R&D Conversion - 1849 Colt Pocket - problems?

[oldelm]

Howdy everyone....

I'm new to this forum and a very recent convert to cap & ball shooting. Seems like everyday I learn something new, and am having some great fun!
I have a Uberti 1849 Colt Pocket Pistol  which I purchased not too long ago, and was thinking about picking up an R&D conversion cylinder so it would shoot .32 S&W cartridges.  But I'm somewhat worried that I could encounter some problems that I've read about , but can't remember where I saw it......It said that due to case head recoil,  the backplate tends to tip backwards and emboss itself onto the frame's recoil ring , due to the softer metal of the frame.

I don't know what kind of problems this could lead to with prolonged use, but it doesn't seem like the kind of thing I would want to spend $200. on just to find out. Has anyone here purchased the R&D conversion cylinder for the Colt Pocket or Baby Dragoon, and if so , how 's it been working out for you? Or perhaps someone could fill me in  on any more info about this. Any feedback would be appreciated. Many thanks! :grin:

oldelm

[filmokentucky]

I have one of these and use it with a second gen Colt Baby Dragoon. No problems at all. The .32 S&W is incapable of generating enough recoil to emboss anything, never mind a case hardened steel revolver frame.

   I have used a conversion rig on a '63 Remington for a few years now and 100s of .45 caliber rounds have gone through it with no difficulties or wear. No embossing either.                                                                    
                                                                                                         
   I'd say buy one and enjoy it. It's a well made piece of hardware and well worth the money.

[ribbonstone]

The only problem I had in converting a Uberti 1849 was the bolt.  Percussion cylinder is a 5-shot with deep notches...conversion cylinder is a 6 shot with shallow locking nothces.  Bolt needed to (1) be reshaped slightly for full engagment and (2) a stronger bolt spring...without that, would tend to un-lock itself at firing.

No wear like your description, and I've fired a good number of smokeless factory loads which should have produced it if it were going to happen.

[oldelm]

Hey Kentucky and Ribbonstone,....thanks for your replies which make me feel more optimistic about getting the R&D conversion cylinder.

I found  the reference to the problems in an old post on the Frontier Spot....
http://www.frontierspot.org/viewtopic.php?t=23126&highlight=1849+r+d

I wasn't able to open that  link within the opening post , but  Flint's comments in his reply is what I had seen. Perhaps, kentucky, your Baby Dragoon's frame hardness is due to it's being a 2nd Generation Colt, ...and maybe Uberti's frames  are a bit softer,........just a thought.

Thanks , ribbonstone, for the tip about the bolt shape and its spring strength. I'll definitely attend to that if I get one of these Conversions for my '49. I'm leaning towards giving it a try.

[Flint]

Disagree, filmo, my R&D converters embossed, pretty deeply indeed, not one, but two Uberti guns, a Wells Fargo and a 49 Pocket.  This was done with less than one box of factory Winchester 32 S&W between them.  The guns still function with the cap & ball cylinders, but the barrel/cylinder gap with the conversion cylinders installed has opened up too far to work, and thge wedges won't stay tight on either now.

There is indeed more than enough recoil energy to do this embossing based upon the fact that it happened.  Do note what a small narrow surface the recoil ring represents on the breech face for the cylinder to set back against, as opposed to a Remington type with its flat breech.

A color case hardening is only a few thousanths deep at most, and will have almost no effect on protecting the soft steel beneath it, as it's too thin to not be ductile itself.

Even though this happened a year ago, I think I will discuss the situation again with the folks at R&D.  Taylors, from whom I bought the cylinder didn't understand why it happened, and did sell me at a very good price, the Wells Fargo, which gun the cylinder also proceeded to dent deeply, just as it had the 49er.

[ribbonstone]

Made me get the 1849 and take her apart...but not finding any damage.  Don't doubt that yours did get damaged..can see how that small fingernail of a ring at the hammer slot would not take much abuse...it just hasn't happened to this one (yet).  On a guess, has fired 175-200 rounds of factroy loads and about that many super-lite reloads (1/2 gr. Bullseye and a alox coated round ball).

Bought a S&W I-frame .32SWL and along with it was tossed in a big bag of 575 rounds of mixed .32SW (short)..other wise I doubt I could come up with that many rounds of the stumpy little round.

[filmokentucky]

Flint-I wonder if the difference is in the method used to caseharden the frames? The Colts use the old fashioned bone charcoal casehardening while Italian guns use a chemical style, which I have been told is often more cosmetic than functional. Maybe the Colt method goes deeper? Or is
harder?

[oldelm]

Thanks for your input on this, Flint. Too bad both your guns took some beatin on their recoil rings.

My guess would be that the difference is in the case hardening, and like you suggest, filmo, it's likely that the hardening in the 2nd Generation's frames go deeper. I recently deepened the rear sight groove on the hammer of my Umberti '62 Police, and at first it was very hard, but I soon noticed quite a difference once it cut through the outer hardening. Soft metal under there.

