Author Topic: Questions about getting the old 30/30 ready for silhouette..  (Read 1346 times)

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Offline Jason

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I have an old Marlin 336RC with Microgroove barrel that I want to get ready for shooting the long range cowboy silhouette match.  I've got a few questions about it, though.

First, do you crimp your loads for cowboy lever shooting? Most of the data I see out there says to crimp loads used in tubular magazines, but I haven't crimped any of my reloaded ammo yet, mostly because they are all point bullets in single shots or stack magazines. Even in stack magazine guns that are lightweight and big kickers, I've never had a bullet move enough to measure with my calipers, even the last one that I pulled from the magazine to check.

Second and partially related to the first, what dies do you suggest for loading the 30/30 for silhouette? If I'm going to be crimping, does that mean I need a seperate crimping die? I already have a RCBS two-die set (full length) for 30/30 that I've never used. I guess I could just snag an extra crimp die, but would it be worth it to get a high quality set that includes a crimp die?

What powders do you suggest? I like the Hodgdon Extreme series powders because they seem to handle differences in temperatures very well for me. I have a fair number of different powders on hand, mostly from loading for my bolt rifles (and AR15) and shotguns. I was surprised to see 30/30 data in the Hodgdon manual for Varget, of all powders. :)

What components do you suggest using? Since the gun shoots the factory 150-grain Winchester Powerpoints so well, I grabbed a bag of 100 Winchester brass and a hundred or two of the 150-grain Powerpoint bullets. I'm not really stuck on using either, though, and wouldn't have a problem with just using them for practice loads if it came to that. I've heard that stout loads with 170-grain bullets are more reliable on rams, but I've heard just as many others say that they aren't necessary.

Is adding a modern recoil pad allowed within the rules? The gun is a little short on length of pull for me and replacing the plastic factory buttplate with a 1" thick recoil pad would get the LOP almost perfect. Of course, a Limbsaver recoil pad would also make me not care at all about recoil, as I never even think about recoil now that I have those pads on my bigger kicking rifles.

Last, what would you suggest for cleaning 50+ years of grime off the stock ? I haven't decided if I'm going to actually refinish it yet, so for now I'm just wanting to get back down to the original factory finish. While I'm asking, though, feel free to give suggestions on what would be best to get the old factory finish off so I can pull out the dents and such and give the old gun a nice, hand-rubbed oil finish. :)

Ok, I think that's enough questions for now. I'm sure I'll have more later.

Offline anthonyg

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30 30 loads
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2005, 04:49:53 PM »
HI JASON  I SHOOT A 30 30 LEVER ACTION AND I HAD GREAT LUCK WITH 29.3 GRAINS OF 3031 POWDER USING 170GRAIN SIERRA FLAT POINTS.YOU CAN USE YOUR DIES, FULL lenght RESIZE BY ADJUSTING YOUR DIE TO TOUCH THE SHELL HOLDER.SEAT YOUR BULLETS TO THE cannelure USING YOUR SEATING DIE .YOU CAN USE THAT DIE TO CRIMP HOWEVER I USE THE LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE TO CRIMP. IT IS AN EXTRA STEP BUT THE CRIMP IS PERFECT I ALSO MOUNTED THE MARBLE TANG SIGHT ON MY 30 30 AND IT IS ACCURATE FUN TO SHOOT AND REPEATABLE. HAVE FUN ENJOY                                              GOOD LUCK
                                                       ANTHONY G
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Offline Tony Tello

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Questions about getting the old 30/30 ready
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2005, 05:37:23 PM »
Hello Jason, I will just tell you what I am doing and you decide whether the advice is sound or not.  I am shooting a Winchester Teddy Roosevelt commemorative with a Marble's tang sight and a Lyman 17 front sight.

My loads consist of 34 gr of Varget and I use Winchester brass and 110 FMJ Sierra for the first two distances and Remington 150 bulk bullets for the longer distances.  There are only four clicks difference from chickens to pigs on the Marble's sight, no change for turkeys and less than one turn up for the Rams.  

I do not crimp my loads, the rules say that the ammo has to be loaded through the magazine but it does not say that it has to be loaded all at the same time, so I load two to start and then one at a time.  My 110,s do not have a cannelure so it would not do any good to crimp them.

I have been shooting the long range cowboy for over five years, tried different things, so far this set up and loads have worked the best for me.  Last year I won the CA State Championship and I tied the National open record with a score of 56X60.

Offline Steelbanger

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Questions about getting the old 30/30 ready
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2005, 12:30:33 AM »
Unless the rules have changed since my copy of NRA Rifle Silhouette Rules was printed (Feb. 2001), you must use flat nose bullets.

