Author Topic: theoretical caliber question (Read 1900 times)

Gallahad · « **on:** May 23, 2005, 04:45:03 PM »

I was discussing the best choice for a bear protection gun with a fellow trout fisherman the other day. We only have black bear up here in WI, but ya run into a heavy one once in a while 500 lbs + Now we fish small creeks. you can step over them in most spots. lots of brush. The smaller a gun the better. Problem is , they don't really make a bear caliber that light. about the best would be rugers new alaskan. but it came up that 'if one wanted a "small" handgun for bear, could you buy something that would double as a concealed carry gun.' You know, just in case WI law makers realize there denying the people there constitutional rights and actually pass such legislation. :roll:

anyway, we came up with 2 choices. both taurus

2" barrel 357 mag. 7 shots
2" barrel 45 colt 5 shots ported

both are acceptable (in my opinion) with proper ammo for c.c

but what would you rather have for bear protection?
consider recoil, knock down power, penetration

of course both are less than ideal for bear protection, but just for the sake of the argument what would be better? and lets assume you can hand load either one.

and if ya know of a model worthy of c.c. that would better fit the bill chime in. And remember this is just theoretical.

TScottO · « **Reply #1 on:** May 23, 2005, 05:05:38 PM »

If I were in your situation I would go with a good 4" Smith 629. Even the shorter barreled optoins like the Trail Boss would be cool.

If you can find one, a Smith 696 3" 5shot 44 special might be just the ticket. As for the 357 I don't thinks it's up to the task.

Tarus also makes a little 45 Colt Tracker that would be dandy as well. I believe they are about K frame size.

Take Care,
Scott

Archblackmage · « **Reply #2 on:** May 23, 2005, 05:17:18 PM »

I read about some that liked a glock 10mm for bear country, a .44mag s/w mountain gun or 629 4in barrel, the ruger .454 alaskan can also shoot .45LC,
a dan wesson .445 super mag will also shoot .44mag, .44sp. and can change barrel lengths, the .657mag is haddy since most can handle the recoil and can load .38 spe. I have a dan wesson 15-2 reveolver pack a 357mag with 2.5,4,6,8in barrels I usually carry it with the 4in barrel attached. By the way dan wesson, ruger (redhawk, srh, sbh, g-100), freedom arms, mag research
desert eagle, and bfr.

I would say use the largest caliber you feel comfortable with shooting. A shootgun and lever action big bore would also be good bear medicine.

myronman3 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 23, 2005, 05:21:41 PM »

i have a 586 i have been carrying lately. i am surprised at how well it carries. very comfortable to wear. and man can i draw down on a target quick. i know it aint exaclty the caliber for our bigger bears, but it beats nothing. and if your handloading, some mighty fine loads are availible for it.

mikey recently talked about a cast 200 gr. bullet he loads. i am sure he will share it if asked. often times the report of a gun is enough to remind bears who is on top of the food chain. there are occasions, though where it is not.

i feel safe with my 586; but that is more likely because the two legged varmints are more likely to be a problem than the bears. remember also, you can already carry in wisconsin- just keep it in plain sight. i like it better anyhow, i can get to it faster. :wink:

RCL · « **Reply #4 on:** May 24, 2005, 02:09:48 AM »

I have one and they are easier to conceal than you might think. I use a Galco high rise belt slide holster with a stiff belt, under a baggy shirt. I've worn this out in public and felt confident that nobody noticed.
The .44 Mag has a lot of available ammo options for hunting/outdoors use, and can be loaded with .44 Special ammo for concealed carry.
I think it's one of the better available options in a dual purpose compromise handgun that you are looking for.

Mikey · « **Reply #5 on:** May 24, 2005, 02:18:53 AM »

Gallahad - get yourself a 4" M29/629 (44 mag). They actually weigh less empty than the 357 on the same frame does (bigger holes), but shoot bigger slugs.

If you might encounter the ocassional 500+ black bear, even a 200 grain 357 might not be sufficient - I would want the 44 mag. Black Bears half that weight can be fierce and the 357 should handle a Black Bear in the 200 - 300 lb range, but with heavy hardcast slugs, not hollowpoints.

The 44 mag has so many loadings available that you won't be at any loss just buying over the counter, but it may be more difficult to find the heavier 357 loadings.

Yes, I like the 357 but not enough to consider it as social protection against a 500+ lb Black Bear. JMHO. Mikey.

Lawdog · « **Reply #6 on:** May 24, 2005, 08:22:28 AM »

Which ever one you choose make darn sure you have the front sight removed. :-D :-D My pick, None Of The Above. Lawdog

DakotaElkSlayer · « **Reply #7 on:** May 24, 2005, 08:40:14 AM »

Wisconsin black bear protection? Do you actually KNOW anyone who was ever attacked by a Wisconsin black bear? I moved here from Michigan't U.P. and never heard of such a thing... Attacks by wild turkeys or ruffed grouse were much more common in da' U.P. :-D

Jim

myronman3 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 24, 2005, 12:02:50 PM »

yes, i do. over the last five years, we have had several incidents with a blackie grabbing someone. my brother had a very bad experience last year. he now carries a glock 10mm while out and about.

oso45-70 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 24, 2005, 03:56:22 PM »

This is easy, Handgun for town, Rifle for the woods..........Joe.........

