Author Topic: 64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?  (Read 1579 times)

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Offline Muddy05

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« on: May 18, 2005, 02:53:59 AM »
Im looking at a .223 rem. handi-rifle, but want to know how they group with the 64 gr. power points before i buy it. Never had a .223 and dont know much about them. Thanks!
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Offline oneshotonekill

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2005, 03:29:05 AM »
Mine didn't like the 64gr power points at all.  In fact it didn't do very well with anything I tried over 55gr.  Your luck may be different and you may get one that does well with the heavier bullets but the twist rate in these barrels is about right for 40-55 gr not the heavier stuff.

Offline Deadeye47

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2005, 04:10:08 AM »
The general consensus on this forum is as oneshotonekill stated...although I shot some 62 grain Wolf ammo in mine and it shot pretty good but not near as good as the lighter bullets.... also....welcome to the forum!!!  :wink:
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Offline Longcruise

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2005, 10:43:01 AM »
Quote
Im looking at a .223 rem. handi-rifle, but want to know how they group with the 64 gr. power points before i buy it. Never had a .223 and dont know much about them. Thanks


Don't hesitate to give them a try.  Mine shot 62 and 60 grainers as well as most other weights.  If you were to order a match grade rifle from some of the premier match rifle builders in the country designed to shoot match bullets in the heavier weights you might find them recommending a 1/14 twist barrel :shock:   I think in the case of the Handi's it's more a barrel quality factor than twist rate factor.

Offline Muddy05

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2005, 10:54:46 AM »
This is a really great site for newcomers. I've got a few handi's but I want another one. Thanks for your help!
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Offline quickdtoo

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2005, 11:38:36 AM »
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Offline varmitbob

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2005, 04:00:38 PM »
for optimal repeatable accuracy, 55 gr and below are what to use in a 1/14 twist barrel.  The 62 grain bullets are longer, and require a faster twist to stabilize them.

Offline quickdtoo

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2005, 04:02:50 PM »
Quote from: varmitbob
for optimal repeatable accuracy, 55 gr and below are what to use in a 1/14 twist barrel.  The 62 grain bullets are longer, and require a faster twist to stabilize them.


H&R uses a 1 in 12" twist rate in their .223 Rem barrels.
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Offline varmitbob

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2005, 04:13:17 PM »
I would stay with the 55gr.  The 62 gr is for a 1/9 twist and faster. 70 gr and above should have a 1/7 twist.  Not to say that you can not shot these rounds with some accuracy, just that they are not optimal for that twist rate.

Offline quickdtoo

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2005, 04:31:35 PM »
The 63gr sierra is said to be a good shooter in the Handi for those that want a heavier bullet....

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=609136
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Offline handirifle

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2005, 07:10:57 PM »
Man, can you imagine the friction in a 1 in 7 rate barrel? :shock:
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Offline warf73

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2005, 09:22:40 PM »
I'm new to the Handy scene, but my H&R states in the owners manual that the rifle is ment for 55gr bullets and lighter.

But you can always give them a try.

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2005, 01:15:40 AM »
lik2hunt------>in OK





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Offline Muddy05

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2005, 02:40:46 AM »
Thanks again for all your help! :idea3:  I think I'll just buy the darn thing and try it for myself!!!   Is $220 a good price for standard handi-rifle??? not bull barrell. wood stock.
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Offline quickdtoo

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2005, 05:52:25 AM »
$220 for a new Handi is a little high, they sell for $190-$200 here and at Walmart. I paid $240 new for my 24" Ultra at Sportsmans Warehouse a year ago.
You can order one from Walmart for $188...

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3138417&cat=170119&type=1&dept=4125&path=0%3A4125%3A4155%3A170080%3A170118%3A170119
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Offline Longcruise

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2005, 06:36:05 AM »
Quote
Is $220 a good price for standard handi-rifle??? not bull barrell. wood stock.


I wrestled with ordering from Wal mart for a week and then gladly paid my local guy 220 for one.  He had it in 3 days.  Wal mart was still trying to get it ordered :(

Offline quickdtoo

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2005, 06:49:07 AM »
Quote from: Longcruise
Quote
Is $220 a good price for standard handi-rifle??? not bull barrell. wood stock.


I wrestled with ordering from Wal mart for a week and then gladly paid my local guy 220 for one.  He had it in 3 days.  Wal mart was still trying to get it ordered :(


That's because Sports South, Walmart's Supplier, is/was out of em....I just checked their inventory, they have all versions except the wood stocked 22" bull barrel that I posted in the link above and the Fluted Ultra...An available alternative would be the synthetic stocked standard barrel which is in stock...or for $22 more, a 24" bull barreled Ultra...

