Author Topic: Caliber Dilemma (Read 1695 times)

oldtramrambler · « **on:** May 23, 2005, 12:35:17 AM »

I'd like to get a rifle for predator hunting this fall. I've already got a 12 ga. and some No. 4 buckshot. Where I will hunt, the timber is thick and my shots would be short (under 50 yards mostly). I am primarily interested in red fox and bobcat. If a coyote presented a shot, I could let him walk if the range or angle were not good. I'm very intersested in saving the hides, so pelt damage is a major concern. My two main choices for consideration are .223 and .22 Magnum. Can anyone help me with this decision?
I'm hoping to get one or the other soon so I can be proficient with it by the time season rolls around.
By the way, I've got a .22LR, but I doubt that's sufficient for what I'm wanting to do.
Thanks, OTR

PA-Joe · « **Reply #1 on:** May 23, 2005, 01:42:53 AM »

If you reload you can soft load the 223 down to 22 mag levels or the 22 hornet levels. You can also load full strength. In close cover think about a Rem Model 7 in 223.

Qaz · « **Reply #2 on:** May 23, 2005, 02:33:12 AM »

At 50yds or less, I would just save my money and stick to the shot gun and a 22lr. If you can't kill a fox or a coyote at 50yds with a 22lr using Winchester Power points, you won't do any better with a 223!

Lawdog · « **Reply #3 on:** May 23, 2005, 09:27:22 AM »

oldtramrambler,

If you are planning on saving hides then stay away from the Shotgun loaded with buckshot. As you can imagine the price goes down with the more holes in the hide. Also the .22lr isnt that well suited for coyotes and such when the range marker goes over 50 yards. A good .22 Hornet is about as pelt friendly as you can find. Quiet report(doesnt have the bark of a .223 Rem., etc.), extremely accurate and when it comes to reloading its a dream. This is our number 1 calling cartridge. Lawdog

Catfish · « **Reply #4 on:** May 23, 2005, 01:46:13 PM »

If your going to hide hunt the only round on the market is the .17 Rem. For the ranges your talking the .17 Ackley Hornet would be a better choice, but unless your a very experianced reloader and wildcatter I would not recomand it as it can go over presure very fast. The new .204 ruger is another good choice, but might leave some big hole in fox. The .223 with a very slow twist and some 35 gn. bullets would be my third choice. Forth would be a .22 Hornet, but on coyotes past 150 yrds. would be pushing it, 50 yrds. it would be great.

oso45-70 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 23, 2005, 09:01:40 PM »

O_T_R

The 22 hornet is by far the best calling rifle you can get, Pelt friendly Quite and accurate. The little 77-22 hornet is all the gun you need. Good luck calling...........Joe...........

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 24, 2005, 09:20:39 AM »

I would go with the 17 HMR for close range fox/bobcat work. Under 125 yards I don't think that there is a better fox gun. I have used it quite successfully on our big northern fox here in alaska with practically no pelt damage.

trotterlg · « **Reply #7 on:** May 24, 2005, 06:08:36 PM »

Catfish knows, a light bullet in .223 and slow twist barrel will do a great job. I have a 22-250 with a 26 inch 1 in 17 barrel and it works great with 30 and 40gr bullets, gains you about 100fps velocity also, crono's out at 4,360 fps. Larry

Swift One · « **Reply #8 on:** June 02, 2005, 08:52:39 AM »

I would say a 22 Hornet or a 17HMR. If you are a reloader then go with the Hornet. Both are excellent rounds for fox and Bobcat. Both rounds will take a yote with proper shot placement at the distances that you are hunting.

I would say (but have not personally experienced it) that a 223 might tear your fox pelt up pretty good. But I have never shot a fox with mine so I would not know for sure.

oso45-70 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 03, 2005, 12:53:24 PM »

Larry,
Trotterlg, 4,360 fps, Ain't that a little rough on pelts. I know that a smaller bullet doesn't exit as bad as a larger one but if you dont hit a bone will it not be more likely to blow the exit side wide open, There by makeing the pelt worthess. I would just like to know what your opinion is.
Have a good day........Joe...........

Lawdog · « **Reply #10 on:** June 04, 2005, 08:51:50 AM »

Quote from: Swift One

I would say a 22 Hornet or a 17HMR. If you are a reloader then go with the Hornet. Both are excellent rounds for fox and Bobcat. Both rounds will take a yote with proper shot placement at the distances that you are hunting.

I would say (but have not personally experienced it) that a 223 might tear your fox pelt up pretty good. But I have never shot a fox with mine so I would not know for sure.

I have a .223 Remington and take my word for it if you use 35 - 40 gr. bullets at velocities around 4,000 fps. you are NOT going to be selling many hides(Fox or otherwise). Lawdog

trotterlg · « **Reply #11 on:** June 04, 2005, 04:50:23 PM »

Joe: I only have one Coyote with this rifle, no blow up with it at all. May have something to do with the bullet spinning fairly slow, a 1 in 17 twist is about half as fast as some of the .223's. My other 22-250 with a 1 in 14 barrel would sometimes have a blow up, but they wern't all that bad. I haven't tried any fast twist barrels in .224, so I can't tell you how they work. I do know that the bullet stores a lot of energy spinning, my 17 twist barrel gets about 125fps more than my 14 twist barrel does. Nothing is free however, I can't shoot anything heavier than 40gr in the 17 twist rifle. I may get to shoot a few more next weekend, may have to take some pictures to see what you think. I nearly never get any exit at all. Larry

poncaguy · « **Reply #12 on:** June 08, 2005, 02:09:33 PM »

22 Hornet.........in a Handi rifle

TNred · « **Reply #13 on:** June 08, 2005, 02:45:23 PM »

Got a question for you guys. I'm a coyote hunter. I don't care about pelts. I've always used a .243 Handi.

What I do care about, a lot, is putting them down quickly so they don't suffer. Never could stand to watch an animal suffer.

Anyway, I've been thinking about picking up a new Handi for fun, in either .22 Hornet or .223.

Do either or both these calibers pack enough punch to decisively put down a coyote out to 150 yards, even if I miss the kill zone slightly? The .243 with 100 grain bullets sure will, and that's why I've always loved it.

aulrich · « **Reply #14 on:** June 08, 2005, 02:56:49 PM »

TNred

I am not sure where you are located but if you are in the US you could send in your current handi action and have a 22 hornet barrel fitted for relitively cheap (~100 ish). http://www.hr1871.com/barrelAcc/index.htm

oso45-70 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 08, 2005, 04:17:51 PM »

TNred,

If you are not interested in the pelts and take longer shots you should stick with your 243 win. In order to use the hornet you do need to bring them a little closer in order to get a fast, clean shot. The speed of your bullet determins the amount of destruction you can expect, Plus the weight of your bullet also plays a big part in how much destruction you will have. A heavier bullet going slower will have less destructive effect because it will exit the animal with out blowing up as bad..For calling a coyote up close i like a hornet, But like you said you will have to place your shot in a vital area or you will probably just wound him and have to walk him down. But all this is mute if you don't save the hides. I feel a great amount of joy when i can bring one in and make a good shot on any critter and have him fall in his tracks. Sounds like they are all males HUH. All this being said you will probably be just as well off with your 243........Joe.......

trotterlg · « **Reply #16 on:** June 08, 2005, 05:43:15 PM »

A .223 will kill a Coyote as far away as you can hit him properly. You are talking about a 25 to 30 pound animal, your .243 will kill an elk, no wonder it puts down a Coyote. Larry

Lawdog · « **Reply #17 on:** June 09, 2005, 10:24:14 AM »

Quote from: TNred

Got a question for you guys. I'm a coyote hunter. I don't care about pelts. I've always used a .243 Handi.

What I do care about, a lot, is putting them down quickly so they don't suffer. Never could stand to watch an animal suffer.

Anyway, I've been thinking about picking up a new Handi for fun, in either .22 Hornet or .223.

Do either or both these calibers pack enough punch to decisively put down a coyote out to 150 yards, even if I miss the kill zone slightly? The .243 with 100 grain bullets sure will, and that's why I've always loved it.

I take Coyotes at 150 plus yards all the time with my .22 Hornet. Put the proper bullet where it belongs and the Coyote is dead meat. It just doesn't ruin pelts like bigger, faster calibers do. At $40 plus a pelt)depending on prices) that ain't too shabby. Lawdog

oldtramrambler · « **Reply #18 on:** June 11, 2005, 01:10:17 AM »

Thanks to all who have given me their input. I've about decided to go with the .223 and learn to handload it to lower levels as PA-joe suggested. I'll probably go with the NEF Handi-rifle which has a 1 in 12 twist.

Now I have one more question: If I load to 22 hornet levels will that barrel work OK, or would I be better off getting a second barrel in 22 Hornet? I'd really prefer to go the reloading route to save money on ammo, and I've read that the .223 is easier to reload for.

Thanks for all your help. This is a great place for a new guy to learn the ropes.

trotterlg · « **Reply #19 on:** June 11, 2005, 05:44:23 AM »

I doubt you can load for a .223 cheaper than you can buy new ammo for. Loading for a hornet or .223 should be about the same, after you get the hornet brass. Larry

Lawdog · « **Reply #20 on:** June 11, 2005, 10:00:58 AM »

Quote from: oldtramrambler

Thanks to all who have given me their input. I've about decided to go with the .223 and learn to handload it to lower levels as PA-joe suggested. I'll probably go with the NEF Handi-rifle which has a 1 in 12 twist.

Now I have one more question: If I load to 22 hornet levels will that barrel work OK, or would I be better off getting a second barrel in 22 Hornet? I'd really prefer to go the reloading route to save money on ammo, and I've read that the .223 is easier to reload for.

Thanks for all your help. This is a great place for a new guy to learn the ropes.

I own, shoot and load for both the .22 Hornet and the .223 Remington(as well as other .224 centerfire cartridges). My only problem with down loading the .223 Remington is at a certain point accuracy starts to suffer. And as for ease of loading, I can't think of any easier cartridge to load for than the .22 Hornet. A 1 pound can of powder seems to last forever when one is using less than 15 gr. of powder per load. Brass is easy to find/get and is about as cheap as you could ask for. A barrel with a 1-12 twist is designed to handle bullets up to 60 gr. with the best accuracy coming from those in the 50 gr. class. Lawdog

Buckskin · « **Reply #21 on:** June 13, 2005, 09:28:29 AM »

TNred,

Stick with what you got. Your other choices will not do any better with a missed kill zone. We shoot quite a few yotes during the deer season during drives and all are running shots. It is amazing what a yote will take and keep going. We are in a shotgun only zone and a 1 ounce chunk of lead can leave a devistating hole in a yote. I have seen many go for several hundred yards on no more than 2 legs. Rear, front, one on each side - it doesn't matter. They are tough buggers for their size. One of the quickest kills Ive ever seen was with my bow 2 years ago. Shot him trotting at 30 yards and he was dead in 20. The only shot Ive ever gotten on a yote with my bow. I would have had no chance without the light rain.

Swift One · « **Reply #22 on:** June 16, 2005, 04:02:03 PM »

Quote

I have a .223 Remington and take my word for it if you use 35 - 40 gr. bullets at velocities around 4,000 fps. you are NOT going to be selling many hides(Fox or otherwise). Lawdog

That is why I use a 55gr Blitzking that flies at around 2850-3000FPS. :wink: I shoot coons with this round and get minimal pelt damage if any at all. Even that 4000FPS round is going to do OK on Yotes if you do not hit bone. Fox and on the other hand are probably going to be a little on the torn side.

Lawdog · « **Reply #23 on:** June 17, 2005, 08:52:23 AM »

Swift One,

Quote

if you do not hit bone.

That's the problem. :-D :-D Lawdog

Swift One · « **Reply #24 on:** June 17, 2005, 09:49:04 AM »

I absolutely agree with you Lawdog but that is just part of the game IMHO. As I am sure you know, sometimes those dogs just don't give you a good shot. I use a 223 with the above mentioned load at night and I generally get to shoot at the dogs coming straight at me so chest shots are the norm. The ole' shoulder shot has come into play a couple of times in the day time- without a doubt. But I generally get non messy kills with my 223. That being said, I am planning on getting a Hornet barrel for my Handi just for the purpose of night hunting to really narrow the chance of pelt damage.

UtahMike · « **Reply #25 on:** July 12, 2005, 05:18:50 PM »

For a long time I've used a 22-250 with a 55gr FMJ loaded way down with some SR4759. You can get them down the 1700-1800fps. I used Kapok or Dacron wisps to hold powder against primer, using only a small amount. (I don't know how safe this is, legal stuff, so I'm not recommending it to anyone) It just worked for me. Most times hole in and no exit hole, then if I needed a full load I could quickly change rounds.

It was a good way to take care of the pelt and take care of the animal.

Lone Star · « **Reply #26 on:** July 13, 2005, 03:48:45 AM »

Quote

I do know that the bullet stores a lot of energy spinning...

Yet others "know" this is fantasy. William C. Davis, one of the world's most respected ballisticians, calculated the amount of energy stored by a .308", 150-grain bullet fired out of a .30-06 in an article in American Rifleman. He compared a barrel with no twist to one with a 12" twist. The difference in stored energy was well under 1%. Even 1% equates to about 14 fps with the 150-grain bullet, an insignificant difference. With a .177" bullet it is on the order of 21 fps.

I don't doubt that some barrels are faster than others, but there are so many variables involved that it is impossible to say that any difference is due only to the bullet's rpm. It is much more likely due to increased engraving friction than to any energy transfer to a bullet. I'll belive Bill on this one.

For those interested in the math to calculate the rotational energy lost to bullet spin, go here:
http://www.aeroballisticsonline.com/ballistics/riflings.html