DakotaElkSlayer · « **Reply #10 on:** May 24, 2005, 05:31:33 PM »

Quote from: myronman3

yes, i do. over the last five years, we have had several incidents with a blackie grabbing someone. my brother had a very bad experience last year. he now carries a glock 10mm while out and about.

Wow...you should apply for a bear tag! I know that over there by Escanaba, MI they seem to shoot blackies that are 550lbs. plus. If you are talking bears that big, you'd have to use pretty much the same thing you would for grizzlies...41Mag. minumum.

Jim

myronman3 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 25, 2005, 12:04:24 PM »

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=62682

myronman3 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 25, 2005, 12:08:40 PM »

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=62682

Gallahad · « **Reply #13 on:** May 25, 2005, 12:56:17 PM »

Yep! A fellow I went to highschool with got attacked in his tree stand, deer hunting (bow). bear went up his tree, & took a big chunk of his side out with a swip of her paw. many stitches. tree stand broke under the sows weight and gave out. thats what saved him.

Hey! myronman3 Birchwood ain't too far from me. I know its legal to carry on the outside but it's a pain if ya got waders on. Also I have known guys who were carrying (on the outside) and had been hassled by the dnr. One guy got a ticket for not having a small game license (since that was the only thing open for hunting at the time) and having a loaded firearm in the woods. :roll: Makes ya wonder if thease fellas ever herd of the second amendment.

Thaks all for the responses

Raging480 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 25, 2005, 01:20:51 PM »

"Theoretically" My 3" S&W 657 with a magnaported bbl fits the bill quite nicely.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 25, 2005, 04:22:55 PM »

My.02 worth , i have a tracker 4in. in 45lc// carry it as my ccw weapon here in ohio / with a good hard cast 300 gr. swc i would not think twice about using it in bear country. easy to carry and a dream to shoot

myronman3 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 25, 2005, 04:36:03 PM »

Quote

One guy got a ticket for not having a small game license (since that was the only thing open for hunting at the time) and having a loaded firearm in the woods.

yeah, they like you to have a small game license. were i ever ticketed for that, i jury would have to convict me on it.

Quote

Also I have known guys who were carrying (on the outside) and had been hassled by the dnr.

the dnr likes to hassle anyone about carrying; as do most cops up here. i have even had some try to give me a hard time about my handgun while hunting! some wardens are real nitwits. just remember that they are not the ultimate authority. be respectful, but let them know you know your rights and you will fight them in court. and be sure you are legal!!!

Quote

Birchwood ain't too far from me.

whereabouts are you located?

.44splx2 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 25, 2005, 05:22:59 PM »

The 3" .44spl is an excellent suggestion. Buffalo Bore heavys for the woods, Silver Tips or Gold Dots for CCW. The .44spl is way under-rated in my opinion. I have a 3" and a 2", both Tauruses. Both excellent revolvers. With boot grips (you might have to make them) the 2" is very easily concealed.

JOE MACK · « **Reply #18 on:** May 25, 2005, 05:59:26 PM »

Of the two you have listed, I'd go with the .45LC and as heavy a LFN slug as the cylinder will allow. However, black bear charges are not the norm. You might try a large can of Counter-assault too. I've used it on bears that came to the call and I didn't want to shoot with good success. I generally carry a .41Magnum everywhere I go in the outdoors. I like my OM Ruger Blackhawk, but the Smith Mountain guns are nice as are the Taurus Trackers. I'm waiting for the Smith M357PD which should be out soon.

As usual, do your best not to illicit aggressive action from bears. Don't carry your jelly doughnuts in your back pocket!

Gallahad · « **Reply #19 on:** May 26, 2005, 09:04:47 AM »

Winter erea. And thats one big bear that got hit over by you. Was that this spring?

Dave in WV · « **Reply #20 on:** May 26, 2005, 10:27:32 AM »

For bear protection I wouldn't consider a barrel less than 4" in length. If you really want a compact handgun get a 1911 in 460 Rowland or 45 Super. You don't want hollow points and you want heavy large diameter bullets. You'll also want sights you can see in dim light that will also allow you to pick your spot on a black hide. Black sights on a dark animal are hard to see.

myronman3 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 26, 2005, 11:01:29 AM »

Quote

Winter erea. And thats one big bear that got hit over by you. Was that this spring?

yes, it was a spring bear. i spliced about 80% of winter's phone lines. i am very familar with that area. my wife likes to visit the winter greenhouse; until it blew up, that is.

