So, is the Handi strong enough for full .45-70 loads?

[Mac11700]

I'm old fashioned and plan on living a long time just that way.  I shoot a 92FS and 96FS as well as a few cheaper pistols and other revolvers. None of which are made of plastic.

 
Ok...I give...what's a 92fs and a 96fs???Are these pistols??  
 

I believe you will find NEF will instruct you to not load past the Lever Action standard near 28,800.  

 
 
 
Funny ...I just looked thru my owners manual...and for the life of me...cannot find any reference specifically on the 45-70 loads...where might it be???Furthermore...if you actually do a search on this here you will find may threads and links pointing you to Buffalo Bore Cartridges...and Garretts Cartridges...Connoley's Ammo...and Superior Ammunition..that all have over trapdoor loads testesd safe for the NEF rifles..
 

No matter how much we like our NEFs, the Ruger #1 modified falling block design is infinitely superior to the cast/cut NEF.  The consistency and QC at NEF isn't very good. Most of the time you will get your money's worth but they put out some disappointing stuff too.

 
Well...I've only seen 1 person who claims to load up his 45-70 Handi on this site to equal hot Ruger #1 loads...so I think it would be safe to tell you ..."most of us already know this my friend"...
 

NEF will stand by the .450 Marlin and it loads to something like 43,500.

 
 
Kinda contradicting yourself here a bit aren't you...if those type pressures are safe in the 450 Marlin...then guess what...THEY ARE SAFE IN THE 45-70........sheeeeese...
 

If you really want to push 45-70 performance past the standard Handi, load to max LA 45-70 and buy a target model and have it cut to 26" or 28" and re-crowned.

 
Some here have done just this...but again...what are you defining as a standard Handi 45-70 load...it's usually defined as Level 1...(trapdoor loads)...Level 2...(Marlin 1895 loads)...Level 3...(Ruger #1&3 and bolt guns)...... and while the longer barrel will give you a velocity advantage...it is known..that it isn't no-where near the advantage of some of the other centerfire cartridges will give you...more like 20-30 fps...
 
If you have a older H&R 45-70...this would be pre-NEF takeover...then yes...stick to trapdoor loads...but the new SB-2 receivers are pretty darn strong and will hold up to quite a-bit...and can and have taken up to the lower Ruger loads with out incident...excepting to the shoulder of the person pulling the trigger...and even then...with the proper shooting techniques...a proper recoil pad...a little extra weight in the stock...and a padded cheek piece...it isn't unmanageable to shoot the heavy loads thru it...but you have to know how to shoot a heavy recoiling rifle...if you don't then you certainly in for a unpleasant experience...

Mac

[45LCshoooter]

Dittos Mac,

I started out with a 45-70 several years ago after falling in love with everything 45. Dealer said it was a bruiser but he must shoot .22's: factory ammo felt no worse than my .303 carbine. I had fun with handloads and bought a #3. The only loads that aren't for the both of them is my bowling ball loads. That consists of a Lyman .451 450gn "volunteer" bullet patched only at the base (I am considering experimenting with gas checks) seated way out over ludicrous amounts of 3031. I will shoot up the rest and work this back up with Re7, but not in my handi.

[Mac11700]

I'm old fashioned and plan on living a long time just that way.  I shoot a 92FS and 96FS as well as a few cheaper pistols and other revolvers. None of which are made of plastic.

 
Ok...I give...what's a 92fs and a 96fs???Are these pistols??  

you amuse me.

Good...because most of your statements are down right amusing as well

I believe you will find NEF will instruct you to not load past the Lever Action standard near 28,800.  

 
 
 
Funny ...I just looked thru my owners manual...and for the life of me...cannot find any reference specifically on the 45-70 loads...where might it be???Furthermore...if you actually do a search on this here you will find may threads and links pointing you to Buffalo Bore Cartridges...and Garretts Cartridges...Connoley's Ammo...and Superior Ammunition..that all have over trapdoor loads testesd safe for the neff rifles..

Call the factory.

I have...usually on a weekly basis...

