the first bow I ever shot yet I have used all 3 for hunting. Some people whine just because more people will be hunting, thats what we need, is more people interested in hunting. A friend at work is buying a crossbow to try hunting for his first time. This is a good thing we need more people hunting.

Mike H

jh45gun · « **Reply #15 on:** July 26, 2005, 10:39:56 AM »

Quote from: Mike357mag

I believe compound bows give an unfair advantage with sights, releases and let off. Archery season should be for traditional bows only If you want to use a compound bow do it during a firearms season. I bet no one is suggesting this, so leave the crossbows alone and let them be used during regular archery or make everybody use traditional bows during archery season. I have used all three types traditional, compound and crossbow. If you want more of a challenge thats fine, a crossbow will only bring more people to archery. A crossbow was the first bow I ever shot yet I have used all 3 for hunting. Some people whine just because more people will be hunting, thats what we need, is more people interested in hunting. A friend at work is buying a crossbow to try hunting for his first time. This is a good thing we need more people hunting.

Mike H

Agreed Mike we do need more folks hunting you bring up a good point because at the time way back when the traditional bow hunters said exactly that and did not want compounds used. Now those folks who use compounds are saying the same about crossbows. I still say and I think that you will agree using a crossbow is still not a walk in the park. They still act like any other bow with how the arrow or bolt flies ect.

Ray P · « **Reply #16 on:** August 02, 2005, 11:47:55 AM »

FYI; it seems I was one year off. Maine's crossbow season starts next year.

"Legislation was recently enacted that will allow the use of crossbows beginning in 2006 for hunting deer and bear during the firearm seasons on those species. There will be a $25.00 fee for a crossbow hunting license. Requires a person to old a valid big game hunting license to be eligible for a crossbow hunting license; requires a person to complete both a crossbow and archery hunting education course prior to obtaining a crossbow license; and prohibits the possession of a crossbow by a convicted felon until 5 years after the person is discharged from the sentence imposed."

Ray P · « **Reply #17 on:** August 02, 2005, 11:54:41 AM »

Where does crossbow hunting during regular season really pay off? Suburbia. So many small to middle-sized towns are having problems with high deer populations impacting local drivers (literally) and backyard landscapers (figuratively). Yet the areas are closed to even shotgun hunting because one cannot discharge a firearm within 300 yards of a residence.

Yes, these areas can be hunted during archery season, but not everyone wants to develop the needed skills (even those few needed to use a compound bow with gimmicks) to bowhunt successfully.

(Minor edit for spelling 8/3)

jh45gun · « **Reply #18 on:** August 02, 2005, 02:29:19 PM »

I live in a fair sized city (Superior) it is not Madison WI by No means but decent sized. We have had a suburban deer hunt here for quite a few years and deer are still a problem and we have lots of bow hunters that hunt in town. I bet out of the many bow hunters hunting there may be 5 0r 6 crossbow hunters and that is a rough estimate as I know of 4 including me. The city had to change the ordinance this year to include the words crossbow along with bow in their regulations. There may be more xbow hunters here in the future but for now not many most guys use bows. I suppose that since WI allows guys over 65 to use them now maybe the numbers will start climbing and if we can get past the Wisconsin Bow Hunters Ass. who are dead set any one using a xbow maybe more will hunt with one. Jim

mrlizzzard · « **Reply #19 on:** August 02, 2005, 03:14:01 PM »

long bow only or let xbows in reg. archery season.Good point about more hunters and suburban hunting.The deer are winning here,
lizzzard

dukkillr · « **Reply #20 on:** August 02, 2005, 04:55:03 PM »

I wouldn't object to xbows for population control hunts in areas where rifles or shotguns would be too dangerous. In both KS and MO we have urban seasons, they'd be perfect during those seasons.

Mike357mag · « **Reply #21 on:** August 03, 2005, 04:23:47 AM »

I'm curious to see if you are using a traditional bow or are you cheating by using a compound bow with let off, sights and a release, because I would not have a problem with you using that kind of set up during firearms season or on population controls hunts but they should not be allowed during archery season. Compounds make it to easy for the novice to learn archery and kill deer! explain to me why it matters what somebody elses uses is such a concern do you think they will kill all the deer and leave you none.

Mike H

dukkillr · « **Reply #22 on:** August 03, 2005, 06:56:03 AM »

I have both a bear recurve with no sights and a darton compound. I see your logic though. Here's the deal. You've got to draw the line somewhere. According to the "more people in the woods" line of logic we should allow rifles during bow season. I choose to draw the line at archery equipment with a draw lock. The two states I hunt in also choose this standard. That's not to mean you can't choose your own standard.