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3138383&cat=170092&type=1&dept=4125&path=0%3A4125%3A4155%3A170080%3A170091%3A170092

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3138447&cat=170119&type=1&dept=4125&path=0%3A4125%3A4155%3A170080%3A170118%3A170119

http://www.internetguncatalog.com/results.asp
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Offline Longcruise

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2005, 06:58:00 AM »
They may or may not have been out of them.  I never got to the point where the staff could figure out who was the person whose responsibility it was to even place the order :shock:   The difference was about $30!  Not worth my time or effort when my local guy could just pick up the phone and order it and have it three days later.  Heck, for all I know my guy may have gotten it from Sportsouth!! :eek:

In regard to this barrel twist thing, we talk about it a lot on this forum and in fact we all pretty much regurgitate the same thing over and over regarding the 1/12 rate and the bullets it will stabilize.  And, yes, I know what the nef owners manual says :grin:

Here is a link to a barrel makers site showing the range of useful twist rates in .223 barrels and the most "popular" twists rates ordered.

http://www.pac-nor.com/barrels/

I looked for another reference but was not able to find it from a noted match grade barrel maker who recommends 1/14 for .223 match rifles (not mouse guns).  I'll see if I can find it later.

Offline quickdtoo

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2005, 07:18:44 AM »
Maybe the real reason our Handi barrels don't shoot the heavier bullets isn't the twist rate so much as it is the bores are on the large size of specs for a .224 bore. I slugged mine, it was within spec but on the high side, don't remember what exactly it was now, though... :oops:
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Offline MtJerry

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2005, 08:19:07 AM »
Here are the loads that have been the best for my .223 Handi. Notice that all of them are based on IMR 4895 powder.

40gr. Hornady V-MAX
CCI 400
26.0gr. IMR 4895 Best group was .610
Winchester Brass
COL 2.200

55gr. Hornady SP
CCI 400
25.4gr. IMR 4895 Best group was .444
Winchester Brass
COL 2.200

63gr. Sierra SP
CCI 400
23.9gr. IMR 4895 Best group was .910
Winchester Brass
COL 2.250

I hope this is helpful to someone .....
:D

Offline Longcruise

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2005, 08:42:07 AM »
Quote
Maybe the real reason our Handi barrels don't shoot the heavier bullets isn't the twist rate so much as it is the bores are on the large size of specs for a .224 bore


I think you are right on!

Also, there is more to this stability thing than simply weight of the bullet.  Here are some bullet lengths and weights.  Notice that heavier is not always longer and it is actually bullet length, not weight that is the big factor in stability:

Horn 50 gr Vmax  length:   .780
Horn 60 gr SP      length:    .740
Sierra 60 gr HP    length:    .860

The longer Sierras shot as well for me as any other bullet I reloaded :?

Offline varmitbob

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2005, 06:58:13 PM »
The better the bullet is, and the closer the center of mass of the bullet is to the lands center, the twist rate should be faster for better accuracy. The OAL of round with the longer bullets may be placing you closer to the lands.  If you load to the same OAL for the lighter bullets, you will find that any caliber is more accurate as long as you have enough bullet to seat in the neck. 2.545 is the OAL I use on for .223 rounds in my AR, which places it approx 0.15 off the lands.  I do not know what the needed length for a handi is, but this can definitely effect accuracy.  Also the gyroscopic stability factor, Sg.  Shorter bullets typically have a lower Sg because they have a lower moment of inertia ratio.  The Iy/Ix ratio is driven by the length of the axis of the bullet (Iy) when comparing the same caliber with the same weapon since the axis of the weapon (Ix) will be unchanged.  Your success with the longer bullet could be affected by the OAL issue or the Sg factor of a better bullet.  As far as the length vs. weight issue take a look at info from Sierra.  Also I attached some info from Military Studies on twist rates and 5.56mm.
   This is very interesting to me, what is the OAL of each of these rounds, maybe the OAL can compensate for the lack of twist, or maybe it is the quality of the bullet?


