Question about cryrogenic barrel treatment.

[JS44]

Has anyone had their muzzleloader barrel cryo treated? It's supposed to be good for modern rifles and I would assume that a muzzleloader would profit at least to some degree from it.
Thanks.
JS

[Naphtali]

Benefit to material is benefit to material. Just be certain you are aware of what to expect from liquid nitrogen @ one hour per inch soak, then slow restore to ambient temperature.

[hans g./UpS]

In modern firearms,the results are mixed[NRA conclusion-and mine].
I didn't notice an improvement in accuracy on a modern rifle,it change the rifle's preference re projectile weight.Supposedly the treatment allows easier cleaning.
I'll be curious to hear your experience.

[lostid]

isn't this topic sposta be about traditional muzzleloading rifles and shotguns?

now of a sudden we have folks posting about  "nitrogen freezing ' temper of iron,and another that won't participate in Olde" style shooting because of past comments, that is telling us all how long it takes too soak a barrel(per inch) in sub-zero to get the proper temper too shoot better?? :shock:

Uhm?,Ah? aag? wha?    cryo-what?  as if cryo treating anything will make a better shooter,, hang-up the science boy and pick-up the gun,,shoot,,learn.
 cryo-what? hhuh?

[crow_feather]

Of course. The indians used to treat their barrels.  Drop em in a vat of liquid nitrogen before they shot em.  This way they could pee on the powder in the bore and shoot an ice bullet at ya.

My GranPap told me so.

C F

[JS44]

Uh oh :roll:
I didn't intend to upset anyone. To clarify things the rifle in question is my Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .50 percussion and NOT an inline ( I HATE inlines). I only use real Goex FFg black powder and patched round balls. Cryogenic treating is not done at home but in a controlled shop environment where it can be done incrementally. Another shooter and myself were talking about this at the range yesterday.
Is it a traditional process? No. But my Lyman was made in Italy in the 2000's and not St. Louis in the 1840's. Cryogenic treating will NOT affect the appearance. The reason I was thinking about this proccess for my rifle was to possibly inprove it's accuracy and/or make it easier to clean during those swabbings it needs every few shots at the range.
Sorry if I wasn't clear about my question fhe first time.
JS

[Naphtali]

When I worked in the tool & die (metal) finishing industry, cryogenic treatment of tool steels was done to enhance wear resistance, ductility, fatigue strength -- that's it.

Unless or until I see raw test data and methodology myself, not summaries, perhaps you should be sceptical of claims of enhanced accuracy attributed to freezing.
*****
Parenthetically, I own a Lyman GPR .54-caliber. Regardless what you do to it, do you really believe you will improve its accuracy -- that is, will its point blank range improve significantly?

It's a round-ball rifle that can shoot Lee REAL bullets or BallEts. Neither of these adds much range. I kind've doubt it will be efficient beyond 115 meters unless you know the range on a gnat's behind, and practice a whole bunch.

[crow_feather]

Also I would suggest that you read some of the threads on bore butter, moose milk, bore treatments, and wiping tween shots.  You do not have to wipe tween shots, or at all while you are at the range.  It is possible.  Just have to learn the process.  Please don't be offended by my attempt at humor, I haven't been let out of the house all winter.

C F

[JS44]

Usually with 2F I can get 2 shots out of it before I have to wipe. Sometimes 3 but it's tough. I can go longer with 3F.  
Thanks.
JS

[crow_feather]

If I keep oil out of my barrel, and I use a good moose milk with 3f powder, I can go all day without wiping my 54 rifle shooting round ball.  It is possible, just stay away from patroleum products.


C F

[JS44]

The only time I use a petroleum oil is after I've cleaned it at the end of the day. That's only for a preservative against rust. For bore swabbing at the range I use Windex (something else the indians didn't have  :lol: ). For a patch lube I've been using something called "Just Good Lube"  byOl' Thunder Mfg. It's made from jojoba oil and bees wax. I used Lehigh Valley before that.
The whole idea about cryogenics was a grasp at straws. This gun just plain does not shoot well and I've meticulously experimented and documented. I've about worn this board out in the past 2 years asking for and getting advice about it. I won't start any more threads about this rifle's problems. I'll figure it out or stop shooting it all together and get something else.
Thanks.
JS

[Naphtali]

Is this "conversing at the fourth level" or what?

So the query is about a barrel that for two years hasn't shot for beans? Okay, let's try to solve the problem.

After two years of fighting with it, is it reasonable to assume that you've fired more than 300 patched RBs through the barrel? If yes, any burr or irregularity must be severe.

Lyman GPR barrels are cut rifled and appear to have a tradition of being delivered with burrs/edges that need to be worn/shot smooth.

