Author Topic: A free 1X fired case with every handgun? (Read 1337 times)

Golsovia · « **on:** April 13, 2005, 06:20:48 AM »

What 's up with this? I have bought three new revolvers in the past year or so. The two most recent, different makes, have both included an empty fired case in the box along with the gun. In the case of the most recent revolver, a Ruger, the evidence on the cylinder suggested that it had only been fired a single time or, at least, only in the one chamber. What's up with that?

southern utah · « **Reply #1 on:** April 13, 2005, 06:30:35 AM »

It is a program in a few states that require a spent cartridge when you register your pistol. Their new and inproved method of tracking a firearme used in a crime. The cartridge is kept by agency doing registration. Only a few liberal states back such nonsence. If a firearm company wants to sell in these states they must include a empty case so it is easier to add one in every box at an added cost to consumer.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 13, 2005, 07:18:42 AM »

southern utah is 100% correct.

Golsovia · « **Reply #3 on:** April 13, 2005, 08:45:23 AM »

Thanks. That's kind of what I thought after seeing the second one in virtually the same type packing- a small brown sealed envelope with specific data written on it. The first time I saw it I thought it was just a small anal detail that some would find useful some way. The registration thing makes perfect sense. I'm glad I live in a state where we get to keep the extra case. Even the local cop that was tried for murder in an unrelated-to-work death by gun shot was not convicted based on spent case evidence or barrel markings. It's too circumstantial.

That doesn't mean, however, that we lack fools who make decisions based on inadequate, insufficient, or incomplete evidence.

Flash · « **Reply #4 on:** April 13, 2005, 11:43:13 AM »

This is a Maryland law also and it drove many gun shops out of business because the manufactures wouldn't ship the fired case. The small gun shops couldn't get handguns shipped and as a result, they went belly up. It is only recently that most firearm companies have got on board with this policy. Forensic science has advanced to the point that PROVES the fired case will consistantly be the same from an individual gun. This can stop a killing spree, get a crack dealer off the street or determine who's bullet hit little Johnny in the playground. Regardless of who thinks this law is senseless, it is a good one since it will help solve crimes. Forensics speak for themselves and it was the narrow minded firearm executives that dropped the ball on this one.

BCB · « **Reply #5 on:** April 13, 2005, 12:05:31 PM »

Flash,
Just curious...Will that fired case only be good for the actual chamber it was fired from in the cylinder? Thanks...BCB

Randy_che · « **Reply #6 on:** April 13, 2005, 12:22:33 PM »

"Forensic science has advanced to the point that PROVES the fired case will consistantly be the same from an individual gun."

No real disrespect intended, but perhaps you've been watching too much CSI.

1. Each cylinder in a revolver will have different tooling marks, which change over time (due to repeated loading, firing, and cleaning)
2. Cartridges are handled differently before inserting into cylinders. Some may be new and smooth, others may have rolled around in the glove box of a truck for 10 years.
3. Consider the number of revolvers owned in America, then compare to that the number actually used in a crime.
4. Only a few (newer) guns have had this fired case requirement.
5. Only a few locations actually collect these once-fired cases. Since there is only one case, how are other areas going to get the case information to do something with it? If there is a crime, is someone going to call another district and request all the once-fired cases that they have?
6. A revolver-shooting criminal would have to be below moronic to shoot someone and then intentionally dump their cases on the ground to be found. Maybe the gun could be found with the cases still in it, but even if that is true, you have 1-5 to deal with.

This pseudo scientific stuff just doesn't stand up when thought about for a couple of minutes. I would be VERY surprised if a single criminal case is ever really solved based on a once-fired case. If that's the best evidence that someone has on me, even a rookie lawyer better be able to get me off.

greenjeans · « **Reply #7 on:** April 13, 2005, 01:01:08 PM »

Yeah, it's amazing how the CSI gals can dig a bullet out of a body or wall and tell what kind of gun it was fired from immediately. Just need to hire them for all the real crimes.

I do watch almost all of them, thought.

mr.frosty · « **Reply #8 on:** April 13, 2005, 03:15:31 PM »

I got one with my SRH 480 may make a key chain out of it

Camel 23 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 13, 2005, 03:59:49 PM »

I read a report from Maryland a couple months back so the details might not be exact, but they said that they were actually able to link a crime to the gun in TWO cases. In both cases they had already caught the suspect, had the gun and a confession by the time they got confirmation on the case. After sinking millions of tax payer dollars into this experiment they were planning to scrap the whole thing.

unspellable · « **Reply #10 on:** April 14, 2005, 02:24:54 AM »

That last post is the real joker. It's almost inevitable that the case will be matched with the fiream after the crime has already been solved.

On the other hand, they file away a fired bullet in Germany. Some years back there was a famous case involving a political assassination. The cops spent all their time going through the files looking for a match while the assasin skipped the country. Of course they never found a match as the assassin was a pro who got his firearm outside the country.

