Author Topic: Crossbow Predjudice (Read 5500 times)

jsteele · « **Reply #30 on:** August 06, 2005, 07:44:03 AM »

You do realize that more provinces in Canada do not allow crossbows than do, don't you?

jh45gun · « **Reply #31 on:** August 06, 2005, 08:24:53 AM »

So whats your point? Only 4 states in the US allow any one to use a crossbow too the rest are disabled or elderly but that is starting to change towards the positive.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #32 on:** September 12, 2005, 06:18:28 AM »

I decided to look over some of the topics on this forum because of another thread on the pot-belly stove forum.I've thought a-lot about this and why many dislike cross-bows.Leaving aside all of the arguments and bickering and such,and just dwelling on the core reason of this thread,I have come to a simple conclusion to this reason.Whenever someone who is not familiar with any type of weapon, see's another person raise a cross-bow up to his/her shoulder..the first thing that person thinks is GUN...why?...Simple...they are shouldering a weapon and rifles are shouldered...it is this ingrained image this person is seeing...rifles are brought up and shouldered...it matters not to that person that it is a cross-bow...they see the action and their brains says Gun...the vast majority of people who know nothing about bows see it this way...This perception is the reason of the negativity for them..If you think it's not..take 1 cross-bow and 1 recurve and 1 compound and put them on a table...take 20 people who have never hunted or shot a bow or gun in their lives and ask them which one of the bows on the table is the most dangerous...I would be willing to bet my next paycheck which one the majority would choose...why...it looks like a rifle with it's stock...and with the way the vast hordes of folks have been taught...that guns are dangerous...they will equate and reason the cross-bow the same...

Mac

jh45gun · « **Reply #33 on:** September 12, 2005, 02:54:26 PM »

Thats probably true Mac but most of the arguements I have seen were by other bow hunters who should know better. :?

Laughing Crow · « **Reply #34 on:** September 15, 2005, 04:36:52 PM »

Seven states now allow anyone to use a crossbow during archery season.

mrlizzzard · « **Reply #35 on:** October 08, 2005, 09:42:13 AM »

For this old fat farm boy,gimme a cross bow and anyone else who wishes one.The deer are winning and that's that.

RangerRiz · « **Reply #36 on:** January 14, 2006, 12:35:19 PM »

I live in Ohio,where it is legal to hunt with a x-bow. There is an acuracy advantage to the x-bow on paper at responsible bow ranges and that is it.For any responsible hunter there is no noticable advantage in the field.As for the so called real bowhunters if it is not made of wood (both bow and arrows) with a stone tip, you are at an unfare advantage. Any letoff is an avantage. Besides ethical hunters take the most efective hunting tools posible with them in the woods.

slayer · « **Reply #37 on:** January 16, 2006, 01:34:10 PM »

I live in PA and crossbows are leagal for Disabled folkes in Archery season and all deer seasons. They are also legal for everyone in rifle and muzzleloader seasons and for all in certain areas in the state including near Pittsburgh and Philly. I shot a compound for years and practiced like crazy and never got better than OK. well, that wasn`t good enough for me ethically, so i tried a Crossbow for the first time and quickly fell in love with it and felt really confident and shot it well. I am pushing in PA to open it up to all to use in the Archery seasons also. I also agree, my limit is 30 yards. Heck, I even use a recurve crossbow, an Excalibur Exocet, great crossbow. Jack.

varmit_master · « **Reply #38 on:** January 28, 2006, 09:13:19 PM »

I live in Ark and Arkansas was one of the first state let anybody use a xbow in archery season. Our season runs from Oct 1st thru Feb 15. The Game and Fish said it would give every body a same amount of time in the woods. VM

smokepolehall · « **Reply #39 on:** March 19, 2006, 05:31:48 PM »

I think that a xbow, bow ML,or rifle is just a tool to use to harvest deer. To me its the freedom of choice of what i would like to hunt with on any given day! I let over 30 deer go by this year, i took 3 for the freezer. I use a Phoenix xbow and a Bear Whitetail Elite and ML's. I no longer use rifles to hunt deer with and i don't miss them at all. Its the hunt that should be enjoyed not the amount of game you can legally harvest. We stand together then PETA and those others can't stop all hunting!

dukkillr · « **Reply #40 on:** March 19, 2006, 06:04:05 PM »

Not everyone has the same self control as you. If people in some areas could hunt for 4 months with any weapon and liberal limits there would never be a trophy deer. It obviously depends on the hunting pressure an area is under and the deer population in that area.

