Author Topic: Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?  (Read 1503 times)

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Offline kaferhaus

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« on: April 16, 2005, 04:23:45 AM »
or can it only be done the other way around??? I don't know if the frames are different or not...  I'm curious if I can just buy a handgun stock set and barrel so as to use 1 frame for both???
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Offline tlyne

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Carbine to Pistol. Pistol to Carbine
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2005, 05:07:51 AM »
In the layest One Good Shoot there is a letter from Thompson/ Center Arms Company,Inc responsing to a letter from Ed Kirkpatrick about the US  Supreme ruling the legality of switching Encore and contenders components between rifles and pistols or vise versa.  You new comers  need to joint the Thompson/Center Assoication (TCA) and get the facts, informations,history and just good fun. A membership application can be  found at "Onegoodshot.org"
Twyman

Offline Lynn Alan Kietzman

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2005, 05:19:56 AM »
So, the answer to kaferhaus's question was/is?
Shoot safely.....shoot tomorrow.

Offline Flash

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2005, 12:16:23 PM »
It sounds like a case of, "Since I paid money for the info, I won't share it"
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Offline tlyne

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Switching pistols to carbines
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2005, 03:54:11 PM »
Yes, you can switch pistols to carbines and back by US Supreme Court ruling. Sorry, I did not answer your question better.
Twyman

Offline Keith L

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2005, 11:28:13 PM »
The question was can a G-2 rifle be switched to a handgun.  What did TC say about that?
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Offline wallynut

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2005, 04:03:45 AM »
The main thing to remember about legal issue of switching barrels is:

1) Do not use any barrel shorter then 16" with a rifle stock

2) shotgun barrels must be used with rifle stocks
aim small, miss small

Offline skb2706

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2005, 06:53:30 AM »
The answer to your question is yes the frame from a handgun and the frame from a rifle is exactly the same.
The issue then becomes a legal question about whether you can change the legal description from one to the other.

Fact remains yes it can be done.......but as others have said rifle must have a barrel at least 16". Pistol can have any length barrel.

Offline kaferhaus

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2005, 10:06:42 AM »
Thanks guys, you've been very helpful and it's apprecaited!!

Guess I'll be looking for some G2 handgun stocks and barrels now!

don't you know my Wife will be happy!!!!!!


 :)
"Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

Offline handirifle

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2005, 11:20:20 AM »
All the information I have been given, says it depends on how the gun was sold originally.  If sold as a pistol, then it can go either way.  If sold as a rifle, barrels no shorter than 16" period.  This is what I am told!

Where and how does one join the TC association to get this Supreme Court info?  I'd like to see how they approached the question and how the answer was stated.
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Offline Tad Houston

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2005, 11:36:31 AM »
To join the association, get ahold of Ed Kirkpatrick of Eds contenders. Click on the banner here at GBO and his web site has his phone number. :D

Offline Keith L

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2005, 12:23:11 PM »
If this letter from TC is supposed to be the word on changing then it would be a service to TC shooters to post it here.  If it is supposed to be restricted to TC asssociation guys then I don't know what to say.  It would be foolish for TC to intend that, and poor business.  Not being amember yet this may help me make up my mind.
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Offline iiibbb

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2005, 12:34:04 PM »
Second Circuit Court of Appeals

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/thompson_center_v_us.txt

What this appears to say is that TC orriginally discussed the carbine kit with BATF who seemed to say that it was ok to go from pistol to rifle.  After TC started marketing it, the BATF appeared to have a change of heart and said that once it became a rifle, it couldn't go back.  TC had paid the taxes, and then sought a refund for whatever they were doing... they went to trial and the court agreed with the ATF.  They appealed with 2nd Circuit, and the decision was reversed.

The following link I haven't read carefully... but it did contain this item

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/us_v_tcenter_br1.txt

   A retired BATF expert examined a complete Contender pistol and
a complete Contender carbine.  It took him over 10 minutes to
remove and assemble parts on these guns in such a way as to
simulate the time it would take to convert a pistol into a carbine
using a carbine kit. (C.A. App. 48.)

     Any rifle or shotgun barrel is capable of being readily made
into a short-barrel NFA firearm with a hacksaw.  A 21" Contender
carbine barrel can be cut off in 25 seconds with a common hacksaw.
(C.A. App. 103-104.) Moreover, a complete Contender pistol and a
complete Contender carbine are capable of having parts exchanged to
make an NFA firearm, but BATF concedes that these items do not
constitute a short barrel rifle. (Pet.  App. 3a, 21a.)


Basically the gist from the above links is, don't configure it as a rifle with a <16" barrel.

The next case is from the 10th circuit.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=11th&navby=case&no=978425man

It is a little more convoluded because it involves a criminal, an AR15 upper and lower (seperate) with a 14" barrel and a short barrelled shotgun.

