Author Topic: So, is the Handi strong enough for full .45-70 loads? (Read 2307 times)

jason280 · « **on:** April 30, 2005, 07:14:56 AM »

I've been looking at some of the heavy loads for the .45-70, including Garrett Cartridges and Buffalo Bore, and they all state they are safe for the NEF Handi Rifle. However, I was on the phone yesterday with Sierra, and the tech stated that the action wasn't strong enough for full loads. So, can the NEF handle c.u.p levels of 35-40k?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** April 30, 2005, 07:38:06 AM »

There are some here that have shot the low level 3 Ruger #1 loads in theirs with no problems. Each gun is different and load developement needs to be worked up slowly. As far as those factory loads, they would be fine as long as your shoulder can handle them. I've shot the PMC Silver ammo in mine which is only recommended for modern firearms, shoots a 350gr Sierra bullet at 2000+fps. I would guess that the Sierra tech you talked to really doesn't have a clue what a Handi can handle and just gave you a CYA answer.

mt3030 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 30, 2005, 08:02:36 AM »

I know it was a CYA answer. The Handi, not the old Topper, will handle anything your shoulder will tolerate. There was a long technical discussion on this subject on the old H&R forum. Maybe someone has a copy of that post.
Wally

handirifle · « **Reply #3 on:** April 30, 2005, 08:47:02 AM »

Jason
NEF advertises their rifles are capable of handling the Marlin lever action levels of 45-70 loads. I personally would not try the Ruger #1 levels. The Ruger is a much stronger action.

Once you try some hefty Marlin level loads you may not desire more anyway. :eek:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 30, 2005, 10:04:43 AM »

Even the low level Ruger loads are within the Handi's capability...the problem is...a-lot of guys think the gun is suitable for the much hotter loads approching 458 Magnum loads...and it is very questionable if the Handi can maintain it's mechanical integraty for a long duration of such loads...the SB-2 frames are strong enough to withstand the heaviest of 270 and 30-06 loads which is 60,000+ psi... but what comes into the argument is the much larger case and the amount of backthrust applied on the hinge pin and receiver face...many of the current loading manuals will show you similar pressures for the low Ruger loads...and the High Marlin loads...and something in between...

The best approach is to check as many reloading manuals and talk to MANY different bullet and powder manufactures technicians as you can...then you can deceide what data you want to use...as already been said...getting a CYA answer is just that...because of the various 45-70 actions being used...old and new..

Mac

slayer · « **Reply #5 on:** April 30, 2005, 12:22:51 PM »

With this all being said, is my action different in anyway on my .45/70 BC than a regular handi rifle? Are they made for stronger loads? Thanks-Jack.

handirifle · « **Reply #6 on:** April 30, 2005, 12:37:31 PM »

Slayer,
NO. All Sb-2 frames are the same.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** April 30, 2005, 12:41:03 PM »

Jack, it's the same SB2 frame, no difference. The BC weighs a bit more, that's the only plus, but the steel butt plate is a big negative when it comes to heavy loads. I put a piece of pipe that I filled with lead in the stock bolt hole to add 2¼lbs of weight to my 45-70s or my 45-120 BC to reduce recoil at the bench. I also have a slip on Limbsaver recoil pad to put over the BC's steel butt plate to further reduce felt recoil from the bench. Offhand, I don't use the weight, just a heavy shirt. :wink:

poncaguy · « **Reply #8 on:** April 30, 2005, 12:50:54 PM »

What size slip over Simms?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** April 30, 2005, 01:13:23 PM »

The small fits, although not well because of the cup in the butt. For bench work it works fine. The small also fits the Handi butts also, I put it on my scoped 45-70 for some hot load work using H4198 and Nosler partitions at as close to 2300fps as I can get to shoot accurately.

