Author Topic: Got a little problem.. (Read 1438 times)

1860 · « **on:** April 12, 2005, 11:51:03 PM »

Howdy,

I'm looking for ideas and suggestions.

My favorite Revolver, an 1860 Richards Conv. (ASM) is just starting to leave a slight line on the cylinder. I'ts where the bolt comes out of the cylinder when you start to cock it and quickly trails off-(very slight at the moment). I can't stand looking at these drag marks so before it gets worse I want to fix it, trouble is ASM parts are hard to find. Either the Hammer cam and/or the bolt is worn. Since I can't bend or add metal to the bolt, what if I gave the cam a "whack"with something heavy, to kind of squish the metal a tad and make it taller-(hard to explain). I just need to get the bolt out of the cylinder a tad earlier than it does, the rest of the action is perfect and tight as a drum. I've shot this gun alot, a whole lot..

Thanks, Ideas???

1860

montanadan · « **Reply #1 on:** April 13, 2005, 03:09:53 AM »

1860-ASM's are hard to find parts for,do not pound on the bolt! I rather doubt that the cam on the trigger is worn,(but anything is possible)take a look at the hand ,see how badly it is worn. While you have the revolver a part,take alook at the trigger/bolt spring, and the bolt ,sometimes you can increase the tension on the bolt, buy bending the bolt side of the spring(a little goes a long ways). Also you can try spreading the rear of the bolt arms(gently). If you need to replace some parts ,try V.T.I. gun parts(LISA) because I heard that they bought up some ASM parts(not sure about this). You could also contact ROWDY YATES at brimestone pistoleros' web-site,he can probably walk you through the repairs,and assist with parts. I hope this helps...Respectfully Montanadan.

1860 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 13, 2005, 11:19:34 AM »

Thanks Dan,

Do you have a link or email for this rowdy Yates. VTI has no ASM parts. If I had a new bolt as a backup, I'm sure I could fix it, I just don't want to mess with the only one I have-(just in case!!).. Another hammer would also be nice.

60

ribbonstone · « **Reply #3 on:** April 13, 2005, 11:58:45 AM »

Think you have the right parts in ind...the hand rotates the cylinder, has little to do with teh timing of the bolt fall. So long as the cylinder is being rotated the right amount, leave the hand alone.

Are right...can't easily add metal to the bolt's "hook", which would make the bolt pop down earlier...making it pop up later would be better served by the hook being longer...which leaves you the hammer's inclined wedge-stud. Wacking on it isn't usually real productive...it flares out the top rather than the base, and the base is what contacts the hand...leaves a "lip" that fouls things up.

Dixie sold a lot of this maker...may be worth talking to them about replacement parts, or the possibility of making Uberti/Pietta bolts fit.

1860 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 13, 2005, 12:52:11 PM »

Ribbonstone,

I never thought about Dixie, thanks. I have a bunch of pietta parts and their bolts are too short, darn it..

Your post describes exactly what's going on with this gun. There is one other thing to try, take a little metal off the top of the bolt where it seats in the cylinder. That would have the same effect as adding metal to the cam following part of the bolt. But-(always a but), this gun locks up tight as is and has no over-rotation trouble that is so common with these types, even when fast cocking it two handed. I fear that I may change that and as we all know, there is no going back when you take metal off.
If I pound on the hammer cam I'll end up with an edge that will mess up the bolt reseting when you let the hammer down.

What do you think about taking some off the top of the bolt?

thanks
1860

ribbonstone · « **Reply #5 on:** April 13, 2005, 03:02:16 PM »

Shouldn't be a problem...so long as when it is up it fully engages the bolt notch. Fi you go too far and get less than full engagment...the bolt runs at an angle (it pivots to the rear) so taking a bit off the ledge that stops it against the frame will make it pop up higher.

Would be good to polish that bolt well...smooth steel has less of a tendency to leave nasty drag marks.

Had a couple of problems when converting an 1949 to .32SW. The conversion sylinders are 6-shot...the original was 5-shot with deep bolt notches. The cartridge cylinder has shallow notches (has to by it's design)...so my bolt was poping out of lock wehn the gun was fired (or even dry-fired).

