Author Topic: Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol  (Read 1492 times)

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Offline iiibbb

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« on: April 20, 2005, 09:58:09 AM »
Given that it seems to pop up from time to time, I think the moderators should sticky this post.  I've had more than one person warn me that you can't put pistol parts on a TC firearm that was sold as a rifle, but vice-versa is ok.

P.S.  I am not a lawyer

I found another article from the lawyer who represented TC in the Supreme Court Case.  To sum up all of the below information:  

(1) It is perfectly legal to own and convert a T/C condender (and I assume Encore) between rifle and pistol configurations as long as you do not configure it illegally.  

(2) Depending on the state (ones where handguns must be registered), you may have to register any frame you plan to put pistol parts.  

(3) According to one of the links below, which may or may not be accurate, all bets may be off for California.  If you own the rifle, you don't want any part of a pistol barrel.

I hope this is informative to people.

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html

Analysis of the Supreme Court Opinion in Thompson/Center Arms

by Stephen P. Halbrook, Counsel for Thompson/Center Arms


On June 8, 1992, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Contender pistol and carbine kit are not a short-barreled rifle under the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. §5845(a)(3). This means that a consumer may possess the pistol with its 10" barrel and may use the kit parts to make a rifle with the 21" barrel, as long as the shoulder stock is not assembled onto the receiver at the same time as the 10" barrel.

Justice Souter, joined by Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justice O'Connor, wrote the opinion of the Court. The Court stated the issue to be whether a short-barreled rifle is "made" by the aggregation of finished parts that can be readily assembled.

The government noted that a bicycle is still a bicycle even when unassembled. The Court rejects this analogy, because the Contender items can be assembled three different ways, and are intended to be assembled only two ways.

Justice Souter wrote that "a set of parts that could be used to make nothing but a short-barreled rifle" would, if there is an "aggregation" of such, be a short-barreled rifle. The opinion states that "a combination of parts that could only be assembled into an NFA-regulated firearm" would be such a firearm.[1] Further, a non-NFA gun becomes an NFA firearm if "placed together with a further part or parts that would have no use in association with the gun except to convert it into a firearm." As examples, the court mentions a carbine with a machinegun conversion kit,[2] and a pistol and attachable shoulder stock found in different drawers of the same dresser.

The opinion notes that some parts could be used without assembling a firearm, but finds that unlikely because of "the utter uselessness of placing the converting parts with the others except for just such a conversion." This suggests that the parts must be in close physical proximity, and questions a prosection based on mere constructive possession.[3]

By contrast, the Contender parts are capable of assembly as a long-barreled rifle. The Court minimizes the fact that other NFA firearms, but not rifle, have combination-of-parts definitions.[4] It states that a firearm is "made" not just if it is "put together," but also if it is "otherwise produced." 26 U.S.C. §5845(i).

Souter writes that, while a rifle may be a combination of parts, the definition of machinegun as a combination of parts in the possession of a person (§5845(b)) "sweeps broader than the aggregation of parts clearly covered by 'making' a rifle. The machinegun parts need not even be in any particular proximity to each other."[5]

Souter recognizes the object of the NFA to regulate certain weapons likely to be used in crime, but finds no guidance here or in the legislative history.

The opinion concludes that the statute is ambiguous, and that the NFA has criminal penalties and no requirement of willfulness. Thus, the Court applies the rule of lenity,[6] i.e., that ambiguous criminal statutes are interpreted against the government and in favor of persons to whom they may apply, and concludes that the Contender pistol and carbine kit are not a short-barreled rifle.

Justice Scalia, joined by Justice Thomas, wrote a concurring opinion. Scalia agrees with the plurality opinion by Souter that the rule of lenity applies. He opine that the ambiguity arises over whether mere parts constitute a "firearm," not over whether a parts kit has a useful non-NFA purpose, the criterion of the plurality which is not found in the statute. The key to why the Contender items are not a short-barreled rifle is the fact that other NFA firearms are defined as combinations of parts, while "rifle" is not.

