pit's as hunting dog

[Ray Ford]

Ranger,

Back when cock fighting was legal in Oklahoma, the people who raised and kept chickens for that purpose would sometimes get a Pit puppy and raise it in the pen with the chickens.  The puppy would learn to not harm the chickens and, sometimes, to assist in catching individual birds.  One fellow--he lived near Ada in south-central Oklahoma--had such a Pit midst his chickens.  He laughed about it, saying, "Everyone's afraid to go in there with that dog, but if a thief did, the dog would probably help him steal the chickens."  Your post reminded me of that.

While the dog would not harm the chickens or people, any other living thing that got in that poultry pen at night--dog, cat, 'coon, 'possum or other critter--was dead on the ground the next morning.  That was the purpose of a Pit in the poultry pen.

Pits vary a lot in their temperment and inclination to fight.  I have seen Pits that would fight other Pits but not dogs of other breeds. That, in fact, is relatively common.  I have seen Pits that would fight other Pits but, when the fighting was done, be a perfect pet--even a lap dog.  Don't be lulled into complacency!  I would be interested in knowing how old your dog is: has he "come around" yet?  (See my post above.)  And I would be interested in knowing how he reacts when another Pit, or even a Boston Terrier, Bull Terrier, or English Bull, approaches him.

Incidentally, I'm probably the only preacher around--I'm now retired--who has had a world champion chicken fighter, a leading male model, and a Playboy cover girl in his congregation at the same time.  It happened at the Unithed Methodist Church in a small town in Oklahoma in the 1970's.  I learned a lot about the care and feeding, and breeding, of fighting chickens from the chicken fighter.  The model--he had been the leading male model in the United States at one time--was quite a guy.  Every woman in church had seen him in briefs--in the Sears catelog.  The cover girl, his wife, was one of the nicest young women that my wife and I ever met.

But I digress.

[Qaz]

 Mr. Ford, Had someone ask me what you did for a living before reading you last reply, I would have guessed preacher.
 Sir, you are condeming a breed as a whole for a very small sample size of examples. As Don Fisher stated, few dogs are bad, it is usually the owner that is the problem. All of your statement are based on your opiion and then stated as facts, non of which hold water.
   I will only comment on your miss information of pits as catch dogs for hog hunting.
 
1st- they are usually lead to the catch so the hunter can control the action. The longer the bulldog is on the boar the more chance they have of being cut up or killed. They may not even want the boar that is being bayed, depending on what the hunt is for.
 
2nd- No hog hunter that I know would use a dog aggressive catch dog and if one was used and he hurt a hound, you would not leave with the dog alive. Hounds are usually expensive, you can get a pit from the pound that makes a top notch catch dog. My point is that catch dogs, by virtue of their job are usually not long lived, therefore not many people spend alot of money buying them, compared to a hound!

 Since you like examples so much, here is one. I once saw two catahulas get in a fight over top of a pit and he never moved. Did he "come around"? NO, but I believe he could have whipped both dogs at the same time had he been inclined to do so. His job was to catch, and that was his only focus. What does he do when not hunting, lies around the yard with two young children unsupervised.

Qaz

[Ray Ford]

Qaz,

I have not, in any of my above posts, condemned the Pit Bull Terrier as a breed.
I have Pits.
I have had Pits in the past.
I have raised Pits in the past.
And I have sold Pits.
I love the breed.
But I also respect and, to a measure, understand the breed.
I don't have my head in the sand about the dogs.
And I stand behind my statement that no one who is not at least a semi-professional dog handler should own one.
I, in fact, stand behind everything that I have said in the above posts.
Those things flow out of experience, not just opinion.
I especially stand behind my statement that anyone who leaves a small child unattended with a Pit is a fool.
I stand behind my statement that anyone who leaves a small child alone with any large dog is a fool.
I say that even though I have known individual Pits who were family pets and never made an aggressive move at anyone.
 
 
I disagree with you that Pits are necessarily cheap dogs. 
You can get dogs of any breed cheap, or even free, on occasion--even hounds.

