Author Topic: Got an Idea-Military Service Select line...... (Read 1711 times)

myarmor · « **on:** April 17, 2005, 09:46:41 AM »

So I was sitting around hoghunting the other day and started think about these fine rifles we all come to love. And also about the limited availibility of certain caliber barrels that aren't around anymore that everyone wants.
So I thought what if H&R made a line of lets call it "Military ServiceSelect" rifles chambered in a few of the old tried and true military rounds, like 6.5x55 , 8mm, 7.62x54R, and the upcoming 7.62X39. And in addition, they could add what calibers they already have in there lineup to it as well, 30-06, 308, and 223. I see that it would cost money to chamber for new calibers, but also they would save money on the ones they already have in their lineup as the ones I just mentioned. In addition to this "New" model, they could also play around with the idea of different stock styles. Be it Synthetic or Wood-like the Manlicher style seen before.
Just any idea :grin: what do you guys think?

Mac11700 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 17, 2005, 07:43:17 PM »

If the higher ups at NEF are pressured enough...they might...if everyone would call them over the next week and ask for it...it's possible...

Mac

jgalar · « **Reply #2 on:** April 17, 2005, 08:39:17 PM »

Why would I buy a NEF when I can buy a mauser or mosin nagant for less money?

mt3030 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 17, 2005, 09:04:17 PM »

Lets see.....
..to have a rifle is just as easy to use for a lefty as a righty?
..to get a rifle with an excellant warranty?
..to get a rifle that had been make in the last 50 years with modern steels?
..to get a rifle that is easy to scope?
..to have a rifle that you can have the ability to change calibers at will, and still not cost you an arm and leg?
..to have a rifle that is safe to carry with a round in the chamber, yet is fast to raise/cock at the same time? A rife that doesn't need a safety, which most experienced shooters do not trust anyway.
..to get a rifle that is easy to restock and which has several styles/colors available from the factory? Not to mention after market stocks available?
..to get a rifle that comes with a good SINGLE stage trigger, and is easy to lighten if wanted?
..to be able to have modern hunting calibers such as 25-06, 30-06, 308, 243, 7mmx08, etc-etc..(You get the idea.)
..to use an unique rifle that carrys well and doesn't tire you out on a long walk or climb?
And maybe most important, to be part of a group like this family of Handi lovers, who will donate their valuable time to do research, answer questions, give advice and generaly support each other like no other gun nuts I've found.
I'm sure I've missed a bunch of reasons. I'm also sure someone will provide them.
Wally

Mac11700 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 18, 2005, 04:05:33 AM »

mt3030 just about covered it ....but I'll add...even though I know some will disagree...

Not to mention being able to get a rifle in various calibers that will shoot as well or out shoot most production bolt rifles with less fuss...for a lot less money..

Oh...I almost forgot...how about...they are just plain fun to shoot for the whole family...beginners as well as experianced riflemen...and that by teaching our children how to shoot with one of these Handi rifles...we are teaching them a very valuable lesson...that the first shot...is the most important shot....

Mac

MtJerry · « **Reply #5 on:** April 18, 2005, 04:08:29 AM »

Quote from: mt3030

Lets see.....
..to have a rifle is just as easy to use for a lefty as a righty?
..to get a rifle with an excellant warranty?
..to get a rifle that had been make in the last 50 years with modern steels?
..to get a rifle that is easy to scope?
..to have a rifle that you can have the ability to change calibers at will, and still not cost you an arm and leg?
..to have a rifle that is safe to carry with a round in the chamber, yet is fast to raise/cock at the same time? A rife that doesn't need a safety, which most experienced shooters do not trust anyway.
..to get a rifle that is easy to restock and which has several styles/colors available from the factory? Not to mention after market stocks available?
..to get a rifle that comes with a good SINGLE stage trigger, and is easy to lighten if wanted?
..to be able to have modern hunting calibers such as 25-06, 30-06, 308, 243, 7mmx08, etc-etc..(You get the idea.)
..to use an unique rifle that carrys well and doesn't tire you out on a long walk or climb?
And maybe most important, to be part of a group like this family of Handi lovers, who will donate their valuable time to do research, answer questions, give advice and generaly support each other like no other gun nuts I've found.
I'm sure I've missed a bunch of reasons. I'm also sure someone will provide them.
Wally

Nothing more to add ... Wally nailed it ...

