Author Topic: modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/cannon??  (Read 1290 times)

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Offline mortarnoobie

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/cannon??
« on: April 29, 2005, 07:18:01 PM »
I've read about people using the large oxygen cylinders as bowling ball mortars, so i got to thinking, could you use a fire extinguisher with one end cut off as a mortar for a smaller object?  I have no idea what PSI extinguishers are filled to.  anyone have any info or input?
Kansas City area;  KS

Offline GGaskill

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/can
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2005, 07:31:15 PM »
Might work with tennis balls or other low density projectiles but I would stay away from them myself.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/cannon??
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2005, 02:33:51 AM »
Quote from: mortarnoobie
I've read about people using the large oxygen cylinders as bowling ball mortars, so i got to thinking, could you use a fire extinguisher with one end cut off as a mortar for a smaller object?  I have no idea what PSI extinguishers are filled to.  anyone have any info or input?


Good question.  

I assume you're referring to the larger CO2 types.  

There is a code stamped in each that folks in the profession would be able to interpret.

O2 cylinders are filled to many THOUSANDS of PSI and are tested another thousand PSI above that.  Don't have a clue to the working pressure of a CO2 cyl.

Next problem is getting one.  If they're tested and fail, they must be punctured so they won't ever be used for a presure tank again.  

Hmmmmm.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/can
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2005, 02:38:06 AM »
And of course there is the very important question of finding the right ammo.  There MIGHT just be a winning combination!

Good change of name.  There will come a time when you'll need to change it again.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline mortarnoobie

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/can
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2005, 05:00:11 AM »
thanks for the comments.  garage sale time is coming around... who knows, maybe i'll spot one somewhere (a small CO2 cylinder that is).  i read a few pages on fire extinguishers online and saw things like 300 psi.  if this is at all accurate or related to what i'm looking for, it probably wouldn't be a good idea to use...

EDIT: if i were to purchase a co2 cylinder, would 1800 service psi and 3000 test psi be a safe pressure rating?  this is under the assumption that i can somehow find out the inner diameter of the cylinder and find a somewhat readily available ammo for it.
Kansas City area;  KS

Offline CAV Trooper

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/can
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2005, 08:21:18 AM »
The higher the pressure rating, the stronger the steel. Go with the best you can find.
“Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein

Offline Cat Whisperer

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/can
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2005, 08:35:01 AM »
Quote from: mortarnoobie
... if i were to purchase a co2 cylinder, would 1800 service psi and 3000 test psi be a safe pressure rating?  this is under the assumption that i can somehow find out the inner diameter of the cylinder and find a somewhat readily available ammo for it.


Two ways of getting something that is reasonable safe to use:

1. Engineer it using appropriate strength of materials and applied math.

2. Look at what has been successfully used over a period of time before and beef it up in your copy.

I don't know many folks that are qualified at the engineering level as mechanical or metalurgical designers.  But there are plenty of folks that will assist at the second level.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline GGaskill

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/can
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2005, 09:32:19 AM »
The primary problem with designing BP artillery on paper is that we don't have any valid pressure measurements (and few velocity measurements) to guide our choices.

An example:  a bowling ball has a cross-sectional area of about 58 sq in.  If we apply a pressure of 1000 psi to it, the ball will see a force of 58,000 lbs.  From F=ma, the acceleration of the ball will be 116,000 ft/sec squared--a whole bunch.  But the pressure is inversely related to the volume and as the ball moves along the bore, the pressure will drop.  Assume, for easy calculation, the volume of the powder charge is 5.8 cu in; as the ball moves its first inch down the barrel, the volume goes from 5.8 cu in to 5.8 + 58 cu in (63.8 cu in) and the pressure must fall from 1000 psi to only 90 psi.  The force on the ball is now 5220 lbs.  After the next inch of travel, the pressure is down to 47 psi and the force to 2760 lbs.  This goes on until the ball exits the barrel.  (You can see why the barrels of mortars didn't have to be very long to be effective.)

The above analysis is extremely simplified (a proper analysis would use calculus and account for other factors) but you should be able to see the basic idea.  In theory, one could work backward from velocity measurements and get the pressure but even that would be based on a bunch of simplifying assumptions.

