Author Topic: The .280 Remington........... (Read 6144 times)

Lawdog · « **on:** May 24, 2005, 09:13:24 AM »

Time for all those that shoot/reload for this fine cartridge to come forward and tell the rest of us why you love this much maligned cartridge so much. Factory data doesn't do the .280 justice and I, for one, wonder why that is? Plenty of excellent bullets available in 7mm(.284 caliber) so why didnt this cartridge get received better by the shooting public? Lawdog

PA-Joe · « **Reply #1 on:** May 24, 2005, 09:54:25 AM »

It was replaced by the 7mm 08! It doesn't do anything more or better than the 270 or 30-06.

flintlock · « **Reply #2 on:** May 24, 2005, 10:12:08 AM »

Just like the 6mm vs .243...It ain't the cartridge...it was the model
rifles offered by Remington.....

If the .270 had been a .280 when introduced in 1925...and the .243 had been a .25 caliber...maybe .25-08....When introduced in 1955...Then what would we all discuss??? How to make thicker gravey for our deer roast??? :-D

I have a brother that has both a .280 and a 7mm-08...I have another brother that owns two .270s....both have sons that hunt...some evenings we skin deer that have been killed with all three calibers...Dang if I can tell any difference on whitetails....Or enough difference in recoil to choose one over the other...If I were looking to buy a new deer rifle...I would focus my attention on which manufacturer made the model gun I wanted...and then see if it was offered in any of these calibers....If I lived in elk/grizzly country...and wanted to stay withing these three...I'd pick the .280 (Even though I realize that Jack O'Conner killed at least 18 elk with a .270...most with 130 grain bullets)...btw...Before Jack O'Conner died....Jim Carmicheal was having a custom rifle built...Jack advised Jim to go with a .280.....

msorenso · « **Reply #3 on:** May 24, 2005, 10:55:26 AM »

Help me. I have shot plenty of deer with a 270. no complaints. What does the 280 do better? I don't know much about it but never saw the advantage.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #4 on:** May 24, 2005, 11:31:16 AM »

Remington made some mistakes with the .280.......First, it came out in 1957 chambered in the 740 auto loader and wasn't offered until a year later in a bolt action..........factory ammo was down loaded for use in the autos and slide actions.......

The .270 Winchester had been around for 30+ more years and could do anything the .280 could.........slow enough burning powders weren't available in those days to really take advantange of the potiental of the .280........

Enter 1962..........Remington chambers a new whiz-bang, the 7mm Remington Magnum...........this new Magnum was all the rage, and gun writers could sell more magazines using the word Magnum.............so the new Remington magnum got all the press.........and to this day, the word magnum creates a sparkle in a young fellows eyes!

The .280 is also know as the 7mm/06 and 7mm express Remington which added to the confusion......the 7mm/06, 285 OKH, and 7mm Mashburn, which goes back to the 1920's, are a variant of the same cartridge using the same 30.06 case........

The fifties and sixties saw boat loads of cheap Mauser 95's and 98's imported in 7 X 57 mm and that probably hurt the .280.........

Then, throw the 7mm/08 into the picture and you get roughly the same in a short action..........

I've always thought the .280 was about as close to perfect in a 7mm as a fellow could get........plenty of power, it offers just a little more than the 7 X 57 or the 7mm/08.......without the recoil of the Magnums............

I have to give credit for most of the problems of .280 popularity to the marketing genius of Remington.......this is one that should have been standardized and sold years earlier......then again....maybe the slow powders weren't available at the time to really make a .280 what it is today......

Any one have one they don't want, send it this way!

longwinters · « **Reply #5 on:** May 24, 2005, 02:36:55 PM »

Well I have posted before on how much I like my Sako 280. To be honest, I don't know if it is the caliber, the make of rifle or a combination of both, but this thing is the best shooting rifle I have ever owned or shot. I like the 280 better than the 270 for 2 reasons. First because of a wider variety of bullet weights available (for the reloader). Second because I like to have something that is not common. That being said, I only shoot 140 gn bullets out of the 280 so the 1st reason is inconsequential :lol: . I would also have to admit that if I want to shoot a heavier bullet I will shoot 165 gns out of my 308 and if lighter is the ticket 100 gns out of my 243. So I guess that even my 2nd reason does not hold much water :? .

Maybe I like the 280 so well because it has treated me so well since I have had it.