BnSC · « **Reply #6 on:** April 18, 2005, 06:17:57 AM »

I'm not in total agreement.. The points to the advantages are well made and duly noted.

However, I actually LIKE the idea of carrying a 50+ year old gun w/ me to the deer stand. One of my main hunting rifles is a #1mk3 British Enfield. It does have a no-gunsmithing scope mount. Two years ago I was able to take a 4 pt. w/ 1905 dated M91 Mosin-Nagant (open sights). I have a 1905 CG swede mauser that I hope to bloody this season (open sights). I've taken a handful w/ an SKS (open sights). My new custom mauser is being built on a 1944 dated mauser action and barrel.

Even though that 4 pt. wasn't even close to being the best deer I've killed. It is one of the most memorable because of the weapon used.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy using my SB2 for hunting, but kills made w/ the old guns just have more appeal to me........

mt3030 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 18, 2005, 06:38:58 AM »

BnSC:
You betcha!! I love the old rifles too. My hunting buddy and I have taken whitetail, mule deer and antelope with 303s, 6.5 Swedes and 7.65x53s. In fact my buddy used only a 303 for all his hunting until getting his Handi 270 last month. He can't wait to go kill something! (We like both apples and oranges!!) Is this a great hobby or what?!
Wally

Longcruise · « **Reply #8 on:** April 18, 2005, 07:14:20 AM »

Quote

Not to mention being able to get a rifle in various calibers that will shoot as well or out shoot most production bolt rifles with less fuss...for a lot less money..

Hmm... I have had personal and up close experience with five NEF rifles, two .223's, one .308 and two 30-30's. Then, in comparison I have on the wall two k31's, one Mosin 91/30, and one Enfield. All the milsurp guns will outshoot all but one of the handi rifles (30-30) and the 30-30 (with scope) doesn't beat the milsurps by much!!

I surely agree with the long list of reason why an nef is a good choice, but I'm also in the league that would rather carry a 50 year old (or older) milsurp gun on a hunt than a modern gun of any make or model. :grin:

myarmor · « **Reply #9 on:** April 18, 2005, 07:59:21 AM »

Well I also see a few of your points. The last 2 deer i took were with 1) A Spanish Mauser 308 and 2) My Finnish M-39 Nagant. I absolutely love my C&R's.
But still I believe it would be cool to have them in a Handi. The ability to scope one a heck of a lot easier in especially nice. Plus too it would make for a fine collectors piece down the road.
I would love to try my skill with these old calibers in a single shot.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** April 18, 2005, 08:03:53 AM »

Carrying a vintage firearm has lots of appeal to most any hunter who shoots a lot, I would think, but I took that a step farther by carrying a .50 cal Lancaster flintlock off and on for 10yrs and hunting exlcusively with it for 4 yrs, took several nice bucks with it, although I did allow some modernization in the latter years with aperture rear sight and firesight up front to insure my old eyes the best sight picture for a clean kill....Killed my 2nd and 3rd buck with an 03A3 about 45 yrs ago, then hunted a year with an old russian 7.65 (??) auto loader that liked to leave have the case in the chamber....too much headspace IIRC....but it killed a deer before I got rid of it....Killed a nice 5 point bull elk with a 7.5x55 K31 about 30yrs ago, I do believe that's the last military rifle I carried.....Hope to make meat with a Handi this year as it will be my first hunting year carrying one....just have to decide on which one to start with!!! :grin:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 18, 2005, 08:12:58 AM »

Longcruise...I've had 1 25-06...2- 270's..2- 30-30's..2- 308's...2 30-06's..(and another one one the way to me)...and 1 35 Whelen...all of them would shoot 1 moa or better...with factory ammo...I can't begin to tell you how many different bolt guns...milsurp type and standard sporter types I've owned in the past...save for the 1 30-06 Garand. and 1 270 Winchester Westerner....that would shoot as good... right out of box... as what my Handi's would...and this is with factory ammo too...so there always 2 sides to every coin :wink:

Mac

myarmor · « **Reply #12 on:** April 18, 2005, 08:34:36 AM »

With that note just think what we could do with one of these old calibers in a Handi. :-) I personally would love to play a little more with the 8mm.
I don't think it get's a lot of recognition.