So from a practical viewpoint, building and proof firing guns is the best way.  By using the original designs and modern materials, we automatically get an enhanced safety factor.  The risk increases when we strike off into new designs or take short cuts trying to use available materials to simplify building.  We should keep in mind when building artillery that our pieces are likely to come into the hands of others at some point and they will not necessarily know what we know or use them with the reserve that we use them.  So there should be enough safety factor included in the design to prevent accidents in the future.
GG
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Offline HotGuns

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/can
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2005, 09:48:36 AM »
The large O2 bottles arent large enough.

Heres a thread on it...

I think the only thing big enough for bowling balls is an Argon bottle...

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=60997&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Offline mortarnoobie

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/can
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2005, 06:31:08 PM »
thanks for the tip about the bowling ball dia., but i was just using this as an example.  i wouldn't want something that large.  i want to build one similar, but with a little cylinder instead.  5 lb or so probably.  i would have to look around a bit for the best dimensioned bottle (tall and thin is what i think i'd go for... after reading around, it sounds like a decently longer barrel helps get the extra distance, accuracy, and efficiency)

btw... does anyone know if the inside surface of such tanks are smooth, or would it need to be turned to get a usable bore?
Kansas City area;  KS

Offline Double D

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/can
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2005, 07:14:56 PM »
I think what the group is trying to politely tell you is forget the small fire  extinguisher tanks as they are unsuitable.  If they were suitable you would see a lot of talk of it on the board.

If you insist on a smaller a pressure tank tank just get a small O2 bottle.

But for the investment in time and money for a first gun you are probably better of buying a ready made gun from someone like Cannon-Mania

Get one of their guns and learn more about how cannons are made and operate.  

Cannons are really not that hard to make or even to find, finding ammo for them is the hard part.

Offline MGD

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/can
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2005, 01:21:58 PM »
This is my first posting so be gentle.I would try a small O2 tank like they use on ambulance's its about 4 inches in diameter and a lantern propane cylinder just fits for the projectile.My tank is about 18 inches long and I shoot it with 3/4 ounce 2f it really launches those tanks out there about 250 yards at an 80 degree angle hope this helps play safe.
Mike

Offline Cat Whisperer

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/can
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2005, 03:41:47 PM »
MGD -

Of course we'll be gentle!  Truthfull, but gentle.

WELCOME to the board, sounds like a reasonable charge for the bore diameter and from the range looks like you're getting about all one could squeeze out of that little dab of powder.

A look at the working pressure of the tank will give a good idea of the strength.  Also the shape of the powder chamber (thickness of the walls in the area where the pressure peak will occur) is good to note as well.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline mortarnoobie

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/can
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2005, 05:08:56 PM »
no worries about it now... i'm pretty sure i'm purchasing a hex barrel thats ready for mounting from powderkeg soon  :grin:   so i can forget about fire extinguishers, o2 bottles, pipes, welding, and everything else that could result in a pipe bomb.
Kansas City area;  KS

Offline Cat Whisperer

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modified fire extinguisher for a mortar/can
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2005, 12:50:42 AM »
Quote from: mortarnoobie
no worries about it now... i'm pretty sure i'm purchasing a hex barrel thats ready for mounting from powderkeg soon  :grin:   so i can forget about fire extinguishers, o2 bottles, pipes, welding, and everything else that could result in a pipe bomb.


On the the other hand, mortarnoobie, MGD has one where those are the very issues he deals with every time he lights the fuse.

You've raised a novel way of making a tube (out of the mainstream, as are bowling ball mortars)  and so from a very practical standpoint an examination of the principles involved is only rational.

O2 cylinders run at a very high pressure - the big ones in the 4000 psi and higher (and are tested at a higher pressure than working pressure).  That makes them suitable for our purposes - as a continuous working pressure of one value will withstand the occasional pressure spike very well.  Again, I know but just a little about the engineering and metalurgy involved, but like the rest of us, I can certainly compare strengths by observing others repeated successes or failures.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
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