Long

aulrich · « **Reply #6 on:** May 24, 2005, 02:57:58 PM »

It could have been the "mm" thing, but I would think that it's more that there just is not that much room between 270 and 30-06 for product definition. If you line up the 30-06 based cartridges, 25-06, 270, 280, 30-06, 338-06 and 35 whelan and compare any of them to thier neighbor in regards to performance on something like whitetail and your splitting hairs.

For a new cartridge to catch on there needs to be at least the preception that it brings something new to public, in essence bringing it's own piece of the shooting pie. I guess Remington tried but the world was not ready for a long range pump gun.

From a marketing standpoint the 280 should have died after the first name change (7mm express) but it still exists because it's a fine round. If I had a rig that suited the terain I hunt and it was in 280 I would not be too compelled to sell it. Can it do anything that the 270 or 30-06 can't do, no not really, but neither can the 270 or 30-06.

Savorino · « **Reply #7 on:** May 25, 2005, 08:27:45 PM »

7mm mag thats easier/cheaper to reload, no belt, standard action, standard barrel length.
Sav

azmike · « **Reply #8 on:** May 30, 2005, 03:04:56 PM »

If I could have found one in a left-hand bolt when I bought my 7mm Rem Mag, I would be happily shooting a .280 instead. I like the greater variety of bullets for the 7mm's versus the .270, and the 7mm just holds more appeal for me over the ubiquitous .30 caliber.

azmike · « **Reply #9 on:** May 30, 2005, 03:09:14 PM »

If I could have found one in a left-hand bolt when I bought my 7mm Rem Mag, I would be happily shooting a .280 instead. I like the greater variety of bullets for the 7mm's versus the .270, and the 7mm just holds more appeal for me over the ubiquitous .30 caliber.

Lou270 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 18, 2005, 10:59:46 AM »

Quote from: Lawdog

Time for all those that shoot/reload for this fine cartridge to come forward and tell the rest of us why you love this much maligned cartridge so much. Factory data doesn't do the .280 justice and I, for one, wonder why that is? Plenty of excellent bullets available in 7mm(.284 caliber) so why didnt this cartridge get received better by the shooting public? Lawdog

Actually, factory ballistics do the .280 pretty well. Published velocities are 3000-3050 with 140 gr and 2890 fps with 150s. Certainly in line with what the .280 is capable of. Whether the rounds actually meet the published velocity is another matter. You can reach these velocities with good handloads, though.

That being said, the .280 is a favorite round of mine. Certainly, deserves to be more popular than it is. As far as I can tell, it is sliding down the charts again after a surge of popularity in the late 80s/early 90s. The 2004 RCBS die sales list does not even show it in the top 50. I expect a lot of people love the .280 so much (excellent ballistics aside) due to it's underdog status. Everybody has a .270 or .06, but those looking for something a bit different, tout the .280. As for myself, I like, own, and shoot all 3.

I expect the .280 wasn't recieved well by the shooting public mostly because few cartridges rarely start out popular. When the .280 had a few years under it's belt and the bugs worked out, Remington introduced the sexy 7mm Remington Magnum. Those who wanted a 7mm that really does combine the flat trajectory of the .270 with the power of the .30-06, went the magnum route.

-Lou

oso45-70 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 18, 2005, 02:01:09 PM »

lawdog,

Looks like its all been said both pro & con. I have a Remington 700 out of Remingtons custom shop and the workmanship on this is out of sight. I put a Leupold 3 1/2 x 10 scope on it. It is very accurate, Does every thing i ask it to do, As you have probably figgered out i'am a full fledged
gun nut and have many outstanding guns in my collection, But if some thing happened that i could have only one rifle it would be the one i kept. It will do any thing that i would ever need or want to do. In my humble opinion the 280 is the sweet spot between the 270 and the 30-06 which gives me the advantege of both worlds, I could go on and on about my 280 but don't want to bore you to death............Joe...........