jh45gun · « **Reply #41 on:** March 19, 2006, 07:04:04 PM »

WI has had liberal limits and seasons for years now if you lump in the archery and doe t zones and rifle seasons and muzzle loader seasons then back to archery again we hunt from Sept to Jan and some places are extended even into Feb in archery only areas that are Metro hunting areas so we have liberal seasons using archery, gun and muzzle loaders and WI has some huge trophy bucks killed every year. Duckkiller in places were there are big woods some places never even get hunted or if it does only by a few and those bucks know where to hide to get big. Besides that Bucks are in their prime when they get 3 to 4 years old a lot of them get to see that old. Some states have a more liberal seasons than we do and still trophy bucks are killed. While I know some trophy hunters most guys I know think most bucks are trophy's and shooting does are a important part of the harvest too. While I do not condemn anyone wanting to shoot only a trophy rack thats their business go for it, but there is more to deer hunting than that and in the same respect the horn hunters should not condemn some one wanting a spike or basket rack or a doe either.

dukkillr · « **Reply #42 on:** March 19, 2006, 07:46:20 PM »

Sounds like wisconsin doesn't apply to what I said then. I know places in missouri that get over hunted with only a 9 day rifle season. I'm not commenting on anyone's choice of deer to harvest, but having a restrictive season and limit (One buck only for a calendar year) has done wonders for Kansas's trophy numbers. That in turn, has brought more attention and outfitters. It's a good thing. It seems to me (and I do have a biology degree) that huge blocks of woods like Wisconsin and Michigan have are very hard to hunt out. There is simply too much cover and habitat. That cover can also make patterning and even spotting much harder as well. Those things bring sucess rates down and trophy rates up. That doesn't work everywhere. Ag land in both eastern and Southern missouri where I've hunted in the past gets absolutely pounded. All the locals know if there is a trophy deer in the area by September and then the chase is on. After someone gets him everyone else kills anything with horns, further hindering the future generation of trophy bucks. It's that kind of country that can't be free in their regulations.

jh45gun · « **Reply #43 on:** March 19, 2006, 08:07:06 PM »

Yea I agree with you and I did not mention that WI you can kill one buck only with your rifle tag and that includes wether it is in the rifle or muzzle loader seasons when you fill the tag it is filled but you can shoot a buck with your archery license too that is separate. What WI has given out in the last 10 to 12 years is liberal doe tags to take advantage of a large herd of deer and in some places there are more deer than others so it depends on where you hunt but for the most part the whole state has lots of deer

smokepolehall · « **Reply #44 on:** March 20, 2006, 12:54:43 AM »

Dukkillr i will agree that some folks would shoot anything and as much as they could. Now think about that, they still do! Those don't ever stop until the Game Warden catches them. We can take only 3 Bucks legally and only one a day and 2 per season. Honest people obey the law slobs and poachers never do. They will always kill anytime anywhere and all they can. I hunt with what is allowed during a season. Archery we can use xbow and or bow and thats what i do, trade off. I hunt with my bow all of the 1st archery season, i can use xbow but i don't. The 2nd.archery season i use xbow, we can use our xbow and bow during ML season. I am not real picky on my deer, i won't shoot a Doe with fawns or fawns. I will shoot a Doe without them. I will shoot scrub racked Bucks soon as they give me a decent shot. I took one Doe one scrub Buck and a nice racked 6 pt. I didn't get a clear shot on any bigger racked Bucks so i left my last Buck tag empty! :grin:

dukkillr · « **Reply #45 on:** March 20, 2006, 06:18:27 AM »

To me this has nothing to do with xbows... Rather it has to do with game management. I don't understand why anyone would shoot a young buck. At least I don't understand why anyone who's an experienced adult would. If it's about meat I take does, even during rifle season. I understand that not all bucks will grow up, but letting them grow gives them a chance. I simply don't understand why anyone would shoot a young buck.

But here's the deal I find with Missouri. The pieces of ground are smaller and the in state hunting population is bigger. If people don't believe that they can let deer grow up without their neighbor shoot them they have no incentive not to shoot them themselves. Even the farms I hunt on in Southern Missouri (200 acres) and Western Missouri (600 and 400 acres) aren't big enough to protect those deer for their whole life. It's really a community mindset that's needed in those areas. Now I hunt mostly in Kansas where the farm is 4000 acres, and I directly benefit from the management on the property, which I control. Trust me, it's worth the effort.