Had to reshape the bolt a bit...and make a stronger spring to hold the bolt in lock.
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Now you do understand that ypu ARE going to get those drag marks no matter what you do. IT's a cartridge gun...so you put it on 1/2 cock to load it and the bolt is drawn in to let if roatate...right?

So when you are finished loading it, unless you take the time to be sure that the cylinder is rotated just right, the bolt is going to fall randomly about the cylinder the first time you cock it. So...even perfectly timed, will only be delaying that drag mark by a factor of 6.

With percussions, the same effect even with a perfectly timed gun, each time you remove and replace the cylinder....so it's going to happen. With a percssion in perfect time, we'll probalby take that cylinder out to clean it every 30-40 shots...so are delaying the ring formation by 40shots X the 1/6 cylinder it drags on wehn first cocked...so call it a factor of 240.

Will52100 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 13, 2005, 06:42:35 PM »

If not carefull you will get cylinder/bolt drag marks, but if you rotate the cylinder at half cock back against the hand and then cock the hammer all the way you won't get them. I usualy don't wory to much about it, I figure I'll wear the gun out long before the drag mark realy shows up, and like you said a polished bolt goes a long way to help minimize the drag marks.

1860 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 14, 2005, 02:03:24 PM »

Interesting points about loading and setting the cylinder back to the hand...

The drag mark I'm starting to see it heavier just after the knotch in the cylinder and quickly trails off. To check if it was timing/indexing, I smoked the cylinder with a candle-(blackened it). I worked the action, slow and fast, using a 10X ring, I could only make out a little rub mark after a couple of the notches and it was just on the soot from the candle.

What I couldn't check was how it worked when all fouled up with BP, and that may just be the issue. These ASM conversions foul the cylinder pin very quickly, by some very carefull work I've managed to get it to go 30 shots with no real stiffness in the cylinder, after that it starts to get stiff and it's not usable at 40shots. So, until recently, most of my shooting has been smokeless and no lines, now that I'm shooting all BP loads, it's starting.

I'm pretty sure that the fouling build up between the pin and the cylinder is changing the way it spins-(geometry) just enough for that bolt to drag a little as it comes out of the cylinder. Real hard to explain but once I get it real dirty I'm gonna repeat my experiment with the candle. It all kind of fits, the gun has been well maintained, shot a bunch with no trouble, until I started using all BP. BTW: I didn't shoot alot of BP befor because when I started it wouldn't go 5 shots without stiffening up..

Did any of that make sense? :-)

Thanks
1860

ribbonstone · « **Reply #8 on:** April 14, 2005, 04:33:56 PM »

Does make a kind of sense...but there would have to be some "wobble" on that cylinder pin for it to have that kind of effect...always some slack in the system (or it wouldn't spin) so it may be a contributing factor.

That's the main shortcoming of percussion type (including conversions) revovlers. By the time of cartridge guns, they'd figured out the gas ring for the cylinder...that short extention of the cylkinder taht contacts the frame. By off-setting the flash gap and the cylinder pin.cylinder joint, the flash of BP smoke/fouling doesn't get driven into the cylinder pin....on persussion guns (and their converted brothers) the barrel cylinder gap is even with the cylinder/cylinder pin join...so the flash is directed right where it can do the most harm.

Have been tempted to latch the cylinder of a Remington so taht it has that gas ring type extention...then set the barrel back to off set the cylinder gap and the (lathed formed) gas ring's fit to the frame.

1860 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 20, 2005, 02:30:07 PM »

Thanks for the chat, it's always better to bounce these things around when you are not sure of what you are doing.

The black powder idea is probably the culprit, but not for the reason I thought. The cylinder on this gun starts to get stiff with BP use and I think my handling of the gun after loading is the main problem-not setting it back on the hand...My wife is a coin collector and she has this microscope type of thing that she uses to grade coins and check for defects-(it's really sharp). I used it on the cylinder, bolt and hammer, the marks on the cylinder had spots where the bolt was dropping on it, probably me.

So, I just polished the bolt, under that scope it looked really rough but you couldn't tell with a magnifing blass. I did a bunch of shooting with it this weekend and was more careful with my handling...it's fine.

Ribbonstone,

I have another cylinder comming for this gun and I'm planning on counterboring the cylinderpin hole and making a collar to fit. Kind of like what the 1872 Opentop from Cimaron already has. That 72 will shoot BP all day long without getting the least bit stiff.

60