Gallahad · « **Reply #22 on:** May 26, 2005, 04:36:36 PM »

I live about 2 miles as the crow flies from the greenhouse. that explosion shook our house! :eek: We got outa bed and went lookin around, we thought somthing in our garage blew up! I guess it was a 100 lb propane tank.

that 629 trail boss looks real good. I just found out that taurus is coming out with a 2 1/2" 44 mag. that looks somthing like a raging bull. Same grip anyway. I have never shot a revolver that was more comfortable in my hands that a raging bull, that may be worth looking into.

Bug · « **Reply #23 on:** May 27, 2005, 03:08:08 AM »

I have an older, stainless, ported Taurus M-44 w/4" bbl. It is just a tad heavy, but it packs well, and is never in the way. I might consider a lighter gun, but it sure wouldn't be as pleasant to shoot! It would still have to be a .44, minimum.

cobrad · « **Reply #24 on:** May 27, 2005, 07:09:44 PM »

Pick up a Dan Wesson 44 mag and put on a 4" barrel. It's not a light weight, but it is stout enough to handle Garretts 330 gr. hard cast +P load. Shoot that blackie coming or going and either way that bullet should penetrate end to end.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #25 on:** May 28, 2005, 12:38:55 AM »

out of the two if your really feel a need for bear protection the 45 is definatly better. I live in the UP too and have never once even seen where an unwounded bear did anything but run like hell at any sign of a man. Best watch the way you carry that gun in wisconson they really frown on consealed carry!!!!!

Quote from: DakotaElkSlayer

Wisconsin black bear protection? Do you actually KNOW anyone who was ever attacked by a Wisconsin black bear? I moved here from Michigan't U.P. and never heard of such a thing... Attacks by wild turkeys or ruffed grouse were much more common in da' U.P. :-D

Jim

Dave in WV · « **Reply #26 on:** May 28, 2005, 05:35:24 AM »

Black bear attacks on humans are more common every year than all the other species of bear combined. Step between momma and the cubs and it will be on. Momma won't care if you step between them by accident or on purpose.

Lawdog · « **Reply #27 on:** May 29, 2005, 08:51:40 AM »

Quote from: Dave in WV

Black bear attacks on humans are more common every year than all the other species of bear combined. Step between momma and the cubs and it will be on. Momma won't care if you step between them by accident or on purpose.

Add to that if a Black Bear stalks and attacks you it's a predatory attack. Which means you are the guest for dinner. You might roll up into a ball with a Grizzly Bear and survive it's attack but not so with a Black Bear. They will press home the attack. Black Bear attacks have a much higher percentage of deaths than Grizzly Bears(Brown Bears) attacks do. Lawdog

Gallahad · « **Reply #28 on:** June 01, 2005, 02:58:25 PM »

You don't want to get between a black bear and its food either. many years ago I was puttin' corn out by my tree stand, and all of a sudden I heard a big grunt, not 15 feet behind me. Had a buddy with me, and when we had both identified it as a bear, we did something we shoulden't have.....We RAN! I kinda felt like I was just hovering over the ground. Don't know if Iv'e ever ran that fast before or since. But thank the Lord, he created that bear to be more interested in eating corn than people. It didn't follow us. It ate all the corn. I don't know how long it was there before It let us know it was ready to eat, but it didn't want us there and let us know it!

Oh, & Lloyd, Belive me.... I ALWAYS adhere to the law. To do any less in this day and age is foolish. Especially when you consider the consiquences.......3 yrs. NO HUNTING OR FISHING, huge fines, etc. But thank you for your concern, its a good thing to mention. I just can't belive that WI of all states is one which has trouble with concealed carry legislation. boggles my mind! I'l just keep praying!

Lawdog · « **Reply #29 on:** June 02, 2005, 10:07:48 AM »

Gallahad,

Quote

You don't want to get between a black bear and its food either. many years ago I was puttin' corn out by my tree stand, and all of a sudden I heard a big grunt, not 15 feet behind me. Had a buddy with me, and when we had both identified it as a bear, we did something we shoulden't have.....We RAN!

Don't feel bad about running. You aren't the first or the last to do so. I remember back when I was seventeen three of us(my best friend, my cousin & I) went salmon fishing on the upper reaches of the Klamath River and while fishing a large female Black Bear with two cubs showed up on the other side of the river from us. The place was shallow and only about 75 feet wide at that spot and she woofed at her cubs sending them up the bank behind her. She then jumped into the river and that was the last we saw because we were laying down a lot of tracks for her. My cousin and friend have somewhat longer legs than me(track team types - me, I played defensive tackle) but I still was right with them went we arrived back at the Jeep. Got our rifles out of the Jeep and went back. Had to as when we took off we left our fishing equipment where we were standing when she jumped into the river. She was gone but she took the salmon we had caught with her after busting up our tackle boxes. That was the last time we went salmon fishing without our rifles. Your story made me remember that time as if it had just happened. Lawdog