Dave in WV · « **Reply #12 on:** June 18, 2005, 05:13:21 PM »

The .280 has had a rep. for being finicky to reload. IMHO that is probably BS but it seems if you tell a lie often enough it seems to be accepted as truth. I don't own a .280. My son does and has a 30-06 and a .243. He likes them all. I'm an 06 man. Not to offend the .270 crowd but I'd take a .280 over a .270 because of the bullet weights available. ( the same type of reasoning I'm an 06 fan)

oso45-70 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 18, 2005, 06:20:00 PM »

Dave in WV

Yes i've heard that too, But never from a person that uses the 280 Rem.
I don't find the 280 hard to load for in fact just the opposite has been my experience. I've thrown all kinds of loads at mine and it didn't seem to matter, I get good accuracy with what ever load i choose, Don't get me wrong i do take the time to build the very best load for what i'm doing
according to weather, temp. whether its cold or hot. I know a lot of fellers that have one load HOT OR COLD They won't work the same in both conditions, To most it don't make that much difference, It does to me.
Have a good day all.......Joe.........

Coalminer7 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 19, 2005, 04:56:52 AM »

Have 2 - .280's a 700 mtn rifle and a 7600 NIB. Love my 700 it is by far the best handling rifle. I have no trouble with reloading it , 51.0 grs of
IMR 4350 and 154 Hor. bullet. Shoots thru everything I hunt. The .280 has been a stepchild by most people and its father BIG GREEN hasn't helped it much either, but look what they did to the .260. I have lost much respect for Remington as all they are concerned with is NUMBERS,
theirs not ours.

Just my .02 Coalminer7

oso45-70 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 19, 2005, 10:11:45 AM »

coalminer

You hit the nail on the head, Big Green is like a chinese circle jerk, The mismanagement level is unbelievable, Seems to me they are trying to destroy one of the oldest and finest Arms companys. This makes me sick.
Whats it going to take to wake the sleeping giant? Here i sit with a safe full of Remington firearms and am starting to feel like i've been left out in the dark. BEATS ME..........Joe...........

kombi1976 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 21, 2005, 02:57:46 PM »

I'm with Joe.
Remington's present marketting department couldn't find their bottom with both hands and a map. :x
This a little off track, but they developed the 6.8 SPC for the army not so long ago and when tested it proved itself to be a wonderful low-recoil, high-accuracy cartridge.
So what did Remington choose to do???
They chambered it only in the custom shop Alaskan Wilderness Rifle and made it impossible to succeed on a large scale. :?
The .280 has everything going for it.
Heaps of European manufacturers chamber for it as well as popular Euro rounds like the 7x64(which is basically ballistically identical) because it really delivers.
The most interesting inexpensive .280 on the market is H&R/NEF's Handirifle which has a 26" bbl.
I'm seriously considering buying one.
With the huge range of 7mm bullets available why wouldn't you? :roll:

while99 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2005, 01:31:46 PM »

I've been loading for the .280 since 1978 and have never found it to be finicky. I use mostly IMR-4350 with the lighter bullets and either IMR-4831 or Reloader 19 with the 160 grain bullets. On the rare occasion when I shoot 175 grain bullets, I use IMR-7828. Federal 215 magnum primers and mostly Winchester nickel-plated cases just so I can tell them at a glance from .270 and .30/06 cases.
The .280 is an exceedingly fine cartridge but seems to have been almost abandoned by its parent company. Remington chambers very few rifles for it any more.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 28, 2005, 03:57:53 PM »

Quote from: while99

The .280 is an exceedingly fine cartridge but seems to have been almost abandoned by its parent company. Remington chambers very few rifles for it any more.

Y'know, practically all of us are saying the same things, at least as far as Remington goes.
Are they living in a vaccuum? :?
Surely some of the disatisfaction in the hard-core shooting fraternity is making it to Remington's executive? :|
Or, more disturbing, do they know and not care?

? :shock:

How come Winchester keeps churning out successful new cartridges that could be described as useful but hardly miraculous and yet Remington hasn't had a publicly successful cartridge for, well, quite a long time? :?
Any comments, guys?

Lawdog · « **Reply #19 on:** June 29, 2005, 08:37:07 AM »

Quote from: kombi1976

Surely some of the disatisfaction in the hard-core shooting fraternity is making it to Remington's executive? :|

Actually Remington, like many other companies today, are run by the accountants which are ruled by the all mighty dollar. If sales drop off enough the item is dropped form the Remington line. The board will over rule Remington's executives every time.

Quote

Or, more disturbing, do they know and not care?? :shock:

Good question and lately they seem not to care about the consumer, only for his/her money.

Quote

How come Winchester keeps churning out successful new cartridges that could be described as useful but hardly miraculous and yet Remington hasn't had a publicly successful cartridge for, well, quite a long time? :?

