1860 Colt Army - Fluted Cylinder - loads?

[oldelm]

Will an Uberti 1860 Army with fluted cylinder handle the same loads that one with a rebated cylinder will? Just wondering if the fluted cylinder will be weaker by design.
Also, does anyone know if you can put a rebated '60 Army cylinder in a '60 Army fitted with fluted cylinder?  In other words,are the cylinders interchangeble.

thanks!

[ribbonstone]

So far as I've heard, isn't a strength differnece in the modern versions...better steel today (at least in some ways).  The only one I've looked at close had the rebated cylinder, just that the flutes kind of hide that rebate on the outside (looking down into a chamber, can still see it).

Will interchange with the same maker's regular cylinder..are just cuts to lighten the weight.

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Are some reprots that the originals tended to burst cylinders...many of the originals had the cylinder replaced.

Books say that some of the early 1861 Navy's also had full fluted cylinders....never saw an original with one, but the records indicate some were built.  Have seen an older Uberti 1861 Kit gun with a full fluted 36 cylinder.

[oldelm]

Ribbonstone........thanks for yer reply. You pretty much summed up what others have replied to query,...... as I've posted the same over on The High Road...

Interesting what you say about the '61 having the full fluted cylinder in some rare cases. I would guess the lighter loads in the .36 cal would lend to less chance of burst cylinder on the Oldtimers.

[ribbonstone]

Suposedly, Colt learned his lesson and got better (English) steel.  Walkers did blwo up...but it was usually EARLY in their use, kind of a weeding out process as the ones that didn't blow the cylinder in the first weeks usually never did.

Your quewstion is more about hoop strength...and that's as strong as the thinnest part.  Bith the non-fluted and the fluted barels sahre the same thinnest section (whre the chamber aproaches the outer diameter of the cylinder).

Was a matter of the steel used...by 1860, better steel made the 1860 Colt possible (and it steel was advertised as such).

Weren't alone...Tucker and Sheridan (CSA) made a Walker clone but with kind of make-shift steel. The only one I've seen real-life pictures of had a blown cylinder.  The CS Richmond copies (agin, CSA) had a reputation for blowing up...part of that is from the quality of the steel, but the bigger part is the fitting of the parts (on a Sharps, if you are a bit sloppy, powder dribbles in to the forearm as you cut the linen cartridge, and the lest little spark will blow the foreend to splinters).

Which kind of answeres the question why the CSA gun makers were found of .36's...usuing the brass or poorer quaility steel, the smaller bore made more sense.

[Flint]

Ribbonstone is right, but there is a timing issue.  The full fluted Army (or Navy) cylinder has the locking notches essentially on top of a fairly steep hill, meaning that if the bolt drops early, the nose has to climb that slope to get to the notch, and this is all loading up the pressure on the hand as you try to cock the gun.

I found (the hard way) that timing a full fluted cylinder can be a real chore.  The bolt MUST drop into the notch's lead cut at the earliest so that the ramp isn't encountered.  This, if you have an early dropping bolt to start with (which probably scraped a line on your round cylinder), you will most likely have to start with a brand new bolt, so you can adjust the drop point off the hammer's cam, and make sure your hammer's bolt cam is clean and sharp as well.

Once the fluted cylinder is timed in, the round cylinder will be perfect.  If the bolt drops a bit late or dead into the notch, you run a chance of skipping if you cock too fast, so the proper timing window is narrower than with the round cylinder.

Not to scare you off, because the gun is really beautiful with that cylinder installed, and worth the effort to get it running right.

The critical timing issue, I'm sure, is the reason the Single Action Army cylinders (and most all other modern cylinders) are only half fluted.

[ribbonstone]

Good point...never thought the miss-timed cylinder situation through, but that increase in tension from an early falling bolt would certainly be noticable.

Makes me wonder now if the original's tendency to burst cylinders might not have had timing contribute to the event.

Are unsual looking guns, and the timing issue is one that can be cured if it is present (the same way drag lines can be cured: get that bolt to fall at the right time)...would be worth it, think they have a certain style about them.

[oldelm]

Flint,.....thanks for bringing the timing issue to my attention. I had not even thought of it. Well, I'm trying to think ahead on this whole thing (maybe not far enough ahead, LOL!), as I just purchased a new Uberti 1860 Army w/fluted cylinder about 3 days ago on-line, and it's not in my possesion yet. The price was right, so thought I'd pick it up,..thinking , well, if there's a problem with the fluted cylinder (at the time I was concerned about loads),.... then perhaps I could pick up a round(rebated) cylinder for it.

Anyway, I understand the gist of what you're saying about the timing issue with the fluted cylinder, although I haven't had that much experience tweaking the single action Colts into proper working order, but am up for learning about them. Just got Chicoine's book and will  delve into his explanations about troubleshooting the Single Action Army.

When you say

the proper timing window is narrower than with the round cylinder

......do you mean that's because you want to keep the bolt away from the slope before the  notch (ramp?), so it doesn't have to climb the slope to get to the notch.......so it's got to enter the  notch's lead cut at the very first contact,...to keep it out of the ramp/steep slope? Whereas, with the round cylinder, the bolt could begin to drop a little earlier than the notches lead cut.  This may be a dumb question  :oops: ,...but how does one know just when the bolt is dropping relative to the position of the cylinder, when it's so hard to see beneath the cylinder as it's cycling?
Thanks.

[ribbonstone]

As a a rough check, can feel the bolt "clicking" up into contact as you pull the hammer back past the 1/2 cock (free rotation) position.  Can't see underneath worth a hoot, but the cylinder (on a 6-shot) on top is a mirror image of the one below, so when you feel that "click" can tell where it fell by looking at the top rather than the bottom.

May not even be an issue...the last Uberti I got was timed right, the bolt falling very close to the notch; close enough that a full-flute would have been working just fine.

[oldelm]

the cylinder (on a 6-shot) on top is a mirror image of the one below, so when you feel that "click" can tell where it fell by looking at the top rather than the bottom.

Thanks, Ribbonstone,.......great idea. I'll be doing that soon as the gun arrives. I'm hoping Uberti's penchant for quality control stays consistent on this one, but if not, ....I'll be willing to learn how get in there  and make the necessary adjustmentments.

 Here's one of the best pictures I've ever seen taken of a replica 1860 Army / fluted.......

http://www.fotohaz.hu/fotoarena/data/519/1531Colt1860a.jpg?9759

It's from a posting by a fella on  http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-45502.html  ">This forum

[ribbonstone]

Handsome pistol, the full fluted treatment was designed to save weight, that the pistol looks good is just a (lucky) secondary aspect of the design.

Are those that like the rolle engraving, but realizing (1) that it's oprignainl intent wass to defeat non-colt pitols from being apssed as real Cotls and (2) what a NAVAL scene has to do with an ARMY psitol seems  a bit convoluted at best.

Would tempt me for my next one..but have my heart set on a Dance repro.

[Flint]

Oldelm, as Ribbonstone mentioned, you can tell by the timing of hearing the click, as it reaches the lockup position, if it clicks so close to the final position that it must be in the lead groove.  Anyway, it's worth having a few extra cylinders around, anyway, for preloading at a match, etc.  As I said, if you get it timed for the fluted cylinder, the round one will never get drag marks.

[jd45]

I've been using 25grs( by volume) Hodgdon's 777 2f under a round ball in my Uberti 1860 Army with fluted cylinder. Haven't had any problems yet,
tho I'm new to front-loading revolvers, jd45.
P.S. 777 is supposed to give 10% to 15% more velocity than black.