Is it also reasonable to assume you are shooting projectiles appropriate for the rate of twist? For example, Great Plains Hunter has twist too rapid for using RBs, and GPR cannot shoot two-diameter long bullets accurately.

If you are shooting appropriate projectiles, it is remotely possible that Investarms installed the other barrel and mislabeled it. Compare your barrel's I.D. with any barrel whose accurate load is known. Quick twist looks like tight spiral and visa versa. If this is okay, . . .
***
Shoot a dozen or so shots, and pick up your patches. Look for tears -- not burn-throughs. If you see nothing . . .
***
Do you have a worm strong enough to screw in a GROOVE DIAMETER pure Pb cylinder or RB? If yes, force the cylinder to the breech plug, then pull it out. Use a lamp with integrated magnifier to examine the slug for irregularities along lands or grooves.

Again, you are looking for burrs or some sign of severe distortion.
***
If you detect anything, you'll have several possible remedies.

1. Try reducing the O.D. of your RB about .070-.010 inch. What we're trying is a projectile that doesn't grip the spiral as tightly.

2. Try a much higher thread count of canvas rather than pillow ticking while compensating for any increase in patch thickness by reducing O.D. of RB.

3. Have the barrel's I.D. polished.

[JS44]

Naphtali,
I haven't counted the shots but it safe to say that over 300 rounds have been put through it. Early on, when it was REALLY inaccurate, someone here suggested lapping the bore with bore paste and I did that. Doing that helped a lot but I didn't want ot overdo it.
The bore is rifled 1:66 so I've been using round balls. Specifically Hornady .490" balls. The patching has been .017 -.020" pillow ticking. Both pre-cut round patches carefully centered and ones I cut from a strip at the muzzle after the short starter.  
I haven't picked up any spent patches lately and maybe I should but I haven't seen any burnt though or ripped patches last time I looked at them.
I could be wrong but the only .50 cal balls I know of that I can get are .490" and .495". I don'd cast my own (yet).

The wierd thing is that this rifle has shot 5 shot groups of under 3" at 100 yds. Take it home and clean it and the next time we're back to groups twice that size or BIGGER even when using exactly the same materials and loading process.
The objective is to get it to shoot consistantly session after session as long as I don't change anything.
Thanks for your help. I'll get there even if it means buying a new rifle.
JS
.

[lostid]

cf is telling one thing,,and naphlairy is telling you another, i'll try this just once more.
 Using oil as a rust preventive is just fine. Yet you "Must" remove all oils from the bore, firechamber, and nipple proir to shooting bp or "faux" bp to prevent any and all build-up of fouling in your rifle! I use oil for long term storage,,yet before I shoot it's like the age old cleaning prosses again,,soap and water....Then break cleaner till all is clean and dry.

 Then I can shoot it like a new gun. Any oil deposits on any of the shooting components from the nip through the muzzel "WILL" foul all of consecutive shot's. (period)
 The best advise i've seen here about shooting accuracy is to start with a "clean, dry,  gun".  Oil looks wet,,can't have wet,,"clean, dry".  it's a pita, but that's what it takes,,it's a hard row,,cleaning dang guns!! but ain't no easy way about it,,wanna shoot good?,,then clean good and follow good advise. Don't Mix an Match advise,,just follow one way,and follow through with it,,

[JS44]

The way I've been oiling the bore after cleaing is with an oiled patch run down the bore and back a few times. Before I go shooting I run a patch soaked with alcohol (90% IPA) down and up  the bore a few times then fire a cap or two.
JS

[lostid]

yup, that's it then. that little bit of oil is all it takes.

 Isopropyl don't cut oil. iso is a catalyst that removes water. Experiment yourself,,put two drops of your oil on a small plate,,rub it around a little bit ,,then put iso on a patch and rub it around on the oily plate. You'll find that the cloth of the iso patch picked-up some of the oil. Yet the iso will evaporate before all of the oil is removed from the plate. simple, and true.

 Any brake cleaner,, will be a catalyst for petroleulm products an (eythel) based cleaner..Try the experiment again. it won't clean it all but it will alot more!!

Dawn dish soap,,"The Grease Cutter",works really well, just a few drops in water and proper washing,,then the iso patch to get the water out,,

There are several variations of the abouve explainations,, the jist of the story is,,Ya gotta be able to run a white patch down the bore and have it come out white, before the gun is clean. If the gun ain't clean it won't shoot too good next tyme ya try ta shoot it, anyways good luck too ya

[Longcruise]

Can't figger out wherefrom came the idea that cryo treating would make a rifle easier to clean :?

[crow_feather]

Black powder rifles did well for two hundred years without oil.  Then oil was discovered.  Now we have loading problems, crud ring problems, wiping tween shots problems, etc. etc.