Well, maybe I better not get one of these R&D cylinders for my Umberti '49 after all.  :?
Glad I ran it by ya'all here.... Thanks again for the input.

[Flint]

Could be the difference between "real" color case and the Italian method, as Uberti did supply the frames for the 2nd gen Colts.

I was contemplating removing the recoil ring on a mill and making a new one of 4140 steel and pressing it into the frame, it would be much harder, and spread the recoil load over a greater area, though it would be deep in the softer steel...

[Will52100]

One posibility Flint, is to weld up the breach face on the frame and mill it back true and send it off to R&D for real case harding.  I think it's 60$ for them to do a frame in real bone charcoal.  Might not be feasable or a little expensive as I've no experiance with the 49'  The real case harding can go quite deep, depends on the time at temp, the longer at temp the deeper the carbon percipitates through the soft steel.

[filmokentucky]

You can just send the frame in and they can anneal it and re-caseharden it. Colt received rough forgings from Uberti and they were then machined to Colt specifications. Perhaps the two frames are a little different. I don't have a Uberti to compare with, so I can't be sure. What I find interesting is that my Uberti Remington, which doesn't have a hardened frame, hasn't been battered at all by .45 caliber BP handloads. Go figure.

[Flint]

True. filmo, but notice the Remington breechface is flat, and the rear of the cylinder, or conversion backplate is also flat, and the surface area taking the recoil is much, much larger than the skinny ring on the Colt open-top type.  Even my dead soft Pietta Remingtons have no problem with conversion recoil.

[Drain Rock]

Gentlemen:

The Italian use a fast hot chemical dip method to color their pistol frames, very little labor required and almost no change or improvement to the metal of the frame.  The Second-Generation Colts used a true case hardening method, which requires a lot of handwork and does harden the metal of the frame.

When charcoal case hardening, I’ve found that at least 12-hours of heat in a forge will give a deep hard surface layer of steel to soft iron.  However, deep case hardening will yield very little of the pretty colors, they burn off after about 4-hours.  Charcoal case hardening methods require that the metal be quenched in cold water.  In order to keep a pistol frame from warping, it needs to be fit with steel restraints. With soft steel the quench will over harden the metal, which must be stressed relieved, annealed in an oven.  All this takes labor time, money.  For the short color method the color case hardening is thin, but the steel in the frame has been improved and harden from the heat, quench and annealing process. This is what keeps points of high stress from dinging the recoil shield.

Joe

[Smokin_Gun]

Disagree, filmo, my R&D converters embossed, pretty deeply indeed, not one, but two Uberti guns, a Wells Fargo and a 49 Pocket.  This was done with less than one box of factory Winchester 32 S&W between them.  The guns still function with the cap & ball cylinders, but the barrel/cylinder gap with the conversion cylinders installed has opened up too far to work, and thge wedges won't stay tight on either now.

There is indeed more than enough recoil energy to do this embossing based upon the fact that it happened.  Do note what a small narrow surface the recoil ring represents on the breech face for the cylinder to set back against, as opposed to a Remington type with its flat breech.

A color case hardening is only a few thousanths deep at most, and will have almost no effect on protecting the soft steel beneath it, as it's too thin to not be ductile itself.

Even though this happened a year ago, I think I will discuss the situation again with the folks at R&D.  Taylors, from whom I bought the cylinder didn't understand why it happened, and did sell me at a very good price, the Wells Fargo, which gun the cylinder also proceeded to dent deeply, just as it had the 49er.

Try this it can't hurt anything... Find a local tractor or industrial machinery store. Go in with your ring dimentions, ask for a spacer the depth and diameter of your ring. Cut it out as needed and install using epoxy or liquid steel or solider. It works and was invented for the Brass Reb models so solider would work on them. Same principle though.

[Smokin_Gun]

Could be the difference between "real" color case and the Italian method, as Uberti did supply the frames for the 2nd gen Colts.

I was contemplating removing the recoil ring on a mill and making a new one of 4140 steel and pressing it into the frame, it would be much harder, and spread the recoil load over a greater area, though it would be deep in the softer steel...

Italian method is Cold or color case hardening and it is real hardening.
Colt that were ordered from Uberti and assemble here used Charcoal Hardening or heat tempering. Same metal differant method.

[Smokin_Gun]

You can just send the frame in and they can anneal it and re-caseharden it. Colt received rough forgings from Uberti and they were then machined to Colt specifications. Perhaps the two frames are a little different. I don't have a Uberti to compare with, so I can't be sure. What I find interesting is that my Uberti Remington, which doesn't have a hardened frame, hasn't been battered at all by .45 caliber BP handloads. Go figure.

The small ring is the differance on the Colts it's one of they're weak points compared to the completely flat surface on the frame of the Remingtons. if you look at a 1873 Colt SAA you'll see some simularities to the 1858 Rem. The frame saving spacer I mentioned will take care of that problem. Just attaching it to the steel frame would be the only thing I can't tell you about. I only know it works on Brass frames very well.

[Smokin_Gun]

Oldelm are you in here? Been wonderin what happed to ya  in Voy? Hollar at me ok?