Scalia rejects the plurality's imputed redundancy between "putting together" and "otherwise producing a firearm" as definitions of "make." The plurality's interpretation creates a redundancy in rejecting the significance of combination-of-parts definitions.

The plurality's reliance on a committee report instead of the statute to explain the definition of silencer, according to Scalia, "resorts to that last hope of lost interpretive causes, that St. Jude of the hagiology of statutory construction, legislative history. As I have said before, reliance on that source is particularly inappropriate in determining the meaning of a statute with criminal application."

Scalia also points out that a "rifle" in §5845(c) is "intended to be fired from the shoulder," whereas the Contender items are intended to be fired from the shoulder only with a 21-inch barrel. The shoulder stock itself is carved with a warning not to use with a barrel less than 16 inches.

Justice White, joined by Justices Blackmun, Stevens, and Kennedy, dissented. This dissent would have held that the Contender items are an NFA firearm because they are "a collection of parts that may be readily assembled into a short-barreled rifle." While noting of the plurality opinion that the statute is silent about whether parts have utility for non-NFA purposes, the statute is equally silent about a "readily assembled" test.

Justice Stevens also filed a dissenting opinion. He states that he would have applied the rule of lenity and held for Thompson/Center had this been a criminal case, but does not explain why different rules should apply for criminal and civil cases to interpret the same statutory term. Here, Stevens would find that the parts are a short-barreled rifle. Stevens then set forth the following, which is the only policy-driven statement made in any of the opinions: "This statute serves the critical objective of regulating the manufacture and distribution of concealable firearms--dangerous weapons that are a leading cause of countless crimes that occur every day throughout the Nation." Stevens does not claim that the Contender items are used in crime, or explain why the statute applies here.

Based on their ridicule of the government's position at oral argument, the fact that Justices White and Kennedy dissented is somewhat surprising.[7] All four dissenting Justices were well aware that even BATF regarded the Contender parts as not being an NFA firearm if two receivers were present, one for the pistol and one for the rifle. Yet this went unmentioned as the four opined that any parts that could be assembled into a short-barreled rifle are such a rifle.

The decision is a tremendous victory in several respects. Law-abiding firearm owners won,[8] and BATF lost, the first case the Supreme Court has ever decided on the classification of a specific firearm. This sends a strong message to BATF not to classify anything and everything as an NFA firearm.

More importantly, the Court applied the rule of lenity and rejected the rule of deference in construction of the National Firearms Act, and the same rule will apply to Title I of the Gun Control Act. Lower courts have deferred to BATF on matters under these statutes,[9] a practice which should now end. This case should help defeat BATF's attempt to manufacture an ambiguity and extend the scope of the Unsoeld amendment relating to the assembly of rifles from imported parts.

The Second Amendment was not mentioned in any opinion. However, the plurality fashioned a concept of a legitimate purpose, which could carry over into cases involving bans on possession by law-abiding persons. Certainly, O'Conner, who grew up as a firearms owner on a ranch in Arizona, will remind the other justices of the legitimacy of gun ownership. Souter's justification of reliance on legislative history--a key to understanding the Second and Fourteenth Amendments-- will bolster the literal, textual reading of the Second Amendment suggested by Rehnquist in Verdugo-Urquidez. Thomas has become a Scalia ally on adherence to the text. This is an asset in any firearms case, because often the statutes are judicially stretched because of such policies as set forth by Stevens.