No matter how much we like our NEFs, the Ruger #1 modified falling block design is infinitely superior to the cast/cut NEF.  The consistency and QC at NEF isn't very good. Most of the time you will get your money's worth but they put out some disappointing stuff too.

 
Well...I've only seen 1 person who claims to load up his 45-70 hand on this site to equal hot roger #1 loads...so I think it would be safe to tell you ..."most of us already know this my friend"...

Most perhaps. I don't know if you have an children or not. But, suppose you do and that you weren't around to advize them with the benefit of your opinions and experience. Wouldn't you think it wise to be sure they knew better?

Most of us here will tell someone when they are handloading to dangerous levels...just like when we tell you the same same about your 3600 fps 280 load

NEF will stand by the .450 Marlin and it loads to something like 43,500.

 
 
Kinda contradicting yourself here a bit aren't you...if those type pressures are safe in the 450 Marlin...then guess what...THEY ARE SAFE IN THE 45-70........sheeeeese...

Not really, The brass is designed differently. As much as to guard against mischamberings as anything but thickening them as they did where they did was for good reasons. Test it for your selves, do a case volume test or call the factories.

Yes...really...back thrust has a important part in how hot you can load a Handi rifle...and they went with the belt to imply magnum velocities to the untrained  public.There has been enough research and development for the 45-70 that to even attempt an argument here is not only foolish but stupid..

If you really want to push 45-70 performance past the standard Handi, load to max LA 45-70 and buy a target model and have it cut to 26" or 28" and re-crowned.

 
Some here have done just this...but again...what are you defining as a standard Handi 45-70 load...it's usually defined as Level 1...(trapdoor loads)...Level 2...(Marlin 1895 loads)...Level 3...(Ruger #1&3 and bolt guns)...... and while the longer barrel will give you a velocity advantage...it is known..that it isn't no-where near the advantage of some of the other centerfire cartridges will give you...more like 20-30 fps...
 
If you have a older H&R 45-70...this would be pre-NEF takeover...then yes...stick to trapdoor loads...but the new SB-2 receivers are pretty darn strong and will hold up to quite a-bit...and can and have taken up to the lower Ruger loads with out incident...excepting to the shoulder of the person pulling the trigger...and even then...with the proper shooting techniques...a proper recoil pad...a little extra weight in the stock...and a padded cheek piece...it isn't unmanageable to shoot the heavy loads thru it...but you have to know how to shoot a heavy recoiling rifle...if you don't then you certainly in for a unpleasant experience...

Mac

You know I was taught to turn to the other cheek. I will continue to do just that for as long as I can withstand the sarcasm. You missed the 28,800... it is actually 28,000.  

I really don't understand your point on this one...but...if you continue to leave yourself open to sarcasm and ridicule on you stated velocites with the 280 Handi...then fully expect people to continue in this regards...

[FirstFreedom]

Even if it is, I don't own a thick enough winter jacket to make me want to try a buffalo bore load in a handi-rifle.  1895 loads are as much or more than I want to be punished by a rifle that light.  My retinas are pretty tightly held on at present, and I wannt keep it that way.  

[quickdtoo]

Ridel,

I think the following comments on your 280 rem "claimed" velocity from  members here that are well respected and are extremely credible tells us that your opinion is not worth the time it takes to read it and your credibility leaves a lot to be desired!

Tim

Somebody is doubling up on the 'crack pipe'. Even if you could.....why?

I don't believe it. That's a 3000fps load and adding just 100fps to that is a lot. Adding 600fps is not believable.

I have to agree with the other guys. This has to be a bad cronograph reading or an outright lie. I am a long-time 280 shooter and reloader, it is one of my favorite cartridges, but this is not possible with a 280 case. This guy should be embarrassed. :oops:

Awe, c'mon guys ... you're being too hard on that guy!

You can get 3600 FPS out of a .280 Remington (cough) Handi-rifle with a 139 grain SST and H4831.  All it would take is around 69.4 grains of powder...too bad the case's max capacity is only around 59.9 grains.  Also, the pressure would be up around 102,000 PSI.