You may be correct about people keeping Pit catch dogs leashed for other reasons than to avoid unwanted matches with the loose hunters, but avoiding such matches is one reason that they are leashed.

Incidentally, Ole Norm died a couple of weeks ago.  Ole Norm was a battle-scared Pit that shared the home with my former daughter-in-law, her husband, their daughter and son, and my grandson.  (My son is dead.)  Norm could usually be found curled up in  a living room chair with the kids somewhere about.  Although he had been fought as a young pooch, he was non-aggressive toward everything--but that doesn't mean what I have said should be disallowed. The exception rarely disproves the rule!  Norm died of old age, and the family is devestated.  Old age is a good way for a Pit to die--I think you will agree.

[hicntry]

Don Fischer, you from Fresno? Saw your question to Mikey. I am from North Fork myself.

[Dee]

The thing I like about pits is the neighbors don't get mad when I shoot one on my property. They are usually relieved. The police don't mind either. Hope I didn't make anyone mad, but I'm sure I did. Curdog doesn't use'm for catch dogs and probably catches as many hogs as anybody. In 20 years of Law Enforcement (retired) I saw lots of pit pets that proved they could not be trusted around other familys or their pets. They were great (most of the time) around their own family.  They all breeds in serious dog calls where police were called. The Chow was second. For you guys that want to beat me up now, I'm sure you Pit is different. That's what they all said. Dogs by breed, are what they are. They can't help it.

[hicntry]

Dee, with certain breeds it only takes once. In Ca they are passing local laws right and left but what most people are unaware of is that there is a state law that prohibits passing breed specific legislation. Guess they would have to take the local jurisdictions to court to enforce it as nothing has been done by the state yet to stop it. 

[Dee]

If anything can go haywire, it will go haywire in Ca. I looked at my last post and noticed I left a key word out of a sentence in the Police related dog calls. I meant say(to my own peril) that Pits led above all other breeds in serious dog calls and ChowChow was second. I for one am rabid when I say we need less goverment, however in these type of topics I think the key is not goverment regulation but, common sense. Every animal on this planet has good and bad traits, us too. But, if you want to go hunting in the mountains, you usually don't saddle up your favorite race horse, he would get you both killed. A mule or calmer breed of horse would work much better. Then again at a horse race, don't bet on the donkey.
We as a people think that our children, family members and pets are special and they are to us. When a child throws a fit in Wal-Mart the parents (most of the time now-a -days) let him and try to bribe him. He is just having a bad day. Grandparents many times think the same thing. Everyone else in the store thinks the kid's a brat.
Same way with pets. I'm not pickin on Pits. They are what they are, and can't help it. However, when one wanders into my yard, I am not gambling on their owners word or the dog's unknown dispostion changes. I saw lot's of Pits from lots of different types of families get up one morning and cause serious problems. The funny thing was, most of the time the owners continued to defend them, and blamed it on the victim.  Amazing.

[Chris]

Interesting.

One of the guys that works for me came in limping last week.  I asked him what happend and he told me the male pit he had raised for the last three years turned on him.  All he was doing was throwing a ball for the dog to retrieve and at some point I guess the dog had enough and turned on him.  The dog clamped down hard on his thigh and then on his wrist before he was able to get away...a .357 put the dog in its place.  It really shook this this guy up.  BTW, he also has a female pit he's raised for 12+ years..."gentle as a puppy."  Now he's wondering what to do with this dog when his grandkids show-up...shouldn't take him long to figure that out.

...Chris      

[Ray Ford]

Dee,

Your posts didn't really make me mad, but....

I do get angry at times at the way people do with dogs.  One thing that angers me is people who will ignore what a dog was bred to do and where he was bred.  The best illustration of this is this:  It doesn't happen much anymore because very few people--except the fighters--keep chickens.  But it once happened a lot.  A person would acquire a birddog pup, carry it home, and drop it in the yard with the chickens. (On many farms, chickens were allowed to roam free during the daytime and protectively shut up in the chicken house at night.  That way, the birds made much of their own living and eradicated a lot of grasshoppers and other undesirable bugs.) The birddog pup would chase or kill the chickens, and the person who was stupid enough to give him access to the chickens whould kill the pup!  The pup died by the hand of a man for doing what man had genetically conditioned him to do!