The plurality stated that it granted certiorari to resolve a conflict between the Federal Circuit and the Seventh Circuit. Such a "conflict" was hardly extensive, and the cases involved different products. Perhaps the court granted certiorari just because the government lost, or perhaps the Court wished to consider a case involving legitimate firearms use for once, instead of criminal possession or misuse. The bottom line is that the Court took, and favorably decided, a case involving firearms and law-abiding persons.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other References

Second Circuit Court of Appeals Decision (1991)
US vs Thompson Center

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/thompson_center_v_us.txt

Supreme Court Decision (1992)
US vs Thompson Center

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=504&page=512

11th Circuit Court of Appeals (1999)
US vs Kent

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=11th&navby=case&no=978425man
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Potnetial California Exception (Beware)

http://www.gunlaw.com/contraband.phtml

Basically, if you live in a state that requires you to register pistols, you probably need to register your frames as pistols before you convert them.
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General Guide to Class 3 Weapons - by James O. Bardwell
(search for "thompson center")

http://www.impactsites2000.com/site3/Class3info.htm

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American Handgunner
"When is a rifle a sixgun?"
by John Taffin

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_169_28/ai_114475581

Offline Graybeard

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2005, 11:50:27 AM »
Problem is the Supreme Court Case had absolutely NOTHING to do with the legality of converting a rifle into a handgun. It addressed ONLY the issue of whether it was legal for TC to sell kits containing a rifle barrel, buttstock and fore end to convert handguns to rifles. That is the one and only issue the case decided. I've read the case thoroughly and there is nothing else there.

There has never been a single case decided by the courts to this date that relate to taking a TC Rifle and making it into a handgun. Until there is the issue is in limbo and anyone who wishes can make a case for their position on it.

BUT Federal law makes it illegal to turn a rifle into a handgun. The issue of TCs just hasn't been addressed by the courts in this regard.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline iiibbb

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2005, 12:08:29 PM »
Hopefully Str8shooter will post in here, but he posted this in another thread.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=371506&highlight=#371506

If what you say is true Graybeard, it seems incredibly bizzare to me... naturally I'm not a lawyer, but I can't imagine that the courts would decide against someone given that the only difference between the rifle and pistol frames is a S/N.  If it is as you say, T/C should be constructing the frames so that it is only a one-way swap (it could easily be done by having slight differences between the frames... kind-of like a key)

If I'm wrong I wish a lawyer would chime in.

Offline Keith L

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2005, 12:39:19 PM »
I'm no lawyer, but if you are looking for logic from the Government and our lawmakers then you are going to be dissapointed.  Perhaps I am jaded but I assume the laws and their interpretation will make no sense and am amazed when they do.

Life is to short to spend time in the hoosgow over a technicality.  All my frames started life as a pistol.  That makes me feel fairly safe.
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Offline Tacoma

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2005, 12:57:52 PM »
Mass also does not allow you to put a pistol barrel on a  T/C origionally sold as a Carbine.  :(

Offline wallynut

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2005, 02:21:24 PM »
"Mass also does not allow you to put a pistol barrel on a T/C origionally sold as a Carbine"

Another reason besides John Kerry not to live in Mass.
aim small, miss small

Offline str8shooter48

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2005, 02:38:35 PM »
I called the BATF today concerning the same question about my Encore. I explained to the person at the BATF that I purchased my Encore as a muzzleloading rifle. Then asked if it was legal to use that rifle frame with a pistol grip and a pistol barrel.

His answer was yes. As long as I registered the frame and pistol barrel on my New York State pistol permit. Then use it in the proper configuration. Pistol grips with pistol length barrels, and legal length rifle barrels with the rifle buttstock. Thats the answer I got about 4 hours ago.

Take it for what its worth but this is the answer I got from the BATF this afternoon. Its just a phone call away. Give your local BATF office a call. See what they give you for an answer. If a few more get the same answer. That might help clarify the dillema.

The only reason I gave them a call is I want to buy a new frame to mount a rifle barrel with plans on buying a pistol barrel somewhere down the road.

I called the Pistol Permit Office in my county last year and they said there would be now problem just bring in the sales with the serial# and what caliber barrel you plan to register it with. If I get a chance tommorow I'll give them a call again and see if they still give me the same answer.