(BTW) My max load using that bullet and powder was 59.5 grains, and out of a 24" barrel I managed to get 2955 FPS, and pressure signs were starting to make themselves obvious.
http://stevespages.com/page8.htm

For a while (some of you may remember) I beat myself up trying to get better than 2850 out of my 280 (with a 23" barrel).  Using 58 gns of H4831. along with other powders and loads, never could get close to 3000fps.  My buddy, with the identical rifle as mine, along with another one in stainless got the exact same velocities.  Now maybe my Chrony is "slow" or maybe our 3 280 rifles are all "slow barreled".  But something just does not match up when I see lots of guys on the internet getting 3000 fps no problems shootin thru 22" barrels and  their various chronographs.  Maybe I can believe 3000fps but 3600fps  :eek: I mean no offense but I would have to see it to believe it.   And I really would like to see it. . . from a bit of a distance.

Long

My friends who have custom 7STW's with 28-30" custom barrels are going
to be upset to hear that this 26"barrel Handi-Rifle can be loaded to outdo
their collective best efforts. I have not worked up the courage yet to tell
them.

I sure had better not tell their wives that they could have obtained more
velocity for under $250.00!!  

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=66831

[Mac11700]

You have very good points.  I'm going to back up a bit and try to make the original point.

I see...I would suppose this is your explanation of why you edited your post that tried to take me to task completely?
   

These are just my opinions.I consult with manufactures regularly, take note and sometime get things right.  Maybe sometimes wrong.

     


This is good...we all make mistakes...nobody is perfect...but the main difference between me and you is I will admit it...and this is something you haven't done yet...

What I don't do is exceed any manufacturersrecommendations.

How can this be? If your Chrongraph is in good working order...then please explain how you can achieve 3600 FPS in your 280?
 
 

It doesn't mean it cannot be done. People have pushed the 45-70 over 28,000 for years.

Yes..and Safely too

I've seen a lot of split brass too. Not all brass is created equal. There is a difference in the strength of the .450 Marlin case than in the industry standard 45-70 case.

Are you saying you've never caused the split brass...and it's only been because of a manufacures defect? Hmmm...I would bet you have seen quite a bit with your 280 loads...  
     


Well...since you won't admit that your 3600 fps 139gr. 280 reload in a Handi rifle is a mistake..one way or another...this statement of yours cannot be true...      
   

Part of the problem of the pressure range both calibers operate in is that traditional signs of excessive pressure do not apply.

Oh Really...did the rules of reloading just magicly change for these 2 cartridges? I think not...the rules do apply for both the 45-70 and the 450 Marlin

You can be over 50,000 easy and never stick a case or flatten a primer and without putting a strain gauge on the receiver, you have no clue as to how close to failure you may be - or - may not be.

I've loaded extensively for the 45-70...and high pressure signs show up quite frequently...if the charges have been pushed...and depending on the rifle some at much lower velocities...because each rifle is different...and another thing...all one has to do is to have their reloads tested...granted...it's not the cheapest or quickest for results...but...the results are varified in writting by the testing faucility...I've had some of my 45-70 loads tested...and know full well what the pressures are in them...and have talked with the good folks at Hodgdons on my loads...this is something I suggest you try...instead of just paying lip service to what is published...  
     

I'm sure if NEF says it is OK to push a 45-70 to 43,000 you are good to go. I do know they will instruct you not to load past the lever action standard and not to try the Ruger 1.  Anyone really wanting a good answer should call the factory.

Tisk...Tisk...Tisk...do you even read the litriature that comes in a Handi Rifles box...if so...please consult your Owners Manual if you even own one...1st page...2nd paragraph under the first red warning paragraph...and I quote" H&R assumes no liability or responsability for injusry or damages resulting from misuse,neglect,alterations,the use of parts not of our manufacture..(here's the biggy) or the use of ammunition that is faulty,handloaded,reloaded,or not made to the above standards.