I once sold a pup--he may have been the best Pit pup that I ever owned--to a man who took him home and turned him loose with other dogs. (This is equivalent to putting the birddog pup in with the chickens.) The young Pit locked on to one of the dogs.  Any knowledgeable Pit person could have broke the dog off the other in seconds and done it humanely.  The guy beat the dog to death with a chain trying to get him loose.  He turned loose when he died.  I still have daytime nighmares about selling that dog to him.  And that is one reason that I argue that no one who is not at least a semi-professional dog handler should own a Pit.

You mentioned Chows.  Chows were bred in northern China with hair coats and constitutions that allowed them to sleep in a snow bank.  When they are brought to to California, or Oklahoma and Texas, they suffer from the heat--suffer bad!  I am convinced, that, while Chows ARE bred to be aggressive, the heat making them irritable explains many of the incidents with Chows.  People who bring the northern, heavy-coated dogs to hot climates are stupid, and there should be a law against doing it.  It is nothing short of animal creulity.  And I hope that no one gives me that nonsense about that hair "insulating the dog from the heat."  If a person has a northern dog in a hot climate, they should shear it through the summer.

When it comes to Pits, the wave of people-aggressive dogs that has occurred in the last few years is the result of bad breeding and inappropriate training.  I will put down such dogs--and I have.  But if a Pit kills/injures a neighbor's dog, goats, or other animals, what should be shot is the owner who allowed the Pit to be loose.  In fact, in today's world, no dog should be allowed to roam free except in certain controlled circumstances.  It ain't healthy for the pooch.

Let me give one other example:  A person will acquire a German Shepherd and allow it to run loose around cattle or other livestock.  Like a friend of mine did, they will then decide to get another and have a pair.  German Shepherds are, at base, domesticated Timber Wolves, and a pair is not just a dog: they are a pack.  My friend came home from work one day to find one of his calves cut to pieces, and nearly dead, by his pack of German Shepherds.  Whose fault was it?  My friend's!  The dogs were just doing what comes natural.

Another thing that gets to me is a person who will use any excuse to shoot a dog just because he wants to kill something.  Another thing that gets to me is a person--in my own years in law enforcement and security, I have seen such--who goes into law enforcement just because he wants to carry a gun. (The Oklahoma Highway Patrol sends all of its recruits through a psychological screening before finalizing their employment as troopers, and this is one of the things they screen for.  I knew a man who, after qualifying in every other respect, was turned down on his psychological screening. He managed to get a job on a small police department.  I dispatched for that department for a while.  The man was obsessed with guns: he would manufacture a stop and a charge to confiscate a gun.) I worry about the people, not just the dogs, around such persons. 

[Ray Ford]

Chris,
I would be very interested in knowing two things about your co-worker's incident with his Pit:  (1) How was the dog bred and trained? (2) Just EXACTLY what led up to the attack?  Was another dog involved in the ball-throwing game?  As I have elsewhere indicated, if I had been there and witnessed an unprovoked attack, I would have helped put the dog down.  But I would have liked to have witnessed EXACTLY what happened.

[Dee]

Well, Ray I wouldn't disagree with you on any of that.  I don't know what screening police officers has to do with the issue though. I worked occasionally with OBI in Oklahoma mosty dealing with narcotics cases along the border and found them to be very competent. I retired 12 years ago, so if you mean that some people are looking for a reason to kill a dog do you mean people like me? Well, no I'm not, but, I'm not looking to get my dogs killed either. It is the owner's responsibility to keep them up but, they don't. And unfortunately your suggestion of shooting the owner is illegal and he is almost never there at the time of the incident anyway. People who buy these kind of dogs (pits) and turn them loose are the problem. However, a lot of people have grown tired of their behavior. By the way, on the Chow, many breeder's suggest that if you own one of these dogs (Chow) and you decide you don't want it, to have it put to sleep. They do not adjust to new owners very well many times. It's my responsibility to protect my grandkids (I have from these kind of people and their kind of pets. And I will, and do. Some people don't like mine, and others, attitude concerning the matter, but, I have never shot one in the owner's yard, just mine.