On page 8, Section 3.3.3, subsection 3. "3. Ammunition may be loaded with smokeless or black powder, using jacketed or cast bullets, with or without gas checks. All bullets must be flat nosed suitable for tubular magazine use."

My loads are based on the above rule and I use 170 Speer FP's & WW 748 through the entire course, crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp die, loaded into the magazine before the "Fire" command.
"He who has gone, so we but cherish his memory, abides with us, more potent, nay, more present, than the living man."
Antoine de Saint-Expuéry

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Marlin - a hard habit to break.

Offline Tony Tello

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Questions about getting the old 30/30 ready
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2005, 06:39:34 AM »
Steelbanger, also read on bottom of page 8

(a) Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette

A. Any lever action center fire rifle 25 caliber or larger with a tubular magazine of original manufacture or replica thereof.  A rimmed case loaded with a round or flat nosed bullet must be used.

The 110 FMJ bullets that I am using are round nose bullets no different than the bulk 150gr Remington makes for the 30-30

Offline Jason

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Questions about getting the old 30/30 ready
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2005, 07:31:23 AM »
Thanks for the advice. I already have the Lyman front sight and Williams FP receiver sight on it, just like on my Marlin 39a that I use for smallbore. I'll probably be using a target scope for load development, though.  I do definitely want to crimp the bullets and load all of them into the magazine before the fire command, at least for now.

Tony,
It's nice to know that you are having good luck with the farther distances with 150-grain bullets. I was hoping to not have to go with two different bullets for my ram loads and "everything else" loads, although I may still do so just to make it really obvious which loads are which. It's also nice to know that you've been having good luck with the Varget powder, as I use it for other rifles and getting it to work for the 30/30 would keep me from having to add another powder to the shelf.

Offline Steelbanger

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Questions about getting the old 30/30 ready
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2005, 08:01:41 AM »
Tony Tello,

 I stand corrected. Wonder why they put in two different descriptions of bullet types.

As for crimping, a long time ago I knew of someone using a chrage of Hodgdons 4831 in his 30-30 that just about filled the case and after the bullet was seated it required no crimp because the bullet couldn't be seated any deeper due to the compressed powder charge.

Best regards,
"He who has gone, so we but cherish his memory, abides with us, more potent, nay, more present, than the living man."
Antoine de Saint-Expuéry

Steelbanger, NRA Life

Marlin - a hard habit to break.

Offline Tony Tello

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Questions about getting the old 30/30 ready
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2005, 03:49:14 PM »
Steelbanger,

Some times stuff like that happens when rules are revised.  I do not think that the NRA Sil Committee has ever on purpose taken the round nosed bullets from the description of the bullet types.  I have followed all changes made to the original cowboy rules and that has not been one that I remember.

I am not advising that people should not crimp their cartridges or use the 110 FMJ carbine bullets unless they load them one at a time through the magazine like I do, doing other wise is asking for trouble.

Offline Sixgun

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Questions about getting the old 30/30 ready
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2005, 09:23:30 AM »
I was asking the same questions just a few months ago.

It is always a good idea to crimp your loads when they are going through a tubular magazine.  It can ruin your day if a bullet gets pushed back down into the case and at the very least, accuracy is better when all of the bullets are the same length and you never know what recoil or spring pressure is doing to the bullet.  I use a Lee Factory crimp die to crimp my bullets.

I had a set of full length RCBS 30-30 dies when I started loading for Cowboy Rifle silhouette.  I used them for a while but got tired of lubing, cleaning lube off and trimming cases.  That may be okay when you are doing a few rounds to hunt with but when you are trying to load enough to shoot and practice your silhouette games you need a better idea.  I had been using a Lee Collet die for my 22 hornet that I shoot NRA Hunter pistol with and it eliminated all of the above steps.  It saves a bunch of time to use a Lee Collet die because you do not have to lube the cases and they don't streach when you resize them so if you are shooting fairly mild loads, you will probably never need to trim your cases again.  On my hornet cases, I just anneal them when the mouths start splitting and I am loading the first ones I ever bought for the 20th time this summer.  Lee does not recommend the
Collet dies for leveractions but I have had no problems and have now shot about 1000 of brass prepared with collet dies.

I had a hard time getting a powder that worked good with my cast bullets.  I shoot a RCBS 30-180-fp.  It weighs in right at 190gr from my mold with my alloy.  I had good results with lots of powders but not anything spectacular.  I wanted spectacular.  I stumbled on 31 gr of IMR 4831 for a velocity of 1800fps and I am getting 3 inch groups with a receiver sight at 200 meters.  I like that.

The only down side to my load is the recoil.  It is a little stiff and I lost my first match because I got into a shoot off for first place and was so punch drunk I couldn't hit a thing.  I started using my Upland Game Hunting vest that has a padded shoulder and everything is good.

This sure is fun!