BnSC · « **Reply #13 on:** April 18, 2005, 08:37:04 AM »

I'll grant you that the handi's overall may be more accurate. However, when shooting at a deer's vitals @ 100 yds, that difference won't matter to the deer. In fact, the majority of my shots on deer are way less than 100 yds. I'm not talking about accuracy problems due to excessive wear and so on.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see these old calibers chambered in the Handi, but for me, I'd rather carry the real thing if I'm going to be shooting open sights anyways. The .303 and 6.5x55 would be my first two choices off that list

Longcruise · « **Reply #14 on:** April 18, 2005, 12:25:33 PM »

Quote

Longcruise...I've had 1 25-06...2- 270's..2- 30-30's..2- 308's...2 30-06's..(and another one one the way to me)...and 1 35 Whelen...all of them would shoot 1 moa or better...with factory ammo

Well obviously there are some good ones and some bad ones and I got your share of bad ones :-D I expect you to make this right you know! :-D

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** April 18, 2005, 12:57:21 PM »

LC, you must have my share of bad ones too cuz I have more than Mac and they all shoot good too!! :-D :-D :-D

My last range trip with the .243 Ultra Varmint....

Longcruise · « **Reply #16 on:** April 18, 2005, 01:22:08 PM »

Quote

LC, you must have my share of bad ones too

That's right big of you to step up like that Quick. I take it that you are conceding that you owe me too?

BTW, I notice that you are a "three shot group guy". :shock:

Please take the rifle back to the range and shoot 3 five shot groups and post. :-D

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** April 18, 2005, 01:25:44 PM »

Well, they're hunting rifles and the day that I need 2 or more shots to bring down any big game is the day I quit hunting! Three's plenty....I'm really only interested in the first one, that's the one that counts.... :wink: I'll shoot some 5 shot groups for the postal match for ya!!!

Zero · « **Reply #18 on:** April 18, 2005, 02:36:10 PM »

Quick, A little trivia..
When measuring the holes in your target
measure from the left side of the first hole
to the left side of the second hole, this will
give you the exact centers, if your using a
tape you can get the dia and the centers all
in one measurement...{this is boredom at it`s best.}

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** April 18, 2005, 02:41:04 PM »

Or you can measure the outside and subtract the diameter of the bullet which is the method I prefer.... :wink:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2005, 07:42:27 PM »

Quote from: Longcruise

Quote
Longcruise...I've had 1 25-06...2- 270's..2- 30-30's..2- 308's...2 30-06's..(and another one one the way to me)...and 1 35 Whelen...all of them would shoot 1 moa or better...with factory ammo

Well obviously there are some good ones and some bad ones and I got your share of bad ones :-D I expect you to make this right you know! :-D

Never

...I'll tell you what...I want to keep the trend going...so...ifin I get one that only shoots over moa...I'll let you have first dibbs on it :-D :-D

BnSc:

You might get your wish granted on the Britt...sooner than you might think...I found this out a while back...check out the link...it needs to be updated though......the 7.62x39 will be the nominal diameter bore size now...so the upper management is listening.....http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=57139

Mac

Longcruise · « **Reply #21 on:** April 19, 2005, 07:45:24 AM »

Quote

Never ...I'll tell you what...I want to keep the trend going...so...ifin I get one that only shoots over moa...I'll let you have first dibbs on it

Heck if it's just over then it's a good shooting Handi and I might be a player!! :grin:

Quote

You might get your wish granted on the Britt...sooner than you might think...I

So are you saying they will be in.311 or .312? If they are, I'll be looking at one with two 7.62X39 barrels. One to keep as is and one chamer in .303. I could also envision a third barrel in 7.62X54R :grin:

Quote

I'm really only interested in the first one, that's the one that counts.