What this means is they will never tell you that it is ok to load above SAMMI pressures for ANY cartridge...period...What they will tell you is that those that have haven't reported any failures with them......because of liability... like if someone was stupid enough to try a push a 139gr reload for the 280 at 3600 fps all the time...and when..not if...it blew up and hurt the shooter or bystander or damaged the rifle...they wouldn't be held responsible...  
     

While the .280/.270/30-06 are all 60,000 or better, they all push significantly lighter projectiles.

...yep...this is correct...

The Ruger 1 loads for a 45-70 are 50,000 cup as I recall. Yes, 50,000 cup is less than 60,000

Sorry ...but I had to break in here...did you not know that the CUP and the PSI for the 45-70 are basicly the same?...apparently not...

+ but the impulse function in trying to move a 300 to 500 grain bullet from a dead stop to go in a 45-70/450 Marlin  is significantly more stressful than a 130 or so grain bullet in a 270.

Not really...this would all depend on the total amount of impulse the standing breech or bolt is recieving...and since the 270-280-30-06 pressures are significantly higher..and the impulse time is significantly quicker..the fatiqued on the firearm is higher...load the 45-70 or the 450 Marlin to the same pressures and then it would stress the firearm more..


 

Not to mention, the reaction is directly in the direction of ones face. Hey, I am not claiming to be a firearm designer and don't think I know better than the factory.

This is a good thing...  
     

It is like comparing stomping the gas or pushing down more slowly. One way you are more likely to spin a tire. Why? because you can only apply so much force to overcome momentum (or in this case - the lack of) before something snaps.   A man's shoulder can understand the difference, why can't his brain?

I haven't a clue...why can't you...?    
     

If the factory advises not exceeding lever action levels - why would anyone intentionally do so? Do they somehow know more than the folks who built the thing?

The factory doesn't advise you to not load over Lever Action Levels...they advise you not to load to over SAMMI  Standards for the cartridge...and in the case of the 45-70...these are kept  at safe trapdoor loads...for all the old rifles that would not take the higher pressures...this is why there are many companies offering high pressure 45-70 loads...that have been proven safe in the Marlin 1895 rifles and in the Handi's...yes...I said proven safe...not by some arm chair ballestician who thinks he has all the answers...but by reputable companies who have thuroghly tested their products and the rifles it is shot in. The argument over the strenghts of the 45-70 have been around ...and yes...it has been loaded from mild to wild...but...while the Handi rifle isn't a weak action...it isn't as strong as a ruger #1 or #3..or a Siamese bolt action or a Browing 1886...or Highwall..or a .C.Sharps and Shiloh model...so the very highest pressures that could be loaded...shouldn't...

 

The .450 Marlin is a modernized standard which is intended to operate at 43,000 cup. It is designed in every way to operate at that pressure.

 

No argument from me here...but...if you are implying the 45-70 has as high of pressure to achive the same velocity...that isn't the case...and this is due to the internal capacity differences between the 2 cartridges...
   

-just a rhetorical question:  
Is it even conceivable that the factory (any factory) has had a bad batch of steel come in at some point in its history?

Sure it's concivable that they have had a bad batch...but I think they have enough safegards in place that they won't be shipped out and sold...

If NEF's manufacturing tolerances and/or product confidence/QC were as high as say Ruger, T/C, or Browning, why do you think they require you to send each barrel back to be checked, fitted and head-spaced?

Man...you just don't get it do you...the reason is simply they are produced differently for different cost and for liability reasons ...What we are doing with our barrels ...they know about...believe me...they do...from the Board Members and  CEO of Marlin all the way down the management  line to the folks at the plants...they know...namely because we told them what we are doing and why...did you  even read this announcement...http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=64112

Are they inspecting for a possible manufacturing defect or fatigue? I don't know and I haven't asked. But I guarantee there is a reason.

Sure...they inspect them when they come back...it's part of the cost...

 
   

NEF isn't a bad company. I am not saying that they are. I think they produce a very good product for the money. However strong the fan base is here in this forum, it is unreasonable to expect perfection from them and if they establish a maximum safe level for any of their products, I'll bet they have sound reasoning for doing so.