[Ray Ford]

Dee,

I strongly suspect that you and I would agree, or could reach agreement, on most things if we sat down and talked.  No, I wasn't specifically talking about anyone--just generalizing.  The thing that made me react was your blanket statement that you shot every Pit that came on your place.  Let's look at a hypothetical:  I have a none-aggressive Pit male that I only let loose under special circumstances.  One of those is in the woods.  Suppose someone else let him out of his pen--I have had that happen--and he wondered onto your place and was bothering nothing.  Would you shoot him, or get my number off his collar and call me? 

I had a young stallion once.  He was contained in a "stud pen" that met Oklahoma legal standards: it was made of 6-foot steel panels.  A neighbor who decided that horses shouldn't be kept in confined places, took it on herself to turn him out.  Out of his pen, he could approach other horses over a barbed wire fence.  Nothing happened before I discovered the situation, but it could have!  Horses, people, and my pocket book could have been injured.  People do things like that.

Yes, it is illegal, even in Oklahoma, to shoot people--although we have both a concealed carry and a "make my day" law.  My statement about what/who needed to be shot was just to make my point, not an expression of serious intent.  It is apparently also illegal in Oklahoma to shoot a dog.  A case hit the papers sometime back wherein a young man had a Pit that neighbors, although the dog was doing nothing, were complaining about.  He shot the dog and disposed of it in a dumpster.  He was charged with felony animal creulity and drew some time!

I respect all dogs, but I am not really afraid of any.  There are several other breeds of dog that I am more threatened by than the Pit.  I have been bitten twice by Australian Shepherds.  The dog that was the most dangerous to me as an owner was a Doberman.
I could tell some stories about that.  The worst dog bite that I have received was from a Rat Terrier: I reached into a dog house to get her, and she almost chewed my hand off--but I hung on an extracted her from the house.  And I have been bitten once by a Pit and once by a mixed Pit.  Both involve a story to be told.

As for screening police offers, my mind makes connections sometimes that other people don't always see.

We've wondered from the subject of hunting Pits.  But good talking to you.

[Dee]

Ray I suspect we would agree on many things, but what I failed to mention about my law enforcement career was that I was a K-9 Sgt. I didn't buy trained dogs, I trained them. In fact I had a patrol dog make the Nationals in Ft. Lauderdale Fl. in 94. Not to beat a dead horse I have seen many pits regardless how they were raised wake up one morning and start jumping chainlink fences and killing back yard pets. I know a little about dogs. But, let's not argue, the problem really is the owners. By the way, back in the 60s early 70s I trained roping horses and kept bird dogs, before we ran out of quail. I can hear where your coming from on the stud horse. The only thing that we will never agree on however, is the fact that it was not luck when Texas beat the snot out of OU. OU I believe stands for that Other University.

[creekfreak]

^^^ Hey Dee, put this in yer pipe!

 http://www.lawdogsusa.org/

[Dee]

^^^ Hey Dee, put this in yer pipe!

 http://www.lawdogsusa.org/

How about that. I had rather have a Belgium Malinois or Lab for that type of work because of the inteligence factor. I see this as being like going to the mule races. You can race mules, but, they are not as fast as horses. They race the mules to be different.

[hicntry]

It';s kind of like saying they are a "hunting " dog. As compared to what....another pit. They are catch dogs nothing more.

[creekfreak]

^^^ Hey Dee, put this in yer pipe!

 http://www.lawdogsusa.org/

How about that. I had rather have a Belgium Malinois or Lab for that type of work because of the inteligence factor. I see this as being like going to the mule races. You can race mules, but, they are not as fast as horses. They race the mules to be different.

You really are clueless arent you. Dont take it too personally though, most are.
APBT are the most complete canine athlete ever created by man. Period.

[Ranger J]

Every time I go to town
The guys starting kicking my dog around
I don’t care if he’s just a hound (or a Pit)
They gotta quit kicking  my dog around!
RJ

[Ray Ford]

Dee,

You wrote, "I have seen many Pits...wake up one morning and start jumping chain link fences and killing back yard pets."