Castaway · « **Reply #11 on:** April 14, 2005, 02:40:56 AM »

Camel23 is on the money with his comments. Even the Maryland State Police came stepped up and said it was useless and not worth the cost of continuing the program

1911crazy · « **Reply #12 on:** April 14, 2005, 01:41:36 PM »

Its called "Ballistic Finger Printing" I think its mainly for all firearms even rifles too. They say each fired case is unique to that gun just like our finger prints are to us. BigBill

Now with CSI on TV the other night they cracked me up when they dug a .355" diameter(example) bullet out of the floor without knowing what it was I think one said 9mm? then the other said its 1/2" hole it made in the floor its a 380!! :eek: I want to hire that person who can tell me right off wether its a 380 or 9mm by looking at the hole in the floor. I think they pass on some BS wether to make us think the real CSI's are that good or that quick thats a joke. But the non gun people think its so real while my wife loves watching CSI i will point out the real world facts just to give her the truth. Not all the stuff is false its just the little things they want you to believe that cracks me up. I'm far from an expert but the 1/2" hole it made in the floor just got to me. :-D :-D :-D :-D

Its like matching the rifling to exactly one gun when there has been many barrels broached with one tool it could be any number (100's++)of that one brand of gun barrel until they find it and narrow it down to "1" until then its a guess who has it or who used it. My point is its just not that simple. Ballistic finger printing just may link up another part to the puzzle as solid evidence besides the bullet.

Flash · « **Reply #13 on:** April 14, 2005, 03:05:56 PM »

There was a case in Pennsylvania that was solved by ballistic finger printing. The fired case revealed an impression made by the firing pin which was repeated with every case fired in that gun. The cases linked the gun and the owner to the crime scene. The fired case is photographed and filed in a data base which is searchable for comparison like a finger print.
The relvolver might have different cylinder chambers but only one firing pin. That hits the primer the same every time and with the same marks left behind. It's pretty narrow minded or moronic to think that a case can't be linked to the gun it was fired from and the associated data can't be shared via computers instantly. Maryland will not register a new handgun purchase without a fired case so that requirement is mandatory for all new handguns sold in that state. So much for only a few (newer) guns.

1911crazy · « **Reply #14 on:** April 14, 2005, 03:18:20 PM »

My new CZ85B in 9mm came with a fired case with it. BigBill

Camel 23 · « **Reply #15 on:** April 14, 2005, 04:44:37 PM »

I guess the bad guys are just gonna need to use older guns now.

CJ · « **Reply #16 on:** April 14, 2005, 05:32:07 PM »

Seems pretty silly to argue about revolver cases solving crimes unless the bad guys stop and take the time to dump the empties at the crime site.

Flash · « **Reply #17 on:** April 15, 2005, 12:56:03 AM »

Yes I agree with you CJ, the government just stipulates "Handgun" purchases and that encompasses all, including revolvers.

pinduck · « **Reply #18 on:** April 15, 2005, 02:11:15 AM »

It would seem to me that by simply going to a public range and picking up brass that is always lying around, then reloading it, there would be a multitude of different markings that would be difficult to trace to any specific weapon. It might have the markings of the gun that fired it last but there would be other marks there also. It would also be easy to change the firing pin every week or so to have a different mark on the primer. Sounds like more Governmental BS to me. :-D

Castaway · « **Reply #19 on:** April 15, 2005, 03:12:05 AM »

See the latest American Rifleman on an article about the futility of ballistic finger printing in Maryland. Got mine yesterday afternoon after my previous post. It gives facts and figures to support the State Police's recognition of the absurbitity of the program.

ed1921 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2005, 10:29:07 AM »

In the local papers a few weeks ago in Maryland. The state police after about $2,000,000 spent so far have not solved one crime.
They would like to use the money more constructively.
Of course it's up to the legislature. And that's not likely for the many liberals from Baltimore City, Montgomery County & a few other adjacent counties.
2 million is nothing to them, they just reach in your pocket & take it.
BTW- We just passed a Wal-Mart tax. No doubt to be modified in the future to include any company that brings jobs to Maryland.

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 22, 2005, 06:37:55 PM »

Heard that they just pick up the empty cases at the POLICE qualifying range. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

I still think there are too many variables:
case type
brass thickness
brass length
headspace
load
wear & tear
primer

If the badguy happens to fire the exact same round used in the test you'll get a good match. Anything else may be questionable.

Mikey · « **Reply #22 on:** April 23, 2005, 02:24:51 AM »

Folks, ballistic fingerprinting is a law in both Maryland and New York. Maryland has spent $2 million and NYS $4 million on those programs and in neither state has ballistic fingerprinting solved any crimes or prevented them. The Maryland law will be coming off the books as funding will be terminated for that state's programs. We have been urging the same for NYS but the Governor is either a bit slow to move or a bit hesitant to drop this New York City approach to gun control. He also listens a bit too much to the politically appointed police chiefs and the harem-scarem media but I expect this law is just about finished in NY too. IMHO. Mikey.

unspellable · « **Reply #23 on:** April 23, 2005, 08:24:33 AM »

While it occasionally happens that a case or bullet can be linked to specific fire arm, it uually happens after the has already been solved.

But let's face reality. The real purpose of keeping case or bullet samples is like most so called gun control laws, it just adds another level of harrasement and expense to the legitimate person's obtaining a gun and nothing more.

Kalifornia's drop test is a prime example. The requirements effectively ban many many quality firarms that would be capable of actually passing the test.

For years, S&W has manufactured a K framed 22 Magnum revolver. It has passed the test. They chamber it for the new 17 HMR and they have to go through the same rather expensive test all over again even though it's the same revolver. Dan Wesson removes the self cocking strut and sells their revolver in Kalifornia as a single action. (They keep the strut on file in case the buyer manages to escape kalifornia.) the reason they do this is because they feel they cannot afford the cost of the testing. (Yes, it's that expensive.) But as a single action it is exempt from the requirements. Go figure.

Gun control is not about guns.

jar-wv · « **Reply #24 on:** April 25, 2005, 01:14:55 PM »

I think the thing they look the most is the bolt face impression. Wonder what would happen if it got reloaded a time or two before it got sent back in?