This case does discuss the previous case.

One thing it says is that the previous decision specifically applied to the TC kits...

In Thompson/Center,  a plurality of three Justices ultimately concluded that it was ambiguous whether Thompson/Center Arms had "made" a short-barreled rifle for purposes of the NFA by packaging together the pistol and the parts kit. Id.  at 518, 112 S.Ct. 2102. In the course of reaching this conclusion, the plurality focused on the NFA's definition of "make" in 26 U.S.C. ยง 5845(i).   8    Even though the plurality decided that the definition of "make" was ambiguous as applied to the specific combination of parts packaged by Thompson/Center Arms, the plurality recognized that the definition clearly "cover more than final assembly" of a "firearm" and that " some  disassembled aggregation of parts must be included." Id.  at 510, 112 S.Ct. 2102 (emphasis supplied). Moreover, the plurality recognized two factual situations in which, under the NFA's definition of "make," packaging together unassembled parts would clearly constitute "making" a "firearm." Id.  at 510-12, 112 S.Ct. 2102.

Mostly this case complains that the 1991 case isn't at all satisfying... at least for generally application to the problem of guns that have many parts and configurations.


Finally, here is a US Supreme Court appeal in 1992.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=504&page=512

This case upholds the first.  You actually have to assemble it for it to be illegal... taking the second case into account, this seems to specifically apply to TC pistols and rifles.  Something about a rule of lenity

I agree with the plurality that the application of the National Firearms Act (NFA) to Thompson/Center's pistol and conversion kit is sufficiently ambiguous to trigger the rule of lenity, leading to the conclusion that the kit is not covered.

--I found other links... one sec

Offline iiibbb

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2005, 12:42:23 PM »
Here's another discussion

http://www.impactsites2000.com/site3/Class3info.htm

Just search for "Thompson Center" to find their discussion... but according to this, it's ok as long as you don't assemble it in the inappropriate configuration.

I think this is the same document... I might have had the dates wrong on the above cases.

http://www.ak-47.net/legal/nfa_faq.txt



By the way... I'm not a lawyer... but this information seems pretty straight-forward.

Offline iiibbb

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2005, 12:58:29 PM »
For what it's worth... I think it's obnoxious to require membership to an organization to give access to information this critical to people.  It's a public service, and an organization that doesn't seem to have some commitment to serving the community isn't worth my attention and doesn't deserve my money.   It's not like the info isn't public domain either.

Offline handirifle

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2005, 04:39:48 PM »
iiibbb
I agree with your last statement.
Thanks for the informative posts.  Will have to spend some time reading the courts responses.
God, Family, and guns, in that order!

Offline iiibbb

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2005, 05:26:41 PM »
http://www.gunlaw.com/contraband.phtml

Might be state dependent... in California... might be bad to even own a TC pistol barrel and a rifle stock.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_169_28/ai_114475581

This article mentions TC briefly

Offline Bullseye

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2005, 05:47:47 PM »
Whatever configuration it is in, just make sure it is legal (ex. no barrel shorter than 16" with a buttstock).  This is debated over and over, there is not clear answer that I have ever seen.  My opinion is the only way this could be officially researched to see if your gun was legal per the way it was sold would take much work by some official.  If they are looking at your gun and doing research like that, you have done something bad enough that the configuration of your gun is the least of your problems!  Keep it legal in whatever form you are using it in and be happy.

Offline skb2706

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2005, 03:29:38 AM »
When it comes right down to it....I have about as much use for the TCA as I do bells around my neck.

Offline Flash

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2005, 02:02:07 PM »
Just hear those sleigh bells jingling, ring ring tingling too. :)
What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger!

Offline str8shooter48

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2005, 10:23:25 AM »
I called the BATF today concerning the same question about my Encore. I explained to the person at the BATF that I purchased my Encore as a muzzleloading rifle. Then asked if it was legal to use that rifle frame with a pistol grip and a pistol barrel.

His answer was yes. As long as I registered the frame and pistol barrel on my New York State pistol permit. Then use it in the proper configuration. Pistol grips with pistol length barrels, and legal length rifle barrels with the rifle buttstock. Thats the answer I got about 4 hours ago.

Offline iiibbb

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2005, 10:26:08 AM »
Post that in the thread I hope the mods sticky

Thanks

Offline crow_feather

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2005, 03:02:54 PM »
I think that I would check with my local police, get a reply on paper if possible, and keep it with my rifle/pistol.  It is nice to prove that you are right after you have been arrested, but there is the chance that the arrest will stay on your police record.  Who really wants to have a police record? I would believe that each state is different than the others and that there might be differences between cities in the same state.