They are a good company...one that given the oppourtunity I would buy stock in in a heartbeat...and again...the levels given are just as most other munfactures...it's called liability...    
   

NEF isn't even competing in the same market segment as any other American manufacturing firearm company that I know of. Having watched them a while, I believe they are adding newer designs and expanding their product line to improve their position.  The folks at NEF aren't stupid by any means. I suspect full well they know where they have been and where they are now and where they want to go. If they establish a limit - stick to it.

Nope...not really about limits...some folks if you read about them...are trying to change that...  
   

Statistically speaking, there will always be those products that perform exceptionally well and those that fall short. So if someone doesn't get the same results as someone else it doesn't mean that either are wrong or either are right for that matter

Are we talking about the supposed 3600 fps 280 load again?...

Manufacturing tolerances stack up - sometime to the good and sometime to the bad. It is a fact of all manufacturing.  Manufacturers take this into consideration when the establish their standards.

I don't know what book your reading this out of...but not all companies are like this...some...actually care and if  there are to many problems they change...and this is what's trying to be done at NEF by Diana..
   

If a product's factory produces a specification or recommendation - you will do best to follow it. People drink and drive every day. Should they?

Ahh...then why don't you follow your own recomendations and stick to book loads instead of proof loads for your 280...or at least admit your mistake on the velocity...cause quite frankly...nobody believes it anyway...

Mac

[Mac11700]

Ridel:  
 
If my above post offends you...I'm sorry.I truly think you need to rethink your statements for your 280 Handi for a number of reasons,most of which have already been stated..I know it is difficult for you since you painted yourself into a corner already..but...as the old saying goes..." A wise man always can always change his mind...a fool never does..."  
 
I am not the brightest star in the sky...but I'm certainly not the dullest either...and I have been reloading for many years...as others have on this forum as well...and we all have made mistakes in the past...and have said stupid things...hopefully..we learn from them and move on to better things...  
 
For safety sake...we usually don't allow folks to post dangerous loads...and advise the forum members when those loads are posted...a-lot of us watch for this...and someone will catch them and post a warning  about it...each of us who handloads for our guns accept the resposibility of our actions...because what we are doing is dangerous...and we understand this...and we follow the safe procedure of working up slowly in small increments watching for all the signs of high pressures...while some of the obvious signs may not always be present...most of them are ...and when they show up...we take the needed action to correct the problem,and...yes...some of us load higher than published loads...for we have something...the factory doesn't...and this...is our rifles...because each rifle is different...and since they aren't testing the loads in our rifles...the results will vary...but 99.99% of the time...not dramiticly...unless something is wrong.....The factory will publish a safe range...plus or minus in either a test barrel or a loaned rifle...while some rifles show over pressure signs below the published loads...some don't and can go a couple grains over the published maxium charge...the powder companies know this...and will tell you as much...but...what they do say is to work up in very very small increments when getting close to the max charges...smaller charges than the start charges...a knowledgable handloader...knows how to do this safely...  
 
Using a chronograph is also part of the regiment...not all members have the luxury of owning one...so those of us that do share our finding with them...and using the chronoghraph correctly for load development is vital part of reloading.. Whenever you achieve a much greater velocity than a published documented load has given for the minimum...or the maximum......this is one of the warning signs that you should look for. For your stated velocity of 3600 fps for a Hornady 139 grain bullet from the NEF 280 Handi Rifle...you should have stopped and re-evaluated your load  if and when you got above 3100 fps...any knowledgable handloader would have done so...there are several things to check for...none of which you have stated you did to ensure you were loading safely...had you posted a complete break down of all your chronograph readings...and your safety checks on the fired case and had posted what your findings were...this could have given folks a better look at your practices...and inturn given us more to go on to diagnose your loads and procedures...and help find a cause for the erroneous readings your getting.....but...alas...the die is set now...and that is a shame...  
 
Again...I am sorry if my post have offended you...but ...perhaps next time...you could be a-little more forthcoming with pertinent information...to back up your claims...  
 
Take care...  
 
Mac