Go back to the way things worked well - before oil.  Use a non patroleum cleaner and rust preventer.  Didn't need it back then, don't need it now.\

C F

[lostid]

longcruise,,thanks for the comment 2 weeks old and the link to your web site with music that say's nothing about your shooting

cf your right!

[Longcruise]

2 weeks old and the link to your web site with music that say's nothing about your shooting

Do you mean the home page link in my signature?

There is shooting stuff in there, but it's sorta buried in "miscellaneous" and "projects"

Probably could use an overh haul

[JS44]

I took it shooting again yesterday morning. This time I used brake cleaner to flush/swab out the oil. I took the barrel off and really hosed it out good with brake cleaner then ran 2 patches soaked with brake cleaner down the bore. I would have and probably should have used dish soap and water first as suggested but I forgot to at the time.
Anyway, at the range nothing was any better. I still had to swab the bore once after each 2nd shot and even then i had to really pound the ball down. More like a piledriver than a ramrod. Accuracy was still pathetic  :x . I found some of the fired patches and they weren't cut or burned though. Next time I'll  remember to use soap and water THEN brake cleaner.
JS

[Longcruise]

Anyway, at the range nothing was any better. I still had to swab the bore once after each 2nd shot and even then i had to really pound the ball down. More like a piledriver than a ramrod. Accuracy was still pathetic  . I found some of the fired patches and they weren't cut or burned though. Next time I'll remember to use soap and water THEN brake cleaner.

Well, first off, many shooters myself included do wipe the bore after every shot.  If I loosen my components a bit (patch or ball size) I can shoot repeatedly without wiping as long as the powder charge is not too hot that it tears up the "loose" load.  My point being, what is wrong with wiping after each shot?

I seems from your descriptions that you are loading pretty tight, which is a good thing for accuracy, as long as you don't have to beat the ball into a flat nose to get it down

I've been around the horn now with two GPR's and am about to begin building another one for a friend.  Both of the previous guns cut patches and gave up horrible accuracy in the beginning.  Both now shoot nicely after break-in.

You can break it in with 300 or 500 or a 1,000 shots or you can lap it.  Lapping a modern barrel with JB paste seems to be pretty popular and apparently it serves a purpose.  The two GPR's mentioned above, along with five other ml guns were all firelapped with excellent results and with 20 or 25 lap shots doing the work of 500 or a 1,000 break-in shots.  You can also hand lap with a lead slug, but believe me, firelapping is much simpler, faster and equally effective.

The fellow that I'm building the gpr for also bought a Cabelas Hawkin from me to shoot in the time being.  The CH was unfired and the bore had the typical rough sharp characteristics of Italian bores (like the GPR).  Matter of fact, I beleive the GPR and the CH are both made by Investarms.  Long story short (I know, too late for that ) When I handed him the rifle I also handed him some bore lapping compound and instructions on how to firelap the barrel.  He followed the instructions to the letter and after 20 lap shots he cleaned it up good and commenced shooting at targets.  This is his first ml gun and he was amazed at the accuracy of the rifle.  

If you read through this forum, you will find many threads that make it seem like a newbie to ml shooting has to apprentice for a few years and then take a grueling test before that shooter will get any kind of results in shooting a front stuffer.  Truth is, many new shooters give up long before they have even begun to break in their rifles.

[JS44]

Longcruise,
I can swab between each shot if I have to and I did for quite a while but it got to be too much of a pain. I might have to revisit that method again. I tried JB bore past not long after I got the GPR 2 years ago and it did help. It was REALLY bad before that. What I did was put some on a patch over the range rod's jag and give it 75 strokes in and out. After each 25 I'd change to a new patch and bore paste. What I'm trying to accomplish is to get a one size fits all load that's good for just shooting and hunting. I'm using 90 grains of Goex 2F. I could be wrong but some Goex lots seem dirtier than others and I just started on a new can.
Thanks.
JS

[Longcruise]

I can swab between each shot if I have to and I did for quite a while but it got to be too much of a pain

Yeah, I know, but you will also find more consistency and once it becomes a habit and you organize your motions and equipment around it it becomes second nature.  My method to wipe between shots is to just dampen my wiping patch and run it down the bore working the bottom of the chamber with a few short strokes and then pull it out.  If you don't get the patch too wet, there is no need for a dry patch afterwards.  I even reuse the wiping patch by running the opposite side down the next shot.

I tried JB bore past not long after I got the GPR 2 years ago and it did help.