Sixgun
You can only hit the target if the barrel is pointed in the right direction when the bullet leaves the barrel.

Offline ajj

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Questions about getting the old 30/30 ready
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2005, 10:34:07 AM »
I've had good luck too with the Lee collet dies. They're all I use for the bolt guns. Conventional wisdom is that lever actions are "springier" and that the brass needs shoulder bumping but in my Marlin 336 that just wasn't a problem. Now, I didn't shoot silhouette or high volume with that rifle but I used collet sized brass 5 or 6 firings without problems. Maybe the 30-30 brass is so thin that even a lever action will cam it on in there. Your mileage may vary.

Offline Steelbanger

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Questions about getting the old 30/30 ready
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2005, 11:33:42 AM »
I've always used the Lee 30-30 and 22 Hornet collet dies for my Contenders with no problems. Never tried them for a lever gun but you folks have made me curious. I will have to collet size a box & try them in my Marlin. We're probably all alike in that we would rather not have to wipe sizing lube from our cases.

Thanks guys.
"He who has gone, so we but cherish his memory, abides with us, more potent, nay, more present, than the living man."
Antoine de Saint-Expuéry

Steelbanger, NRA Life

Marlin - a hard habit to break.

Offline Jason

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Questions about getting the old 30/30 ready
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2005, 12:11:21 PM »
I guess I'm just the lazy one of the bunch. I use Hornady's One Shot spray lube and lube up about 50 cases, then do something else for a few minutes while it dries. Then I size them, trim them (Lee trimmer attached to drill mounted in vice), and toss them into the tumbler for a while. That would get really old trying to wipe the lube off by hand. :)

Offline AMB

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Questions about getting the old 30/30 ready
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2005, 03:15:14 PM »
The beautiful thing about CLA is you don't have to break the bank, to be competitive. I bought an old (1948 I think) Marlin 336A off the internet for $ 190.00, actually $ 215.00 delivered. It even has a small compass that still works imbedded in the top of the stock. Helps me find my way to the firing line LOL.   My dies are a set of old Herter's that I bought at a garage sale for $ 10.00 ( but they were in the original box and are like brand new ).  I found an old, good set of Lyman receiver sights on E-bay, not the crappy new alloy ones. My front sight is an old redfield that is similar to a Lyman 17A, again off of E-Bay. I probably have $ 70.00 in sights.

The gun had a broken butt plate which my dad replaced with a Recoil pad, which is Legal.  As long as the replacement is the same as the original, or a normal recoil pad, it's legal per the silhouette dept. Basically, stay inside the spirit of the rules.

One key is that my father did  trigger jobs on both my 336A & 39A, and they are EXCELLENT.  

I shoot fairly potent loads, because although we are an old established Hunters Pistol Range, are 200 Meter range is only a couple years old and still needs refined. (This by the way will be done this summer before a CLA Regional which we will be hosting right after Hunter Pistol Nationals in July. )  My C,P, T load is 130 G. Speer FN, in front of 35 g of W748 and Fed 210's. For  Rams 170 G. Sierra FN and 27 g. of H-322 same primer. I do crimp my cases. I do like to load all, into the magazine. We have been  also shooting 100 gr. plinkers, but squashing the noses in a vise to flatten them out, this was my Dad's idea. I loaded these with 17 grains of 4227, and they show potential. One of the other guy's also shoots the 30 carbine bullets like Tony was saying and they seem to do real well.

As far as load development goes my old rifle wasn't drilled and tapped for scope bases, so all my shooting was done with the open sights ( receiver peeps, front globe) at 50 and 100 Meters.  I then went out to 150 and 200 and the groups were still reasonable, so I didn't change anything.  So I don't know exactly how well for that matter the gun will shoot. But, I can usually call my shots fairly well and most important have confidence in the setup.

For, me the problem is less with recoil than with heat.  The gun just gets really hot in the summer. We shoot straight through on our monthly matches as opposed to squadded relays, because we don't draw enough shooters. Also, we combine both HP, and Long Range Pistol at these same shoots.  As we get our Range in Order, I'll work on milder loads. One thing I do is keep my gun really loose, ( a rattling old club) but it doesn't seem to walk around even as it heats up.

Our range is a shooters range, and the scores are great.  Bill Zewe, who was a top pistol silhouette shooter set the CLA national record in 2002, with a 55/60.  In 2003 the record went to 56 at our state shoot, and in 2004 at the state shoot the score went to 57x60.  Also, on the rimfire side the national record of 56xi60 was fired on our range in 2004, which had raised the old record or 54 which again had been shot on our range in 2003.

Bottom line is Cowboy is fun, and economical. I hope we get a nice turnout in July at the Regional we will be hosting. This will be taking place at the McKean County Rifle Club, Bradford, Pa.