JPH45 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 30, 2005, 01:49:31 PM »

Here is the simple answer.....NEF has chambered the Handi in 450 Marlin, a 42,000 psi cartridge, NEF says it'll do that much.

tanoose · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2005, 05:17:53 AM »

Jason the 35000-40000 psi loads you are asking about are not only safe but they are also NOT full loads. Unless i am mistaken full loads can only be handloaded as buffalobore garret and grizzly load so the 45/70 can be used in the marlin 1895. Now the ruger single shot can handle full loads and i dont beleive anyone makes loads Just for the ruger. I am curious as most ask about whiuch rifle can handle which pressures --- What about the shell itself wouldn't there be a max pressure for the shell regardless of the rifle it is used in?

jason280 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2005, 07:56:09 AM »

That was kind of my question. Garrett Cartridges state all of their loads are safe in a NEF Handi Rifle, and most of their loads are pretty stout. However, I really don't plan on shooting any hot loads through my gun. I really want to stick with 405gr hard cast lead bullets at around 15-1600 fps.

tanoose · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2005, 08:15:57 AM »

I have never used them but i am hearing alot of good things about grizzly ammunition Check them out at www.grizzlycartridge.com Stout loads at a fair price. Good luck Tanoose

handirifle · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2005, 06:03:36 PM »

Garrett used to have only one load that was NOT to be used in the Handi, Marlins only, but not sure what the issue was. I'm pretty sure it was not a pressure issue though. I'm sure an email to them will answer that.

I have pushed 400gr Speer bullets to 2000 from my BC. While they are near top loads, I'd NOT want to shoot too many of them that is for sure.

One thing for sure, that 400gr speer makes a LOUD clang when it hits a metal plate at 300yds. :grin:

tanoose · « **Reply #15 on:** May 02, 2005, 01:37:27 PM »

I was wrong , conley has loads just for the ruger #1 you can check them out at www.cpcartridge.com Later Tanoose

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** May 02, 2005, 01:55:06 PM »

I'd bet even most of those loads would be safe for the Handi if worked up in a handload.....As has been stated, the Handi will handle the 450 Marlin loads....400gr @ 2000+fps......whether you'd like to shoot them is another issue all together!! :eek:

http://www.cpcartridge.com/45-70ruger-P.htm

mr.frosty · « **Reply #17 on:** May 02, 2005, 02:01:25 PM »

Quote from: handirifle

Garrett used to have only one load that was NOT to be used in the Handi, Marlins only, but not sure what the issue was. I'm pretty sure it was not a pressure issue though. I'm sure an email to them will answer that.

I have pushed 400gr Speer bullets to 2000 from my BC. While they are near top loads, I'd NOT want to shoot too many of them that is for sure.

One thing for sure, that 400gr speer makes a LOUD clang when it hits a metal plate at 300yds. :grin:

I think you may be referring to their 540 gr. Hammerhead.

James B · « **Reply #18 on:** May 02, 2005, 06:51:16 PM »

Go to the Garret site. They list their loads and what they are safe to use in. They list the H&R as safe with almost all their loads. You could check the Corbon site as well. Pressure wise the Handi will handle all of their loads. However there may be a couple that are to long. I have shot the low level Ruger (starting loads) in both the BC and the Handi rifle. I am speaking of the starting Ruger loads in the NEW LYMAN MANUAL.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 02, 2005, 07:48:12 PM »

Let me say this for anyone wanting to load hot for the 45-70...while there is much debate on just how strong the SB-2 receiver is. and how hot you can load up to in the 45-70 case.. ALWAYS reduce your starting loads by at least 5%...and work up slowly in small increments...it is better to err on the safe side than to get in a hurry and become reckless in your handloading by trying to jump in at the max charges...or... anytime your going above published loads...and... especially if you are extrapolating data for a different bullet/primer/case/powder of the same value or close to what's published...... Substituting one component for another can spell disaster if your not careful...I'm not saying anyone here is...but...please... just use a common sense approach...and.... always mark your loads so you know what exactly your shooting...you wouldn't want to mix them up and have or cause a accident...