As for poachers, what can you do? They do what they do, it shouldn't impact the rules for the law abiding hunters.

jh45gun · « **Reply #46 on:** March 20, 2006, 06:59:00 AM »

Well dukillr you kinda addressed one issue where I and a lot of folks hunt in WI is on either forest crop land or state or country land all public so we do not own it. If I pass on a 6 pointer the next guy will not so why should not I benifit. That is just the way it is up here. Most guys if they do own land its 40 acres or smaller. yea some folks own more or have small farms 160 acres or less and that is the same issue you do not take it on your land the neighbor will on his. So in the scenareo around here if you see a nice small buck and you do not care about a wall hanger you harvest it if you do not some one else will if they get a crack at it. You talk about community mind set it will never happen up here too many guys and families traditionally have hunted the same for years to most of us a good rack is a bonus and yea bragging rights but a lot of guys will take any thing with legal horns and be proud of it. There I suppose are bigger farms down south in the state but that is the same issue farmers and their families or those they let hunt on their property shoot does and small bucks also. Despite all this WI is known for large trophy bucks along with MI and MN where guys all pretty much hunt the same. I can see your point of you having that much land it pays for you to manage it but for a lot of folks that is not possible since they hunt on public land and if you do not harvest it the next guy would. So with that mind set I will take a buck with a smaller rack if I see it and be perfectly happy with it.

dukkillr · « **Reply #47 on:** March 20, 2006, 09:14:55 AM »

Too bad in my opinion... i hope hunter's opinions shift over time, and it seems they will... To me shooting a small buck and doe are the same, except that a doe will never become a trophy...

The real point of all this is that you can't expect people to govern themselves for the good of the herd... That's what started this discussion, and I believe we both agree that it's true... Sometimes it's because those people will never see a direct benefit...

This is where quality deer management and point restrictions come in... that, of course, has nothing to do with xbows and is discussed in a different thread.

jh45gun · « **Reply #48 on:** March 20, 2006, 04:24:44 PM »

One other point to consider some folks kill big deer with pure plain luck it happens every year the 12 year olds first season or the guy who never hunted before it happens. Others who are good hunters seem to always get nice deer. Those are the two extremes with other hunters inbetween we already covered the guys who will shoot a small buck or doe for the venison and be happy. Well there is one other guy or gal out there that we have not talked about and that is the one who never seems to have much luck killing a deer. He or she goes out but never seeems to see a buck usually does or fawns why this happens who knows maybe he moves to much or makes too much noise I do not know maybe just plain unlucky as that can go in streaks it seems. Anyway some one like this that could shoot a fork or small basket rack may feel that that is the best trophy ever so are we to deny him or her that? Or maybe that would be a first buck for a boy or girl that first started out hunting should they wait for a big one. If they do they may get disgusted and never go again it happens.

dukkillr · « **Reply #49 on:** March 20, 2006, 05:24:42 PM »

my first buck was a dinky little 6 pt... I'm a reasonable person, I'm not condemning first timers or kids...

jh45gun · « **Reply #50 on:** March 20, 2006, 08:07:02 PM »

So what your saying is after we shoot that first buck then we should just hold out for huge racks? I have shot lots of deer in my 54 years on this earth but many of them have been does because I had the tags and I like Venison. My first buck was a nice ten point with a rifle second was a nice 6 point only six points but a decent rack. First buck was at the age of 14 I think the second one I did not shoot probably until I was 21, 22 somthing like that so say a 6 to eight year period with no bucks but some does. Then from what I can remember I shot a couple of spikes and several forks and a other six pointer. Lets say maybe 10 total and that is with a rifle. Then I shot a fork with a bow at 16 quite bow hunting for a while then shot a three point and a spike with my bow so that has been 3 bucks with a bow the rest again were does. So 13 bucks in say 41 Years of hunting as I know I missed one year. So roughly every 3.2 years I shot a buck and that was with two types of hunting. I would think that is not bad as I have read of others not doing that well I know one guy who has shot 3 or 4 bucks in his life and he is almost 50. I think most hunters may be like this yea I know guys that shoot bucks every year. I also know guys like my buddy that seldom shoots one but still goes out and tries. I know some that do not even bother and shoot does or what ever comes along first. Bottom line is if I went by what your saying I would have passed up 12 bucks so far and shot one my first one to be honest if that is the would be the case I probably would not hunt any more and I think a lot of guys would agree with that. Not all of us in fact I would think most of us are not into trophy only hunting. If you and others are fine but in the same respect if I or some one else takes a 6 pointer to us that may be just a big a thrill. I know some areas due to genetics or maybe not great feed the deer have just small racks if they waited for a big one they would still be waiting the deer there just have average and a lot of time goofy odd looking racks.