Sure could noit agree more. OTOH, a chance three shot group tells you nothing about where the first one or two shots might go. Three or four five shot groups will tell you a truer average of the guns group size and the shot furthest from poa will tell you the extreme difference possible (and Murphy's law will prevail on the hunt

) between your poa and poi.

Every rifle I have ever owned produced one or more three shot groups just like the one you posted. OTOH, the stinkers would show a whole different picture when an additional 12 shots were laid down on top of the first three. Not talking rapid fire here but rather a full colling of the barrel and a series of four or five three shot groups laid down on top of each other on the same target.

The group you posted is very nice, and I'm not saying your gun will not lay 15 or 20 shots within an inch or less. I'm just saying that one three shot group does not mean much. It's what I call "an internet group"

Once again, not saying that your group is not in charachter with your rifle's ability.

Quote

I'll shoot some 5 shot groups for the postal match for ya!!!

I'm not up on the current postal match but will look it up and might shoot some promising cast loads in my 30-30. It's my only remaining Handi, but I could end up owning a russian as stated above.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 19, 2005, 08:28:02 AM »

Longcruise:

Quote

Every rifle I have ever owned produced one or more three shot groups just like the one you posted. OTOH, the stinkers would show a whole different picture when an additional 12 shots were laid down on top of the first three. Not talking rapid fire here but rather a full colling of the barrel and a series of four or five three shot groups laid down on top of each other on the same target.

The group you posted is very nice, and I'm not saying your gun will not lay 15 or 20 shots within an inch or less. I'm just saying that one three shot group does not mean much. It's what I call "an internet group" Smile

I couldn't DIS-agree more...a 3 shot group from a Handi is more than adequate to tell you what your rifle will do...especially in the larger calibers...first of...these aren't bolt guns...they aren't bench rest guns...and seldom in the field with the exception to this will we be firing 5-12 times unless we are varmint hunting...Your first shot...your very first shot is the most important shot you will make with a single shot...and while having a rifle that will put 12 shots into the same group without walking up the paper is great...it isn't a gennerally accepted practice with these type rifles...

Now...in those calibers that will be used for extended shooting...Yes...I agree totally...this is why we will float or bed the rifles fore arm...and practice till the cows come home...but using a single shot for many is a step up...how?...simple...when we get to a point of Limiting ourselves to using a single shot...and making the first shot count when going after big game...we have made the consious effort to make the first shot count...we aren't interested in the " Spray & Pray " attitude... therefore...having a rifle that will place 3 shots from a cold barrel in that tight a group...especially factory ammo... is about optimum for us...or for those who don't reload..

For those others who see these inexpensive rifles as a means to be able to own several calibers economically...and if they are using them because of budget restraints...and they can afford them...it will make them better marksmen in the long run too...they won't be dependent on having to have multiple shots to hunt with...and will learn the value of having to connect with the first shot...the first time they do...... as the saying goes when that happens...is priceless...

As to quicks groups...they are a great indication of just how well this paticular factory load groups for his 243...anything else will only show if the rifle needs work to maintain the groupsize when more shots are fired...but since he doesn't shoot 5-12 shots at what he's hunting...and believes as I do...that the first shot is what truly counts...anymore would be a waste...with factory ammo...and I'm sure when he starts working up new loads for his rifles...there will be several 5-10 shot groups involved...only to determine the averages of the load...not the rifle...

Mac

BnSC · « **Reply #23 on:** April 19, 2005, 10:30:43 AM »

For me, three shot groups are fine for patterning a hunting weapon... As it has been stated, I'm concerned w/ shot #1. If shot #2 is fired, there better be a good reason... like deer #2 :grin:

For other activites, it will vary. In the C&R matches I participate in, we may shoot 10 to 50 rounds depending on the course of fire. Sometimes multiple weapons are used. For my C&R's, I at least like to see what a 10 shot group looks like. That let's me see if it is suitable for using in matches or just playing at the range....

Longcruise · « **Reply #24 on:** April 19, 2005, 12:45:14 PM »

My comments never had anything to do with "patterning a hunting gun".

I addressed the value of a three shot group in determining the accuracy potential of a rifle. Three shots are statistically insignificant!