Go to the LBT forum (right next to the cast bullet forum) in this site and order Veral Smith's bore lapping kit for about $16 or order the Wheeler bore lapping kit from Midway.  Get some .50 caliber conicals and use the compound per the instructions with a charge of about 20 or 25 grains of ff.  Twenty or 25 conicals will do the job.  Wipe the barrel up good after each lap shot and if the conicals don't have lube, then don't use any if they do have lube try to wipe as much off as possible.  When you are done, clean your rifle up good with the hot water method and a dab of soap.  The next time you go shooting, I guarantee you will see a difference in retained fouling, ease of loading and it will be easier on the patch although you don't seem to be having that problem.

What I'm trying to accomplish is to get a one size fits all load that's good for just shooting and hunting. I'm using 90 grains of Goex 2F. I could be wrong but some Goex lots seem dirtier than others and I just started on a new can.

If you are hunting deer and smaller game, you should be ok with a 60 or 70 grain load.  If you are hunting bigger animals you might want to consider a .54

A fellow by the name of Knight, also known as "the mad monk" has done a lot of bp experimenting and has documented it to be a fact that goex does vary considerably lot to lot.  Goex claims that their powder is more consistent since they moved to Louisiana.

[lostid]

What I'm trying to accomplish is to get a one size fits all load that's good for just shooting and hunting. I'm using 90 grains
JS

 I'm probably wrong again, but 90 grs. of 2f in a 50 cal round ball shooter is a short range Bear load! you'll not see true accuracy beyond "pie plate" at 25 yards with a load that heavy in a GPR.
 Florida deer and them pigs you got down there, don't have the body mass needed for that kind of "knock-down" power, it's simply not what's required for accuracy.(and placement=hunting)
 If you where to start at 55 grains, then shoot 5 shot groups at a 50 yard paper target at an increasing load of 5 grains per increment/group(55-60-65-70- thru 90,,,) And if you maintained the bore condition, patch size and lube for each shot, you would have found the "point of diminishing returns" for your prb for that combo,lost yet?
 Just changing powder charge from 55 thru 90, trying to find the "right" load for you,, you've gone through 200 rounds. Now, for a new rifle that's just about "break in",,(not only the gun,,but the shooter too)

there is no fast fix for shooting well with any gun, bb's, pellet,.22,shotgun,centerfire or bp arms.

i use just under 80grains in my .54 prb. i ain't the best shooter out there by any means, but I can smack a 6" circle at 100 enough times ta bet on it

[JS44]

I'll try and reduce the powder load next time out and go back to swabbing between shots. By the way I've been using Windex on the patch for these swabbings. Probably go back to using Lehigh Valley lube, too, since that's where I had the best luck in the past when I could get good groups out of it. The lube I've been using is kind of thick and dense.
I'll look into Veral Smith's lapping kit if that doesn't work.
Thanks.
JS

[lostid]

Do you realize that increased fouling in the bore from shot to shot will increase pressure and "lower" the point of impact to your projectile as from point of aim?
 Given the consistency of patch size and lubrication, a continually fouled bore with out proper cleaning will force shot patterns lower. Very much opposite of what folks would think. High pressures shoot High,Right? nope, high pressures rip the poop out of patch.
 Now with that. the common solution is to change the sight elevation to compensate. after a while there is no adjustment left and it's a problem with the gun. it shoot's all over the place! The next common thing is too say it won't shoot ball,,What's the best "conical" to shoot in my rifle? and thay do the same thing,,max loads and don't clean till the day's shooting is done, I really wish I could help man, if I lived near ya I could show ya an help,,but this internet thing ,,,,,well

[JS44]

I would have never guessed that raising pressure from fouling would cause the POI to lower.  
JS

[Longcruise]

Increased fouling will increase velocity.  I know that doesn't sound right but it's so :eek:   Increased velocity could cause the ball to leave the muzzle earlier in the recoil cycle (muzzle jump) and cause the ball to hit lower? :?   Izzat what were saying here?

[lostid]

I'm not really sure how to explain it scientific.
 Every shot  deposits fouling in the bore, that's just plain, simple, truth.
If something isn't done after each shot to clear the bore, then each consecutive shot deposits more fouling.( there are several ways to clear fouling after each shot).
 Given the aspect of prb and variables, if the patch is stasis, and the lubrication is stasis, and the ball is the same size and weight,,the shooter will realize a downward vertical string of his group  for upwards to 10 or 15 shots. After that point, the lands and grooves of the rifle will be so fouled it will no longer im-part to the ball the rifling twist and adequate proper rotation. and all further shot's will be low near the same place or random at 50 yards.
 In plain words the rifling is plugged,,fouled.
 Will it shoot? Sure it will. But the ball(prb) isn't being spun anymore, it's "skipping" the rifling,,. The same problem occurs with maxi-ball or minnie and "Magnum" loads. The projectile is forced forward so fast by the heavey charge, it can't get rotation from the barrel properly. It will have Feet Per Second^,,and it will have Foot Pounds of Energey^,butt,,,,