Best of luck

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Offline Greybeard

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2005, 05:42:04 PM »
Guys all the court decisions to date have addressed ONLY a pistol to rifle. At that date TC sold no rifles so there was no reason to discuss could a frame originally a rifle be made a handgun. The question back then was could a handgun after being turned into a rifle via the kit then be returned to pistol status. Bottom line was yes. That does not and did not address the issue of can a frame starting life as a rifle be turned into a handgun.

In general this is a violation of BATFE rules and I think even Congress has law to that effect.

So can you do it? Physically sure. Legally? Well now that's a good question. Not according to federal law or BATFE regulations. According to the US Constitution? Sure.

But don't look for me to be the martyr to find out how the courts will eventually decide this issue. Until it is decided in court you're asking to be the test case if you do it. Are you really so cheap you prefer to save the $250 cost of a new frame and at the same time risk your entire net worth and many years in prison? That's dumb in my opinion. Just plain dumb.


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Offline 2520

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2005, 02:00:18 AM »
Graybeard:  Your interpretation of BATFE regs, Federal law, and (in Michigan) local laws is exactly what I learned when I bought my G2 as a rifle.  I bought it through a FFL dealer without a purchase permit (required for a pistol) and without registration requirements (also required for pistols in Michigan).  The package included just the stock, action,and fore end-no barrel.  I bought that seperate.  So far I am legal.  Should I convert the frame to a pistol and get caught at it, I am in deep do-do local, state and federal.  Took some while to get this information straight and I had refrained from buying a Contender because I did not want a pistol.   I was informed that BATFE is provided with the frame numbers that TC sells as rifles and that it is not legal to convert these frames to pistols.  This is fine with me and I do not intend to be a test case either.  Jail does not appeal to me.  Good call, Graybeard.

Offline Keith L

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2005, 02:55:54 AM »
I have been hanging out here since October 2003 and in that short time this topic must have come up ten times with the same results.  Wisdom and experience is shared and embraced by some, and rejected by others.  I am sure there are folks out there converting rifle to pistol and thinking nothing of it.  And chances are they will shoot for a lifetime without problem.  But they may be putting themselves in danger of the hassle of a lifetime.

I am grateful for those folks who don't listen.  It is out of those ranks the court case will come that settles this for the rest of us.  I just don't want to be that test case.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline Bullseye

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2005, 07:42:29 AM »
So has anyone called T/C to find out if they can tell you how a frame started out in life?  If they give the BATF a list of serial numbers, they should be able to tell.  I have boughten 3 used frames.  I have now idea how they started out life.  I know what form I bought them in, but the previous owner could have changed it.

Online Graybeard

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2005, 11:06:42 AM »
Quote
So has anyone called T/C to find out if they can tell you how a frame started out in life? If they give the BATF a list of serial numbers, they should be able to tell. I have boughten 3 used frames. I have now idea how they started out life. I know what form I bought them in, but the previous owner could have changed it.


TC seems to have pretty well stopped responding to questions. But back when they took e-mail questions Tim Pancurek many times said they report ALL frames as HANDGUNS. Once upon a time that might even have been true. I doubt it today since they actually ship rifles now. I highly doubt they ship a rifle and report it as a handgun.

I'd be afraid to believe any answer you get from TC unless it came from the legal department and IN WRITING with a company spokesman in a position to both know and to speak for TC. Likewise I feel it foolish to believe anything any BATFE employee says by phone. If it's not in writing with an orginal signature and that signature is from a person who is in a position to make policy then it really don't count. It's just an opinion and you know about them.

Some day someone who insists on doing this WILL be the test case we need. I wish them well but sure wouldn't wanna be them. Ain't gonna be them.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline mjbgalt

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2005, 01:21:53 PM »
does anyone else think that this whole issue should, in a free society, be a moot point?

lets face it...any citizen should be able to possess whatever he/she wants to possess, without fear of government persecution, unless that citizen uses such a possession to infringe on other citizens' rights.

why do we let them punish us for things we havent done? thats like saying we cant have knives because we might eventually cut someone.

what harm would a contender pistol with a rifle frame be? further, what harm would come from someone possessing a "rifle" that is, in total, 20 inches long? none, unless it is used in a crime.

since when do we confiscate and punish BEFORE crimes occur?

so basically our elected officials brand all of us a probable criminals. in fact, the probability is so high in their minds, that we cant even own one.

God, when is this idiocy going to end? Can we not have true freedom in the sole country in the world where freedom is a matter of everyday life?

-Matt
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline Keith L

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Can a G2 rifle be converted to a handgun?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2005, 02:14:55 PM »
The system is bureaucratic and bloated, fed by liberal and conservative alike.  Further, civil liberties have been more deeply eroded in the past four years than any other time I can remember (and that's a while).  I become more convinced each day that our guns will be more likely threatened by the right than the left.  Conservative leadership is getting into lockstep.  Liberals can't agree on anything.  When the right decides that gun ownership is a threat watch out!
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin