Best dies for 40-65 WCF?

[leverfan]

I have taught myself a lot of lessons in false economy, and buying inexpensive Lee dies for my 40-65 may be one of them.  When I try to reform 45-70 brass into 40-65, the Lee dies leave the body of the case an average of .02" bigger than Starline factory 40-65 brass at three different reference points (.6", .8", and 1.0" from the rim).  The Lee dies size the neck fine, and push the shoulder back far enough, but the wide-bodied brass won't quite chamber in my rifle.  Lee hasn't answered my email to resolve the issue, so I'll be calling them soon, to see if they're willing to make a die for me that reduces the body diameter of the brass enough to chamber.

For those of you experienced with the 40-65, can anyone tell me a brand of dies that reduces 45-70 down to 40-65 with just one pass through the full length resizing die?  Dedicated form and trim dies are a little too pricey for me, but I've got a lot of 45-70 brass to reform.

Thanks

[arnie19]

Where is the brass hitting in the chamber .If its just forward of the rim then maybe its not the dies but a tight chamber .A cure for this is to grind about .125 to .250 off the bottom of the die or get a die from RCBS that is made for the tighter chamber such as the Ron Long chamber or maybe even the Shiloh chamber .A trick i learned when forming a bunch of 35/40 Maynard out of 38/55 brass was to use a turret press like the Lee 3 hole or 4 hole press use a full lenght die that is threaded for the decaping pin and take the pin out .Push the case into the die as far as  it will go ,then rotate the turret so the case is out of the shell holder ,then turn the turret back to center after lowering the ram a little and then push the case back up into the die all the way.This will  sqeeze the area just ahead of the rim .Now with the decapping rod minus the pin ,screw it down to force the case back out of the die enough to catch it again with the shell holder and pull it out .I found that using thinned out Lanolin that most of the cases pop out slowly enough to catch them with the shell holder with out using the decaping rod to push them out .Arnie

[leverfan]

The brass is hitting the chamber from a short distance away from the case head all the way up to the shoulder.  It is visibly larger in diameter along the entire body length, as compared to Starline brass.  If I were to push it any further into the die, I would succeed only in pushing the miniscule shoulder back a bit further, and increasing the neck length.  It's not a matter of a few thousandths over correct diameter, it's two hundredths.  Starline chambers just fine, and I'm currently using that.  If it were to expand much in body diameter, the Lee die wouldn't help at all.  It simply doesn't taper enough, not until you get right up to the neck of the case.

The area of the brass that rubs the chamber was confirmed by inking the brass and pushing it as far into the chamber as it could go.  

I might try Redding, rcbs, or Lyman for a resizing die next, rather than grinding down what I've got, or ordering anything exotic.

Arnie, your grinding suggestion is what worked for me with a minimum chambered Remington that I own, but I don't think it'll help here.  The Lee die is the problem, not the chamber.

P.S.
I just got off the phone with Dave at Lee.  He stated simply that the Lee dies aren't made for reforming brass, although other brands of resizing dies may work for reforming.  He said that the Lee makes dies to resize after firing factory brass, and the amount of "springback" in the brass was making the cases too large to chamber.  In other words, go buy something different if you don't like what we sold you.  I still believe that 40-65 dies should be capable of reforming 45-70 brass, since that's what most folks will want to be able to do with them, but that's just me.

Dave's explanation about brass spring back rang a little hollow for me, since the Lee dies are .02" too large, not just .002".  These dies may not work for any case that needs more than just neck sizing.

[anthony]

I was under the impression that if you wanted to form 40-65 from 45-70 you would need "form and trim dies", I have 40-65 dies from Lyman and they will not reform 45-70 without creasing the cases. The dies you bought are not for reforming, they only are for resizing. You will ether need to buy reforming dies or just buy 40-65 brass, it's not that expensive.

[bumble]

I form my 40-65 brass from 45-70 W-W brass using Lyman reloading dies. I can't do this in one pass. It usually takes 3 passes. The lube and it's placement are a major aspect of doing it without lube dents. The only lube I'VE used that works is Imperial Sizing Wax. There must be others; I haven't used them. I don't care for Starline in forming as it's much harder to work with in comparasion to W-W or R-P. Your creasing is the result of too much  lube. I have formed .33 Winchester cases from 45-70 cases and there again it's the type of lube and it placement that makes a big difference. RCBS case lube doesn't have the vescosity you need. I'm not the best teacher in this format, but I can help you better understand where your problem lies. Luck

[leverfan]

"The 40-65 has several factors in its favor; forming brass requires little more than running ever plentiful 45-70 Springfield cases through a full-length sizing die."-Lyman, 48th Ed. Reloading Handbook

Ken Waters made the same optimistic prediction.  I haven't found this approach works with my brass/rifle/die combination, but based on reading things like what you see above, I sure had my hopes up.  Live and learn.

None of my cases showed signs of creasing, and multiple passes into two different brands of 40-65 dies fell just short of reducing case size enough to chamber.  It's no big deal, as Starline 40-65 brass works just fine.  The price of forming dies seems a little too high to justify buying them for my needs.

Thanks to everyone that took the time to offer suggestions.

[ShortStake]

Gents and Madams,

My rifle of choice is a Browning BPCR Model in caliber .40-65.

Forming brass to fit this rifle from .45-70 (R-P) in one motion of the RCBS Rock Chucker handle proves to be a major task.  Having both RCBS and Lyman Full Length die sets available does not make the task any less difficult.

My preferred method of forming .45-70 (R-P) to .40-65 is to accomplish the feat in three separate motions utilizing straight lanolin.  First the Full Length Sizing Die is adjusted to bottom out on the Rock Chucker ram/shell holder.  Three incrementally different "stops" in the die adjustment are accomplished by using a stack of various size washers under the adjusted Full Length sizing die.  Each .45-70 case is lubed with lanolin and passed upward  thru the Full Lenth sizng die until it stops.  Use your fingers to again spread the lanolin thoroughly on th partially sized case before continuation of the second and third stages of the process. Reduce the thickness of the washer stack and repeat the sizing step(s) until the desired amount of case diameter reduction is accomplished.

The desired amount of case reduction is determined by "WHEN" the downsized case will chamber in your rifle.  This "WHEN" may well be BEFORE the ram/shellholder bottom out on the Full Length Sizing die.

TOO MUCH lanolin WILL dent the cases.  Sparingly is the method.  After trying various case lubes; RCBS, STP, Hornady One Shot and Sizing Die Wax, I've settled on straight lanolin because it does a much better job of sizing cases.  "Much better" meaning less resistance and much easier movement of the RCBS Rock Chucker's handle.

This method is utilized to accomplish each step on 50 to 100 cases at a time.

Yes, it does take more time and effort.  Qualtiy costs money and time is money!.

[bumble]

Leverfan- Is there any chance you forgot to check overall length after you formed? It was something that got me once, just a thought.

[leverfan]

Multiple trimmings were performed during the reforming attempts.  The cases were growing almost as fast as my kids, so I kept putting them on my Lyman trimmer.  I have, over the course of my reloading experience, screwed up in most of the usual ways, so I was sure to check all of them.

I even tried running a case into the die by setting it on top of the shell holder, rather than in it.  This was done with the decapping stem removed, and the case was run all the way into the die.  Then, I knocked the case back out with a wooden dowel.  You can't squeeze 'em down any more than that without altering your dies.  It was still a no-go in my rifle.  

I'd blame the rifle, but factory brass fits fine.  The difference is in how far away from the rim the body begins to taper.  Starline 40-65 brass begins to taper very sharply a very short distance away from the rim.  My dies cannot duplicate this with reformed 45-70 brass, but my particular rifle's chamber seems to require it.  Life is too short to struggle any further with the reforming of 45-70 brass for my rifle when perfectly acceptable new 40-65 brass can be had for a good price.