Most of Remingtons successful cartridges have already had a successful history as wildcats before Remington adopted them and stuck the Remington name on them(.22-250, .25-06, 7mm-08 just to name a few). As far as Winchester bringing out successful new cartridges and Remington not, the latest offerings of short-fat magnums Winchester was first and got a hugh head start on Remington. Remingtons line of SAUMs are not selling well and their longevity is seriously in doubt. Remingtons Board of Directors needs to start listening to the shooting public and forget the stockholders dividends a little. Lawdog
:toast:

kombi1976 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 29, 2005, 02:08:24 PM »

I think if Remington had been listening they could've made a bundle out of a 338 SAUM.
But they probably believe the 350 Rem Mag already fulfils that market for them.
But as good as the 350 may be it simply isn't as popular as .338.
BTW, has anyone actually told Remington of their disatisfaction in a open letter of some sort of petition?

BuckTrucker · « **Reply #21 on:** June 30, 2005, 02:48:02 AM »

Quote from: Lawdog

Quote from: kombi1976
Remingtons Board of Directors needs to start listening to the shooting public and forget the stockholders dividends a little. Lawdog
:toast:

Actually, if they start listening to the shooting public, aka the customers, they will probably sell more which should make their stockholders very happy! It's really not rocket science is it.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 30, 2005, 03:05:37 AM »

Quote from: BuckTrucker

Quote from: Lawdog
Remingtons Board of Directors needs to start listening to the shooting public and forget the stockholders dividends a little.

Actually, if they start listening to the shooting public, aka the customers, they will probably sell more which should make their stockholders very happy! It's really not rocket science is it.

See, we know that. :wink:
It's also common sense that conservative growth, wise investment in R&D and close examination of customer needs results in sustainable long term growth. :roll:
But from the end of the 20th century and into the 21st many large companies have decided instead to distance themselves from their customers, focus on shifting as many units as possible and made decisions that produce impressive short term profits.
The long term effect, however, is that they lose their core market and when there is some type of downturn, however short that may be, there is nothing to draw upon.
Further, they trade on repackaged older designs & have to pay considerable royalties to use the newer designs developed by others in order to appear up to date.
Noticing a trend here. :|
I won't say that Remington is guilty of all these things, but they are of more than a few. :?

1911crazy · « **Reply #23 on:** July 25, 2005, 01:14:17 AM »

Remington just purchased the Russian Izhmash Saiga Shotguns and is reboxing them and selling them under their Spartan line lets not forget these are awesome shotguns and the semi-auto's are designed after the AK47's of course they cost more too now. That tells me that the sales of remington guns are way off(SLOW). They keep on comming out with new calibers that is like splitting hairs inbetween the old calibers and with some there is no advantage what so ever with them. I guess their trying to reinvent the wheel to boost sales. Do we need all these choices?? The smaller caliber market is just flooded and the mid bore line is just about flooded with too many choices too. I would like to see something redone and offered with the upper end calibers like a 45/90, 45/100, 50/100 or 50/120? How about a 50/140? I would just like to see something new offered in this area? Maybe a new Remington rolling block line of rifles? Something new? Something totally different? Just bring back the old remington quality too. BigBill

BTW; I look forward to getting more new Russian Saiga's my 308win sporter is accurate too and the $307 OTD price tag and its just as accurate as the remington semi too. I can't wait till they offer the Saiga model 100's here in 270win and 30-06 too, all i can say is bring them on. You just can't match the quality, the reliability, the dependability and the price of these russian guns. Remington has been falling off with their quality since about '95 and their customer service additude just plain sucks too lets face it their going down due to their own shots in their own foot!!!!! They did it to themselves. I have been eyeing the new Mossberg ATR rifle!!!!!

kombi1976 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 25, 2005, 03:19:04 AM »

Quote from: BigBill

They keep on comming out with new calibers that is like splitting hairs inbetween the old calibers and with some there is no advantage what so ever with them. I guess their trying to reinvent the wheel to boost sales. Do we need all these choices?? The smaller caliber market is just flooded and the mid bore line is just about flooded with too many choices too.

I totally agree.
They all work but who seriously needs them, particularly the 260 Rem.
6.5x55s have done fine for over 50 years.

Quote from: BigBill

I would like to see something redone and offered with the upper end calibers like a 45/90, 45/100, 50/100 or 50/120? How about a 50/140? I would just like to see something new offered in this area? Maybe a new Remington rolling block line of rifles? Something new? Something totally different? Just bring back the old remington quality too.