smokepolehall · « **Reply #51 on:** March 21, 2006, 04:30:43 PM »

dukkiller the 5 pt. scrub was 3 1/2 years old weight 130 lbs. the 6 pt. was 2 1/2 years old had a 15'"spread weight was 121 had 4" g1's and 9" g2's. I would have passed him but i was on a team big Buck and Doe team contest. What does this have to do with xbows and bows, everything. I use what i want thats legal , its all short range where i hunt. I don't worry about what or whatnot my neighbos shoot. There are good many deer in our area because we don't shoot the limit, who can eat 150 deer before next season gets here. I wish everyone could get along, you could sit 100 yds. from me and never bother my hunt or i yours. You with your bow and me with a xbow! :grin:

jh45gun · « **Reply #52 on:** March 21, 2006, 09:41:15 PM »

Forgot to add for a while back before WI had all the extra doe tags and bonus tags it was either or so if you shot a doe you filled your tag and could not shoot a buck. So for a lot of years I took the a doe which eliminated me from taking a buck. So that buck that I maybe could have shot either got bigger or some one else shot it. I did not mind this as I was happy taking a doe. I got over the Horn issue a long time ago and yea I will gladly shoot a large horned animal if I have a available tag and get a chance. I am also realistic and love Venison so if I get a chance to shoot a nice doe I do. The main reason I went into Bow hunting and now crossbow was for a longer nicer season and a more relaxed chance to harvest a deer for the freezer and muzzle loading was a extra chance to hunt longer to fill existing tags though I have to say both the bowcrossbow and the muzzle loader have rewarding hobbies in themselves.

Laughing Crow · « **Reply #53 on:** March 23, 2006, 04:36:21 PM »

MADMAN!

I find it so bizarre that hunters keep viciously turning on hunters. Today I emailed our states Deer Hunting organization in response to an email message I received asking me to go out an contact everyone I know about the evils of shooting preserves. How strange it is that 800 Minnesota Deer, Elk and Exotic Ranchers should face the threat of being put out of business by their own brothers! What on earth is happening to us?

Why must hunters fall victim to persecution from their own kind? What causes the cannibalism among the ranks of the modern hunter, when never before has their unity been so needed to survive? What causes the myopic vision that disables so many from seeing the real threat to our hunting heritage and its future? Honestly I swear that a very larger percentage of those who call themselves hunters are truly brain dead! When is the madness going to stop? When are the hunting and fishing masses going to gain the vision to see the big picture and realize that our hunting heritage is in terminal peril?

In spite of signs that are so vibrant that even a blind man could comprehend, we have bowhunters persecuting the crossbow and deer hunters condemning the deer farmer. All the while the ARFs circle the carnage with smiles of satisfaction at the destructive cannibalism that is destroying our ranks. It is not a proud time for this hunter who has spent his last 45 years of his life in pursuit of big game! It is a travesty that brings deep shame to a sport that has become my way of life.

If you or any of your friends are looking for a fight, there are any number of organizations that are dedicated to the demise of the modern hunter. Doesnt it make sense to focus our energies on those that would see us to extinction? Why persecute a brother and destroy his preference of harvesting wild game?

While I am having a hard time understanding what is happening within our ranks, I have dedicated my life to the unification of all hunters in a common effort against our real enemy, the ARFs. Please listen to my plea and join me and those who understand where the true danger lies. That jeopardy does not come from another who enjoys harvesting natural resources with a weapon or a rod and reel. It comes from those who strive to eliminate all forms of hunting and fishing and who will not rest until their mission is accomplished. For the mercy of the sports that mean so much to us all, wake up! The clock is ticking and we are allowing our hunting and fishing futures to be placed in peril. If you really care about the future of our sports, you will put away your selfish agendas and go to work with your brothers and your sisters to preserve the things that are so dear to us all.

It makes no difference what your choose to take your animal with! You are a hunter and the choice should be yours to make. What does matter is that there is a well financed and a well organized enemy that is bound and determined to see hunting and fishing banned forever. We all know that! And, if in the shadow of that knowledge, you still feel it more important to persecute your fellow hunter because of where he or she wants to hunt or because of what he or she wants to hunt with, then you are more of a threat than the ARF is. At least the ARF has the honesty to declare that they want to see hunting gone forever. Those that say, I want your hunting gone, but not mine! are no better than the evil that would see all hunting totally eradicated.