Offline str8shooter48

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2005, 11:03:08 AM »
Quote from: str8shooter48
I called the BATF today concerning the same question about my Encore. I explained to the person at the BATF that I purchased my Encore as a muzzleloading rifle. Then asked if it was legal to use that rifle frame with a pistol grip and a pistol barrel.

His answer was yes. As long as I registered the frame and pistol barrel on my New York State pistol permit. Then use it in the proper configuration. Pistol grips with pistol length barrels, and legal length rifle barrels with the rifle buttstock. Thats the answer I got about 4 hours ago.

Take it for what its worth but this is the answer I got from the BATF this afternoon. Its just a phone call away. Give your local BATF office a call. See what they give you for an answer. If a few more get the same answer. That might help clarify the dillema.

The only reason I gave them a call is I want to buy a new frame to mount a rifle barrel with plans on buying a pistol barrel somewhere down the road.

I called the Pistol Permit Office in my county last year and they said there would be now problem just bring in the sales with the serial# and what caliber barrel you plan to register it with. If I get a chance tommorow I'll give them a call again and see if they still give me the same answer.


Today I called the Pistol Permit office in Niagara Co. The answer I got from them was it is perfectly legal to convert my rifle frame to a pistol. The only thing I must do is register the frame serial number and caliber of choice on my permit before the conversion begins.

I also called the New York State Police Pistol permit division in Albany. They said it was a legal conversion too. With the same conditions. The frame must be registered on my permit before the conversion can be used.

BATF says its legal.
New York State Police. says its legal.
Niagara Co. Pistol Permit Office. says it legal.

Guess it must be legal the BATF, New York State Police and Counties all agree.

Only thing I can recommend get on the phone and get the answers from the Feds, State and local governments where you live.

It was worth the effort. :grin:

Offline iiibbb

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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2005, 11:38:33 AM »
Thanks str8.

Offline Greybeard

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2005, 06:14:54 PM »
Don't believe everything you're told by telephone by a civil servant. Get it in writing.


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Offline dakotashooter2

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2005, 08:19:09 AM »
I think at some point the court will end up reviewing if there is any physical difference between a rifle and pistol frame. The only conclusion they can reach is that there is not. I can't believe the court can justify the simple registration as a determing factor. At that point they will have to look at the intent of the original law and whether a TC reasonably violates that intent. Should having all the parts to make something illegal constitute have an illegal device? BATF regulations are not even uniform on this. There are many gun parts that are legal to possess but cannot be assembled on a weapon. Doesn't/shouldn't  the TC fall in this same category??  Every woman has the parts to be a prostitute. Should we throw them all in jail????
Just another worthless opinion!!

Offline Keith L

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2005, 11:38:36 AM »
Quote
Every woman has the parts to be a prostitute. Should we throw them all in jail????


I hope no one from Washington DC is reading this.  I am afraid they may see the wisdom of this argument.  I am to old and further more have no inclination to change my lifestyle now...
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Offline str8shooter48

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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2005, 12:25:13 PM »
Legal or not I've come to a final conclusion.

I bought my Encore as a Mag 209x50 "rifle" and as a rifle its going to stay.

If I want to hunt with a pistol I'll use my old Contender that I've been happy with for the past 15 years. The 35 Rem kills a deer as dead as a .308 or 30-06. With only moderate recoil.

I bought a heavy barrel 223 for the Encore frame and that will probrably be the last money I spent on it. I'm not real big on the whole changing barrels thing. I guess I'll live with changing between these two barrels a couple times a year.

The next guns I buy from varmint to big game I'll turn to Remington, Savage,Browning etc. One caliber, one rifle no B.S.