Mac

BnSC · « **Reply #20 on:** May 03, 2005, 02:08:57 AM »

interesting discussion!

I used to shoot handloaded level 2 loads in a previous SB2 that I owned. I was getting the loads from a friend that had the identical setup that I had. However, at the beginning of a deer season I had run out of his handloads and he didn't have time to load me any more.. So, I purchased one box of factory loads. At the distances I shoot deer w/ the 45-70, the factory load was still extremely devastating on the deer and a lot less devastating to me

.. since then I have stuck w/ the level 1 loads for deer hunting..

Joel · « **Reply #21 on:** May 03, 2005, 05:38:27 AM »

The hottest I've loaded my Handi (an early 1990's SB-2) was to 2400 fps with 300 gr Hornady's; which was a Ruger load listed in Lyman's #46. Pressure was around 35,200 CUP according to Lyman. Rifle had no problem, but then I only fired 5 of the danged things. Recoil was way too much.....scope kept trying to take a ding out of my nose/forehead. I shoot the 400 gr Speer at 1750 fps out of it now. Been using that for the last 3 years with no problems.

glock29 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 04, 2005, 06:32:42 AM »

I use ONLY level 3 loads in my Handi-rifle.
405 gr at approx 2100 fps, 350 gr at 2300 fps, and 300gr at 2550+fps.
I use the level 3 H4198 loads straight out of the Hodgdon manual.
I have had no problems with ANY signs of excessive pressure.
Recoil is interestingly a tad worse than my CZ550 Safari Magnum 458 Lott, but the CZ weighs about 2.5 lbs more than the Handi.

DPRinks · « **Reply #23 on:** May 04, 2005, 05:37:43 PM »

29;
I can tell right off hand you are not about 65, do not have bad rotator cuff damage and really enjoy getting your back and neck redone at the chiropractor's
I have shot a 515gr at 1620 fps in my handirifle, with recoil pad and have decided 1400 fps is plenty.
A 405gr at 1600fps is fine , but that is the limit for ME, not the rifle.
WOWO, :lol:

poncaguy · « **Reply #24 on:** May 05, 2005, 01:40:12 AM »

I went to the chiropractor yesterday for my shoulder and still waiting for my Handi 45-70 from Wally World..............I must be nuts! Will be 64 tomorrow, hope it comes today or tomorrow so I can celebrate with it.

hellacatcher · « **Reply #25 on:** May 05, 2005, 03:40:07 AM »

PONCAGUY----- happy birthday

poncaguy · « **Reply #26 on:** May 05, 2005, 03:49:31 AM »

Thank ya hellcatcher!

glock29 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 06, 2005, 10:04:03 AM »

My point was basically that the Handi-Rifle can take more than most people's shoulders will !!

I admit, I am NOT in the least recoil-sensitive.
I fire off full-house 500 grain 458 Lott in my CZ Safari for FUN !
Most others that try it don't think it is fun, but it sure is for me by watching their reaction after they try it !
It's a RIOT....they usually don't ask to fire a second shot...yuk,yuk, yuk !

hvacman · « **Reply #28 on:** June 23, 2005, 05:06:26 PM »

I must have talked to a different tech at Sierra last fall. The one I talked to said that the handi would handle anything my shoulder could take. He's right so far. I have a 45/70 barrel for my superlight and shoot low to mid level 3 loads with no sign of problems yet. The recoil is brutal and 20 rounds will leave your shoulder sore and your arm tingling but it shoots very well.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #29 on:** June 23, 2005, 05:45:16 PM »

The SB2 frame on a 45-70 will handle way more than most shooters want to even consider. I'm shooting 300gr Nosler partitions at 2400fps currently and could go more if I wanted to, there's no indication whatsoever that I'm getting close to a problem....don't need anymore though, a 1 hole 3 shot group at 100yds is good nuff for me and any critter that crosses my path, for that matter!!! There are those here that shoot much heavier loads than that with no problems, other than being somewhat masochistic!!! :eek:

Tim