There are those of you who would call me a Madman! But, if you can not see the logic in what I say, I claim that you are the ones that are mad and you will be the death of us all!

dukkillr · « **Reply #54 on:** March 23, 2006, 05:32:08 PM »

the "lets not fight" folk always invoke that doctrine to defend something others find quesitonable. They never agree and still invoke the "let's not fight".

you find me a group that doesn't police itself and i'll show you a group that's lost the power to make it's own decisions. If we as hunters refuse to be reasonable someone else will make those decisions for us.

Not every killing of an animal is hunting. Not every killing of an animal is ethical. And not every objection to what some people call "hunting" is bad for hunters.

Laughing Crow · « **Reply #55 on:** March 24, 2006, 07:13:51 AM »

If anyone I know had worked long and hard to build a business and then a group of peers came in and tried to shut it down because they did not approve, there would be hell to pay. The industry is making changes to get rid of the bad seeds. There are some tremendously ethically operators and they do not deserve to have their businesses and years of hard work destroyed just because someone else does not approve. That is part of the problem with the ME, ME, ME hunter. If you dont approve of shooting preserves, the dont go there. Dont succumb to the philosophy of If you dont like it, kill it! The way things are going, there my come a day when if you dont belong to a shooting preserve, you may not hunt! Let your parameters be just that YOUR PARAMETERS! Leave your brother alone.

dukkillr · « **Reply #56 on:** March 24, 2006, 07:29:19 AM »

I wasn't objecting to preserves, I was objecting to the theme that we can't criticize anything anyone calls hunting. That mentality will cause others to step in and handle the situation themselves. Think baseball, steroids, and congress. As long as trophies shot behind a fence aren't entered into P&Y or B&C I couldn't care less who hunts there. For the same reason I couldn't care less if someone drives out into a pasture and shoots a cow.

IF they start doing something that brings a bad name and reputation to all hunters (like the drugging of the deer at that place Jimmy Houston got caught hunting at) then we as hunters need to step up and say that's not right. If we don't self police, states will close all game farms.

Laughing Crow · « **Reply #57 on:** March 24, 2006, 10:25:01 AM »

I concur! The obligation to police game preserves should come from the families that own them. If they dont act (in conjunction with local agriculture agencies) then they are putting all at risk. As far as what is happening in Minnesota; it is being represented as being done on behalf of the membership of the MDHA, when it reality (and by admission of the CEO) it is being done on behalf of the personal feelings of the board of directors. The membership has not even been consulted.

The bottom line is that if the right to raise deer and elk and offer them to shoot is preserves, there will have to be guidelines established to remove and keep out those that are giving the legitimate rancher a bad name.

Drugged animals Absolutely no excuse, however it does drive home a good point. If it is so easy to kill an animal within a penned enclosure, why is it necessary to drug them?

jh45gun · « **Reply #58 on:** March 24, 2006, 11:06:47 AM »

Quote from: Laughing Crow

Drugged animals Absolutely no excuse, however it does drive home a good point. If it is so easy to kill an animal within a penned enclosure, why is it necessary to drug them?

Good point I never hunted one of these places never will I could not afford it if I wanted to, but these are supposidly wild animals so I would guess that finding one to hunt in a big area would not be a piece of cake exactly though your success rate I am sure would be better than in the wild.

Laughing Crow · « **Reply #59 on:** March 24, 2006, 05:12:44 PM »

At the last Bowhunting Preservation Alliance Summit meeting I attended, there were a number of state wildlife agency representatives there and we were discussing this very subject. They told me of a study were x number of deer were placed in forty acres of fenced woods that was thick and wild. They then allowed x number of hunters to enter the enclosure in an attempt to take the deer. The deer came out on the victorious side of the equation. Not one was taken.

I videoed two hunts on a licensed preserve in Northern Wisconsin that is over 600 acres of heavy woods and tamarack swamp. After three years, the owner was very discouraged because of the low harvest rates of big bucks, even though he knew they were there from the photos collected on his game cameras. I explained to him that big bucks did not get to be big bucks by being stupid. They knew where his towers were and when the hunters were there. They were visiting the danger zones only at deep dusk or after dark. Only an insurgent bomber WANTS TO DIE! Big bucks want to live for the rut.

Thats why I have no sympathy for those that have to drug a big buck in order to bring it to the ground. In a square mile of dense cover, one still has to out think the wily whitetail buck. If the hunter is incapable of doing that, drugs remain the only solution. That is what I deem to be criminal. However, that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.