Author Topic: Comparative slug recoil?  (Read 893 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MI.sabot

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
Comparative slug recoil?
« on: May 16, 2005, 04:54:02 AM »
Recoil in the 12 ga. or lack-of-recoil in the 20 ga. always seems to enter into the Ultra Slug Hunter threads.  I recently purchased a 12 ga. USH for myself and a 20 ga. for my son.  We haven't had a chance to shoot either one of them yet.  And as luck would have it, my son fractured and received 12 stitches in his trigger finger last week.  That being the case, it might be some time before we can get to the range. So I'm asking this question rather than testing it for myself.
 
Anyways, let's make this comparison:
 
A 2-3/4" 12 ga Barnes Expander 438 gr slug with a MV of 1450 fps has 1428 lbs of energy at 100 yards.
 
A 3" 20 ga Barnes Expander 260 gr slug with a MV of 1900 fps has 1420 lbs of energy at 100 yards.
 
Since the 20 is a smaller, lighter projectile than the 12, greater velocity is needed to achieve equivalent energy.  Regardless if it is a 12 or a 20, a 1900 fps slug is going to have more kick than a slower slug in the same gauge.
 
This may be difficult to answer unless you have shot both, but: "Is the recoil from a 1900 fps 20 ga. slug any less than the recoil from a 1450 fps 12 ga. slug?"  In other words, has the "reduced recoil" benefit of the 20 ga. been negated by shooting a high velocity slug to achieve the equivalent energy and range of a 12 ga.?
 
Just my opinion, but if the recoil and range is comparable, the nod should go in favor of the 12 ga. over the 20 ga. with a hot load.  The target has been hit with the same amount of energy but the 12 ga. is going to leave behind a much bigger damaging hole than the 20 ga. will.

Appreciate to hear anyone's thoughts.

The debate goes on!
H&R Ultra Slug Hunter (12 ga.)
NEF SS Sidekick Muzzleloader (50 cal.)
Remington 870 Express (12 ga.)
Stevens 311-H SxS (20 ga.)
CZ 452 American (22lr)

Offline Critter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 367
Comparative slug recoil?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2005, 11:37:39 AM »
I think that when you have a buck in the sites you won't notice a difference and neither will he.  
IMHO and just from my observations the 12 ga ussually out performs the 20 on game but not by much if the correct ammo is used.

Offline offhand35

  • Trade Count: (74)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 433
  • Gender: Male
Comparative slug recoil?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2005, 01:19:00 PM »
I have the LEE Shooter program on my DOS system.
One of the things it can do is calculate recoil energy in ft-lbs based on the information you have listed plus the weight of the gun. I'll run it through tonight and post the info here later for you.
It will give numbers that you can use for real  relative comparisions.
Squirrel.......the OTHER dark meat.....!

Offline MI.sabot

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
Comparative slug recoil?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2005, 01:46:23 PM »
OFFHAND:

Thanks, that would be great!

H&R/NEF doesn't list the individual weights of the 12 or the 20 Ultra Slug Hunter.

If you can run the calc with the 12 ga being 10 lbs and the 20 ga being 8 lbs we should be close enough for a realistic comparison.

MI.sabot
H&R Ultra Slug Hunter (12 ga.)
NEF SS Sidekick Muzzleloader (50 cal.)
Remington 870 Express (12 ga.)
Stevens 311-H SxS (20 ga.)
CZ 452 American (22lr)

Offline offhand35

  • Trade Count: (74)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 433
  • Gender: Male
Comparative slug recoil?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2005, 01:54:24 PM »
Well, I still had a few minutes so I ran the data through.
I had to make a couple of presumptions. I presumed the 20ga USH weighs 8#,  being a 20ga bored from a 12ga blank, with the 12ga at 9#, being made a 12ga from a 10ga blank. This from the NEF website stating that the USH weighs 8-9#,  and does not list the 20ga and 12ga separately. they do list the youth model separately as 7#.

I made no attempt to add the weight of a scope.  If you add the same scope and mount to both guns, the relative difference in recoil would remain the same.