The problem with those eminently desirable cartridges is that they either need to be loaded with black powder, which as far as I'm aware has a much shorter shelf life(correct me if I'm wrong) and can seriously damage barrels without careful cleaning, making them an undesirable cartridge to factory load.
Or they need smokeless loads, which Remington also wouldn't do since they have a very narrow ammunition production range in reality.
Rolling blocks also aren't entirely suitable for todays high pressure high powered cartridges which Remington is convinced is what we all want.
As far as something new and novel goes, I think we've already established that they suck at marketing new ideas so it'd never get off the ground.
Anything that involves risk isn't going to happen at Remington until they change their entire approach and they'll continue to backslide while they try stopgap measures like selling re-badged Baikals.
It really is tragic that a company with a tradition like Remington can be so boring and mercenary in a market(I mean sport shooting BTW) that lives off tradition and legend.
If Remington could come up with a product like the Ruger No.1 and made it accessable to the average joe along with some decent customer service they'd make a heap.
But it aint gonna happen. :?

High Brass · « **Reply #25 on:** July 25, 2005, 07:04:03 AM »

Imagine my surprise when I took a factory stock(with the exception of scope) Ruger M77 mark II in 280 and shot five consecutive 3 shot groups under an inch. One was even less than a half inch! Load was 53gr. of IMR 4350, once fire Remington cases, WLR primers, and 140gr. Remington Core Lokts seated to the cannelure. I don't know how fast it was going as the load wasn't chronied but darn sure wasn't lacking in accuracy. Ineresting enough, I haven't been able to achieve that level of accuracy with Hornady SSTs (139gr.). So, I'm going back to the first load. I haven't shot a load in the rifle that I couldn't hunt with accuracy wise and I've found it not bad at all to shoot as far as recoil is concerned. When I bought the rifle, I was in the market for a stainless rifle and just wanted something different than 30-06(I have 2). This one just "spoke" to me and I haven't regretted the decision.

dharvey · « **Reply #26 on:** July 29, 2005, 02:34:59 AM »

Bad Press? Bad Marketing? America's early dislike for calibers measured in millimeters? I don't know, but I agree, this is one fine cartridge that doesn't get the attention it deserves. I recall in the early 80's a whitetail guns and ammo type book that I bought making the statement that the "7mm Express Remington was too much cartridge for deer" while extolling the virtues of the .270 and 30-06. Go figure... :roll:

kombi1976 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 29, 2005, 09:32:30 PM »

I think it has something to do with the industry's inability to deal with that dirty "c" word. :shock:
You know the one; "change"........DUN! DUN! DUN!! (said with menacing emphasis a'la horror movie soundtrack) :lol:

Seriously though, outside the "Big 5"(.223, .243, .270, .308 & .30-06, not to be confused with lion, elephant, rhino, hippo and cape buffalo) many shooters feel that other non-magnum rounds are unnecessary(if not inferior) also-rans.
The gun companies seem convinced that it's what we want because these seem to be the cartridges that are pushed at public all the time in new rifles.

I make no secret of the fact that despite these 5 are effective I find them boring and aspire never to own a rifle chambered in any of them.

Call me crazy but there you go. :wink:

JD338 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 30, 2005, 07:49:26 AM »

I have to agree with all of you that Remington bean counters are running the company into the ground.
The 280 Rem is a fantastic cartridge, capable of excellent accurate and ample power for NA and African game (except the big bears).
My M700 Classic 280 Rem shoots sub MOA with RL19, IMR 4350, IMR4831 with 140 gr and 160 gr bullets. With 140 gr Nosler BT's, the 280 Rem kills deer like lightning.

Thank goodness for reloading, at least we can load to the true potential of the cartridge.

Regards,

JD338

Mauser · « **Reply #29 on:** August 02, 2005, 04:47:45 AM »

I love the 280 and know a few guys who use it. One of my good hunting friends tells me it is the best cartridge in existence. I tell him that might be true but if it is then the 270 and '06 are an extremely close #2 and #3 behind it. It may be the ultimate example of splitting hairs between cartridges to distinguish the 280 from the 270. One is .284 diameter and the other is .277. They both seem to do well with about 58-60 grains of 4350/4831 powder and 150/160 grain bullets. I find it funny when someone tries to tell me that an animal is going to tell the difference.