APPROXIMATE GYROSCOPIC STABILITY OF TYPICAL RIFLE AMMUNITION
(Calculations based on Army data)
*Values estimated for twist rate implied by Greenhill; S=gyroscopic stability factor 1.5-2.0 optimum


5.56mm M193, 55-gr. FMJ BT, velocity 3200 f.p.s. (MI6AI/A2 with 20” bbi.)
14” twist      12” twist      10” twist*      7” twist
S=1.0      S=1.4      S=2.0      S = 4.1
MARGINAL   (M16A1)      (Mini-14)      (M16A2)
(XM16)      V=3080            USMC

5.56 mm NATO M855/SS1O9, 62-gr. FMJ BT, velocity 3050 l.p.s. (M16A1/A2 with 20” bbl.)
12” twist      10” twist      81/4” twist*   7” twist
S=0.85      S=1.2      S=1.8      S = 2.5
UNSTABLE   MARGINAL         (NATO Std.)
(Ml 6A1)      (Mini-14)            M16A2




Stabilizing High B.C. Bullets

07.16.2003

Q:   Are bullets with a higher ballistic coefficient more difficult to stabilize?

A:   Presuming that you are asking about bullets in a specific caliber, like .224, .264, .308, etc, compared to bullets of lower ballistic coefficients in the same caliber. And the answer is generally yes. If the caliber is given, there are just three ways to make the ballistic coefficient higher. One is to increase the weight of the bullet. Another is to make a sharper but longer point on the bullet. And, if the bullet does not have a boat tail, that can be added to reduce tail drag.) Of course, these methods can be and are used together to manufacture bullets with high ballistic efficiency.

There are many factors which affect the stabilization of a bullet. Some of these have to do with the mass properties and geometrical properties of the bullet design. Others have to do with aerodynamic properties and spin rate of the bullet. From the science of advanced dynamics we know that there is a limit to the ratio of the transverse moment of inertia to the polar moment of inertia of any spin-stabilized rotationally symmetrical body, such that beyond this limit the body is at best marginally stable and easily destabilized by small disturbances during flight (such as a small gust of wind). This in turn sets a practical limit to the length of the bullet compared to its diameter, and hence to the weight of the bullet, since if the diameter cannot change, weight cannot increase unless the bullet becomes longer. This isn't a hard limit, but a practical rule of thumb is to worry about stability if the bullet length is more than about 5 calibers.

We also know that when the separation between the center of mass and the center of aerodynamic pressure (which is forward of the center of mass) becomes larger, the bullet becomes more susceptible to aerodynamic disturbances, making it harder to stabilize. This happens when bullet points get longer. It especially affects "low drag" bullet designs.

A bullet is stabilized by spinning it, and higher spin rates are required for heavier bullets with longer points (and higher ballistic coefficients). This is reflected in the barrel twist rate recommendations for certain bullets in Sierra's line. These bullets all have very high ballistic coefficients compared to lighter and more blunt bullets in their calibers.

One of the best practical references on the subject of spin stabilization is an article that is now over 40 years old. This article is, "Truth about Twist" by John Maynard in the 16th edition (1962) of the Gun Digest, and reprinted in the Gun Digest Treasury published in 1966. There is also an excellent and complete treatment of this subject in Modern Exterior Ballistics by Robert L. McCoy, but it is highly mathematical.

Bill McDonald

Offline Longcruise

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2005, 07:43:21 PM »
Quote
This isn't a hard limit, but a practical rule of thumb is to worry about stability if the bullet length is more than about 5 calibers.


Seems like a rather broad brush statement considering that our .223's should therefore be able to spit out bullets over 1.10 inch and rate of spin is not considered under the 5 caliber rule?

Here is another good reference on bullet stability.  Also loaded with math but if read over 5 or 6 times there is something to be understood via intuition.  Somehting highly regarded by the math challenged like myself :)

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/

Offline Mac11700

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64gr. winnies in a .223 handi-rifle?
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2005, 08:41:42 PM »
I don't own a 223 Handi...but I do own several other calibers...and they all shoot good...so...this isn't based on any mathematics...or fancy formula's...but on what I know is a problem with a-lot of our rifles...and that is the amount of Leade...our chambers have...several of our rifles...(all calibers ) have up to and some over 1/2" freebore...and on top of that...a-lot of our chambers are not in coaxial aliment with the rifling. I've experienced this my self.....now...some of these will shoot good...but a-lot of them won't ...now...while shooting most factory loads...they have a bullet  run out of about .002" to .009" out of alignment from the get go...and with some folks reloading  set up...their handloads produce .014" and higher run out...it's no wonder they won't stabilize certain bullets.....
 
So my advice on this is...to make the most concentric ammo you can...and just try different bullets in your rifle and see how they shoot...after all is said and done...you just might find a paticular accurate bullet that supposedly isn't supposed to be accurate with the 1 in 12 twist......especially when shooting over 300 yards...because sometimes it takes shooting past 100 yards to have it settle down...

Mac
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