Go to my post in Reply #28 on 7/19 and read what I wrote about Pits "coming around."  I set forth the tendency of Pits to "come around" as something that gets inexperienced owners in trouble.  Another thing that gets inexperienced owners in trouble is inadequate containment facilities.  Chain link fencing, especially the light-weight kind sold at your neighborhood home repairs store, is not adequate for Pits.  They, and a lot of other large breed dogs, will tear it to pieces.  And a four-foot yard fence is not adequate for Pits.  They, and a lot of other large breed dogs, will easily jump, or climb, over it.  I have pens made of steel rods with heavy sheep panels with 4-by-4-inch openings welded to the rods--sides and tops.  No pen without a top is adequate.

I said that, while I like the breed, no one who is not at least a semi-professional dog handler should own one.  Adequate containment facilities is something that professional dog handlers understand.

We ain't arguing much.  Mostly agreeing.

[Ray Ford]

Dee,

Since you mentioned horses and bird dogs in the same place, have you ever went on field trials horseback?  I had that opportunity once.  A field trial trainer lived in the little town where I pastored, and we became friends.  Both of us had horses.  He had an absolutely gorgeous black Walker stallion that could walk 30 mph.  He once said to me, "You can always spot a novice at a field trial: they'll be riding a standard 3-gaited horse.  After a couple or three times, they'll show up with a gaited horse--a Saddlebred, a Fox Trotter, or a Walker."  The speed required at trials is faster than a trot and slower than a lope.  On a 3-gaited horse, you're either going too fast or too slow--and the trot will kill you.

Pastoring in small towns in Oklahoma exposes you to a lot of different things.  So does law enforcement/security and journalism.  I did both of those things for a while.

[Dee]

No Ray, I mostly messed with quarter bred horses. Had a stocking legged horse once that was short coupled like a walker when I was a kit though. Never did any type of field trials except Patrol Dog field trials although I owned several bird dogs out of a stud dog called Reagans White Knight. Doubt you heard of him, but back in the early seventies it was a heck of a blood line. That thing about the pit's and the owners. Your absolutely right there. It's kinda like keepin a bear in a chicken coupe. He'll stay till the chicken runs out.

[Ranger J]

I took my four dogs out for a walk this morning.  The pack consists of a 7-year blue heeler mix, an 8 month old golden Aussie mix and an 8-month border collie Aussie mix and a 3-year undersize pit.  On the way home I saw a deer cross up ahead of us while the dogs were off in another direction.  When we got up to that spot the only one who picked up the scent and followed it was…you got it the little pit.
RJ

[Mikey]

Don Fisher - nope buddy, I'm from neu yawk - upastate to youse........

But, speaking of California, there is a fellow in LA who is on the National Geographic channel Friday nights - Cesar Millan - the Dog Whisperer.  This man's show is extremely informative and educational and I strongly recommend anyone with dogs to watch it - it is well worth the time.  He deals with dog behaviors and the pack mentality.  He rehabilitates dogs with bad behaviors and trains people and it works.

You all are soooo right when you say it isn't the dog or the breed but rather the owner(s) and Millan's show demonstrates that incredibly well.  He is also man enough, and professional enough, to state outright whether he can help someone or not.  One particular show had him asking a woman what she would do if she had to choose between her children and her dog and would you believe she couldn't answer him - he told her he wouldn't be able to help her unless she made that decision.  Other examples are just as good if not better and the show is a hoot to watch.  You find yourself following his advice and teachings pretty quickly.

The interesting part of all this is that he has a pack of 37 dogs and he is the pack leader, plain and simple, and they conform to what he wants.  On occasion he will adopt out one of his dogs - usually a Pit and when he does he will always include a picture of him with the dog.  One tenet though - if for any reason you have to give up the dog it goes back to him, period. 

I now have 5 dogs and it is a pack.  Right now they are all crashed from their morning run and that is good.  Tonight he is on the Nat'l Geographic channel at 8:00pm I believe and I will watch that show again.  Mikey.