For the bullet/slug weight and velocity  data you listed:

12ga: free recoil velocity= 13.0 ft-secs
           free recoil energy = 23.6 ft-lbs

20ga: free recoil velocity = 11.4 ft-secs
          free recoil energy = 16.1 ft-lbs


 The 20 ga has almost 32% less recoil for the loads you plan to use.
The felt difference between 23.6 ft-lbs and 16.1 will FEEL much larger that 32%! :eek:

If you were to base your choice solely on least recoil energy for greatest energy delivery at 100yds, the 20ga would win.
Squirrel.......the OTHER dark meat.....!

Offline offhand35

  • Trade Count: (74)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 433
  • Gender: Male
Comparative slug recoil?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2005, 03:04:13 PM »
OK, with a 10# 12ga gun compared to an 8# 20ga gun, the difference in recoil becomes smaller, but the 12ga USH becomes heavier!!!

10# 12ga USH:
free recoil velocity = 11.7 ft/sec      [note: I made an error in the velocity units earlier, it is ft/sec]
free recoil energy = 21.3 ft-lbs.


This makes the 20ga USH recoil energy  24% less than that of the 12ga.
Still very significant.

The reason I went to a  Tracker II 12ga from a 12ga USH was because of the weight of the gun.
Squirrel.......the OTHER dark meat.....!

Offline MI.sabot

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
Comparative slug recoil?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2005, 03:44:43 PM »
OFFHAND:

Just want to make sure of one thing.

Are these calcs using the 1450 fps slug in the 12 gauge
and the 1900 fps slug in the 20 gauge?

If so, Im a bit surprised by the numbers.  Thought they'd be closer.

Thanks
H&R Ultra Slug Hunter (12 ga.)
NEF SS Sidekick Muzzleloader (50 cal.)
Remington 870 Express (12 ga.)
Stevens 311-H SxS (20 ga.)
CZ 452 American (22lr)

Offline offhand35

  • Trade Count: (74)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 433
  • Gender: Male
Comparative slug recoil?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2005, 04:04:16 PM »
Those are the slug/bullet velocities I used. The reason they are not closer is due to the difference in  bullet weight  The major factors involved are bullet velocity, bullet WEIGHT, and gun weight. Here the weight of the 12ga slug is 438gr as compared to the 20ga slug wt. of 260 gr, a 40% difference.  The weight of the powder in the load is actually considered as well, but I used a ballpark estimate for that as that is a relatively small amount compared to the overall wt. of the slugs.
Squirrel.......the OTHER dark meat.....!

Offline Cookiemann

  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1749
  • Apple Valley, MN
Big Thanks!
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2005, 05:14:00 PM »
Thanks Offhand35.
WOW, that's some program you have there.  That was a quick answer and that is some info you may want to post on the FAQ.  I sure a lot of guys have wondered about that.  I know, I did.  You should run some numbers using custom 12ga slugs like some of the guys load using 20ga slugs in a 12ga shell.  
Anyway, thanks that's cool.
NOT ON MY WATCH

"AIM small...MISS small"

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Comparative slug recoil?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2005, 07:57:34 AM »
Quote
Recoil in the 12 ga. or lack-of-recoil in the 20 ga. always seems to enter into the Ultra Slug Hunter threads. I recently purchased a 12 ga. USH for myself and a 20 ga. for my son. We haven't had a chance to shoot either one of them yet. And as luck would have it, my son fractured and received 12 stitches in his trigger finger last week. That being the case, it might be some time before we can get to the range. So I'm asking this question rather than testing it for myself.

 
 
Gun for gun...the 12 ga...does kick more...but saying which one will have more perceived recoil to a different person really isn't going anywhere...each individuals face is different...and since the body tends to turn away from pain of anytype...the face is usually the first place that does this...and that can wreck havoc on accuracy...How the stock fits  to that  individual is of upmost importance...be it an adult...or a child......this is the reason trap skeet and sporting clays shooters go to great lenghts to get a stock fitted to them. a properly fitted gun...is soooo much more enjoyable to shoot...and you can shoot it more accuratly.. so...no matter which slug gun you use...it needs to be fitted properly...and made so that it won't slap yours or your sons face when shooting it...
 