I like this quote:

Quote

It is easier to aim a crossbow with metal or optical sights than it is to learn instinctive handbow aiming. In addition, the crossbow's string held in the cocked position and released mechanically; the handbow archer, on the other hand, must train his body to draw, aim and loose with the consistency of a machine -- a far more difficult task.

Read the whole thing at: http://www.student.utwente.nl/~sagi/faq/crossbow.shtml

Mike357mag · « **Reply #23 on:** August 03, 2005, 10:11:17 AM »

If thats where you draw your line then maybe you shouldn't be posting in a crossbow forum. Where you got you quote from is a good source maybe you should read the whole thing:

After studying some good instructional materials and putting in about a dozen or so half-hour practice sessions at the range, a beginning crossbow user will probably know his or her weapon well enough to take deer at under 50 yards; 35-40 yards would be better starting limit, however. Of course, this assumes he can already estimate distances fairly well. This skill is important because, like handbow arrows, crossbow bolts travel at relatively low velocities. Peak velocity for hunting crossbow/bolt combinations is usually under 250 fps, which is almost in the same ballpark as compound handbows. Range estimation starts becoming important at 35-40 yards, and it gets critical beyond 50 yards.

Words like mastery, accuracy and marksmanship are relative, and therefore deceptive. A shooter who can reliably hit the vital area of a deer at 35 yards could still place dead last in a field crossbow tournament. Beginners will need quite a bit of practice to keep all their bolts within 4" of an aiming mark at 50 yards; you won't find many rifle shooters who would find this kind of performance -- 16 minutes of angle -- satisfactory
I thank its pointless to continue this thread you obviously have you opinion luckily the commonwealth of virginia does not share your opinion.

Mike H

dukkillr · « **Reply #24 on:** August 03, 2005, 10:36:51 AM »

I did read the whole thing. I wouldn't have cited it otherwise.

I posted here because I thought I could provide some insight into why the overwhelming majority of outdoorsman vote against xbows during archery season. You can disagree but to ignore the opinions of those who do not see things your way won't help you gain acceptance in places like Wisconsin where the No votes more than doubled the Yes votes.

Ever notice that the person who brings up the "you obviously have your opinion" argument is always just as set in their opinion as the one they are accusing?

Mike357mag · « **Reply #25 on:** August 05, 2005, 10:07:42 AM »

YES I'm set in my opinion, but my opinion does not limit what other people are allowed to do. I suggest you should read this thread:
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=68781

I agree with it 100% especially the conclusion apart mentioning greed

jsteele · « **Reply #26 on:** August 05, 2005, 10:34:08 AM »

Let's talk about greed.

Isn't it greedy to assume that you can get all of the reward (bowseason) without any of the work (bows)?

That would be a crossbow....

Digger · « **Reply #27 on:** August 05, 2005, 12:13:30 PM »

Quote from: jsteele

Let's talk about greed.

Isn't it greedy to assume that you can get all of the reward (bowseason) without any of the work (bows)?

That would be a crossbow....

I have bow hunted since 1964 with trad and compound. Now I've got to use a xbow because I'm disabled. How am I greedy, I get the reward of bing in the outdoors still, I practice in my range in the back yard till I am proficient with my equipment as I can be and I scout with a friend on a ATV. Your the greedy little cry baby that doesn't want me in your woods. I can hunt with a crossbow and I take no more deer than I did before I was hurt.
I think you assume too much, I worked hard get my bow skills to a high level and now I have to work harder to keep my crossbow skills up.

Digger

jsteele · « **Reply #28 on:** August 05, 2005, 12:31:22 PM »

Who has a problem with that? The crossbow is an excellent tool to level the playing field for those not physically capable of drawing a bow.

It may surprise you to know I am an advocate for crossbow use for disabled and aging hunters. Most who fall in this category are BOWhunters who can no longer bowhunt, and hopefully the advantages xbows provide help compensate for the added challenge of age and/or disability.

The push to legalize xbows for ALL hunters only hurts your cause. Why provide xbow advantages for those who are perfectly capable of drawing a bow, but choose not to? Their addition only casts suspicion on those who legitamitely require xbow assistance.

jh45gun · « **Reply #29 on:** August 05, 2005, 01:26:43 PM »

It has been shown that in the states that allow anyone to use a crossbow the problems that the bow hunters think the crossbows will cause have not come to pass. Like Digger said the crossbow is not for lazy bow hunters it takes just as much practice to keep proficiant with a crossbow as a bow. Most states have xbow for disabled or elderly already so it will not jepardize them to ask for more hunters able to use them. If nothing else it should open the way for more users as will the states or places in Canada that show it is a viable solution for any one to use one. Jim