Like I said, The worst rifles I've ever owned accuracy wise all shot more than one great three shot group. Some shot one hole groups. :shock: They were meaningless in terms of analyzing the accuracy of that firearm.

If you wish to use three shot groups as a benchmark, then shoot seven of them and average them. Better yet, shoot two or three ten shot groups. Let the gun cool, clean it and shoot foulers during the process. Make every shot just like the first one or two out of the barrel. No "called flyers" unless they are called before looking at the impact point.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** April 19, 2005, 02:46:21 PM »

I couldn't have said it better than Mac put it! I've never shot more than a 3 shot group in any hunting rifle, and I don't intend on starting now....if it was good enough for my dad and his dad, it's good enough for me....I've only once shot more than 1 shot at an animal, shot 4 shots once, but I won't elaborate on that one, let's just say that there were more than one animal and they all ended up dead....4 shots.... 4 dead critters!!! They didn't care what kind of group I shot......not at all!!! :eek:

Now for varmint hunting, I do shoot more shots, lots more....I shot my 22 hornet the same day I shot the .243, 10 shots in less than 1", and most of em were in less than ½" with a few "flyers"! And I certainly can't rule out the nut behind the trigger as being the biggest cause of those flyers!!!! :grin:

Longcruise · « **Reply #26 on:** April 19, 2005, 05:21:08 PM »

Quote

I've never shot more than a 3 shot group in any hunting rifle, and I don't intend on starting now....if it was good enough for my dad and his dad, it's good enough for me

Well, my dad and his dad never shot any groups at all out of any rifle, so I guess if I were to tread directly in their footsteps I could do all my shooting and hunting with a shot gun with slugs without ever wasting any ammo on practice or I could pack a rifle and the remnants the same 20 round box of ammo on every hunting trip year after year for 20 or 25 years.

In any case, my comments were never related to hunting and first shot out of the barrel or follow up shots etc. I addressed the value of a three shot group in assessing the accuracy potential of a rifle. I guess it's been good enough for the gun rag writers for years (probably an economy measure) and it's become an institution with the American shooter. C'est l'vie :?

stiff neck · « **Reply #27 on:** April 19, 2005, 10:12:17 PM »

Why is 5 the magical number for a group? Because you have 5 fingers to count on? Or is it because 5 is 1/2 of 10, which is what our decimal system is based on.

Why stop there, why not shoot 6-shot groups? How about 7-shot groups?

In my opinion, 3-shot groups give me a very good idea of whether or not I will be able to hit what I'm shooting at. And that's the whole point of shooting groups, yes? Like it's been said, it's really only the FIRST shot that matters anyways. Plus, the first shot is the funnest! It's the challenge that keeps us coming back for more.

Longcruise · « **Reply #28 on:** April 20, 2005, 04:28:52 AM »

Quote

Why is 5 the magical number for a group?

It's not, as far as I'm concerned. It's just a bit more "magical" than three, whereas 10 would be further "magical"

Quote

Why stop there, why not shoot 6-shot groups? How about 7-shot groups?

Yeah! Why not?

Quote

In my opinion, 3-shot groups give me a very good idea of whether or not I will be able to hit what I'm shooting at

Agreed.

Quote

And that's the whole point of shooting groups, yes?

That can be one point of shooting groups.

Quote

Like it's been said, it's really only the FIRST shot that matters anyways.

And like I said, my comments about the value of a single three shot group in analyzing the accuracy potential of a rifle were just that. Others addressed first shot on game, etc., which were not germane to my comments at all.

Quote

Because you have 5 fingers to count on?

No, it has nothing to do with math comprehension. OTOH, your comments and those of others in this thread indicate a lack of reading comprehension!

myarmor · « **Reply #29 on:** April 20, 2005, 05:16:57 AM »

Wow you guys got all technical about groups :?
I was just curious of what you all thought about having our beloved Handi's chambered in some of the best military calibers of past and recent years.
Perhaps someone should open a new thread about measuring groups if they want to debate about it-got a little off topic here I think

Author Topic: Got an Idea-Military Service Select line...... (Read 1711 times)

Zero