Offline hunter58

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Reply From Thompson/Center
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2005, 06:14:32 AM »
Thompson / Center Arms Co. went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court
 to establish the lawfulness of the Contender pistol and carbine (including the carbine kit)  and won. The Supreme Court opinion also establishes the legality of the Encore system, which has similar interchangeable parts.
   With these systems, a receiver may be assembled either with a pistol grip and pistol barrel, or with the shoulder stock and rifle barrel (minimum length of 16 inches).
A barrel under 16 inches in length must NEVER be assembled onto the receiver when the shoulder stock is attached! Within that parameter, the consumer may use the parts to make a pistol or carbine, and may change the configuration at will.
   In 1988, Thompson / Center Arms Co. filed suit against the United States alleging that the pistol and carbine kit as used above, do not constitute a rifle with a barrel of less than 16 inches in length, a weapon made from a rifle with overall length less than 26 inches, or a restricted “firearm” as otherwise defined by the National Firearms Act. The U.S. Court of appeals for the Federal Circuit and the U.S. Supreme Court agreed with Thompson / Center Arms. Their opinions are cited as United States  v. Thompson / Center Arms Co, 504 U.S 505 (1992) affirming 924F.2d 1041 (Fed. Cir. 1991).
Thus, the sale, possession, and the use of the Contender or Encore pistol and carbine as described above are fully in accord with federal law. The use of these products in all of the states is likewise lawful, except that certain restrictions may apply in California.

This was from Tom Pancurak
Thompson/Center Arms.

Offline iiibbb

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2005, 11:00:39 AM »
Stephen Halbrook, the lawyer who represented TC in the Supreme Court case, was really accomodating and sent me the same thing.

I don't know what else to say. Believe whatever you want.

Offline mjbgalt

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2005, 11:18:10 AM »
i dont see the big deal. not like someone is going to shoot up a sunday school with a single shot carbine. lol

plus, there are other kits available for guns like browning's and beretta's .22 pistols that you can order with a carbine kit, so i COULD leave the carbine barrel on it and the pistol grip and same problem.

i think our courts need to forget this BS and do something new. like ACTUALLY punish those who use guns in crimes and leave the rest of is alone until we do something wrong. like committing a crime, not ACCIDENTALLY leaving our contenders in the wrong configuraions when they're stored in the closet.

and besides, isnt the legislature supposed to reflect the will of the people? well what i want is to be able to do whatever the hell i want with MY property in MY house or MY range.

think that would go over well?

-Matt :)  :)
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline Pinkerton

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« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2005, 03:02:13 PM »
I really feel like this question pops up way to often. If it continues to be questioned, some anti-gun lawyer who doesn't know a contender from a sawed-off is gonna key in on the issue.

It makes perfect sense in a state that requires handguns to be registered, to configure your contender/encore as a handgun and register it that way, can't see what they could get you for on that one. Make sure you keep the buttstock off if you got a barrel shorter than 16" and just keep doing what your doing. And if at all possible, live in a state where common sense rules most of the time (those places are getting fewer and fewer)

The more the question comes up the more likely it will get put under the microscope by the beurocrates and that's something nobody needs.

Offline dakotashooter2

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« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2005, 10:47:28 PM »
"i dont see the big deal. not like someone is going to shoot up a sunday school with a single shot carbine. lol "

That is close to the point one of the supreme court judges' made during the case.

I am not so sure the court has completely resolved this issue though.

I believe the case dealt with the carbine conversion kit, in other words converting from a pistol to a carbine. I'm not sure we have a law that prohibits that. What the lawsuit addressed the legality of having all the parts available to build a short barreled rifle (under 16") and not so much the legality of the conversion itself.  We do however have a law that prohibits making a pistol from a rifle (without proper permits). I once thought all was OK but as my understanding of legal matters increases I'm not so sure the courts decision addresses that issue.
Just another worthless opinion!!

Offline Graybeard

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Legality of Converting Pistol-Rifle-Pistol
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2005, 06:28:25 AM »
The Supreme Court case DID NOT address the issue of putting a short barrel on a frame that started life as a rifle and making it into a handgun. It addressed it the other way really.

Do as you wish. Someone's gotta be the test case some day. But it ain't gonna be me.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!