I've shot both models now...and for me...the 12 ga with a fitted soft comb... certainly isn't like shooting a 22 rimfire... but it wasn't unpleasant either...the 20 ga...felt practically the same...the 12 ga fitted with a 2x7x33 scope and steel rings...is...heavy...a-lot heavier than the 20 ga outfitted the same way...and if I new for certain that I wouldn't be shooting over 100 yards...I would use a 20 ga with the new slugs...but...where I would hunt with either of them...my shots could be much longer... so I would opt for the 12ga...
 
I did notice on the 20 ga...it has a very shape edge on the trigger itself...and you might want to hone that edge down for him if his is like that...enlite of his fracture and stitches...and.... put a soft type comb on the gun...you can get these thru any of the on-line stores or at your local trap and skeet clubs they are usually a self sticking type...if you can't find them...I use a Uncle Mikes neoprene shell holder...with some rubatex insulating pipe foam under that...since using these...I no-longer get my face and cheek pounded. when I snug my cheek into the stock..and I can concentrate more on the target than having to sub-contiously worry about the recoil and face pain...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline chris s

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 74
Comparative slug recoil?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2005, 04:22:27 AM »
After reading several posts- would it be safe to say that if shots are going to be no more than 100yds a 20 is good but for over 100 yds go with the 12?

Offline MI.sabot

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
Comparative slug recoil?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2005, 06:31:12 AM »
Chris S:

Assuming that 1,000 #s of energy is needed to bring down a whitetail, the top end high velocity (1,900 fps) 20 gauge sabots still have enough to do the job at 125 yds.

Unless I were using a 1,900 fps round, I would limit shots to 75 yds with a 20 gauge.

I think your comment  of > 100 yds = 12 ga and < 100 yds = 20 ga is a reasonable.  But be aware that not all 20 gauge sabots are alike!
H&R Ultra Slug Hunter (12 ga.)
NEF SS Sidekick Muzzleloader (50 cal.)
Remington 870 Express (12 ga.)
Stevens 311-H SxS (20 ga.)
CZ 452 American (22lr)

Offline Chainsaw

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Comparative slug recoil?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2005, 03:35:13 PM »
Mi. Sabot, I have some experience with both a 12ga.USH and the 20 ga. TrackerII. I have fitted 3 different Tracker II's with a scope rail and have low power variable scopes on these. I am currently doing a fourth. My first experience was with the 12ga.USH. I found it to be a heavy kicker when shooting from an elevated stand free hand or from the bench. It did the job,but too me, was like using a boat anchor, accurate yes, but too darn heavy.

I then purchased a 20 ga. Tracker II and scoped it. This was the ticket in my book. For my wifes use, we load the Tracker II with Federal Hydra-Shok 3" which have fairly mild recoil. In my Tracker II I use the Winchester Partition Gold. With the Winchester PG's I took a whitetail at 142 yards. I did this to qualify the last day and hour of our Earn-A-Buck season here in Cheeseville. I would not normally try this otherwise but it dropped the 127lb. doe on the spot with a front shoulder shot. Along with less recoil, I think the lighter Tracker II 20 ga. is just easier to shoot free hand from an elevated stand and is no slouch either from the bench. The accuracy with the Tracker II's is on par with the USH from my findings.

Just My Opinion for what it is worth..........Chainsaw

Offline MI.sabot

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
Comparative slug recoil?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2005, 02:35:09 AM »
Chainsaw:

The 12 ga USH is without a doubt a heavy gun.  No argument there.  I can't even imagine trying to shoot that free hand.

But can I ask what you were shooting out of it to give the kick?


Chris S:

If your still following this thread, Chainsaw droppped that doe at 142 yds with one of the 1,900 fps I was referring to!
H&R Ultra Slug Hunter (12 ga.)
NEF SS Sidekick Muzzleloader (50 cal.)
Remington 870 Express (12 ga.)
Stevens 311-H SxS (20 ga.)
CZ 452 American (22lr)

Offline Chainsaw

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Comparative slug recoil?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2005, 02:56:20 PM »
MI.Sabot wrote, But can I ask what you were shooting out of it to give the kick?


I was using Federals if I remember right. At the time I think it was the only one Federal made. That was in '96 and '97.

Don't get me wrong here the Tracker II 20ga. with the Winchester Partition Gold Sabots is no trip to the beach to shoot, recoil wise either. The Winnies pack one heckuva wallop when you light one off. The Federal Hydra-Shok is relatively mild in comparison.............Chainsaw