Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two

[CAV Trooper]

Guys,

As this seems to be proceeding forward, I figured I'd better start a new thread.

Knowing your interest in these things and in anticipation of a possible group buy, I drew up a design for a handgonne over the weekend. I took it down to my machinist friend today and was able to work out a production run with him at a cost I that think will be very attractive to you all.

The design is basically the same as the one without any tapers that GGaskill posted in the previous thread. Also, Since I haven't found a source for 1144SP hex bar stack, I went with round. I used this design figuring that the K.I.S.S. principal would hold the cost down. I was right, it did. IÂ’d scan the thing and post it but the full sized drawing is too big for my scanner.

The basic dimensions are as follows:
 
Material – 1.25” diameter 1144SP round steel bar (100,000psi)
Total length – 12”
Bore - .60 caliber, 8.5” deep (Will shoot .59 lead balls)
Butt end drilled .74” x 2.5” deep for a .75” wooden stick
Touch hole – .125” (for liability reasons, the touch hole will not be drilled completely through)

If desired, and somebody wants one, the handgonne can also be made from 1.50” C360 hex brass bar with a .50 bore. This will look really cool and I plan to do one of these for myself.  

Now to the bottom line...With an order of 10 or more handgonnes, either all steel, all brass or any combination of the two, the price IÂ’ve been able to work out is as follows:

Steel - $75 each
Brass - $95 each (this reflects the additional cost for the material)

The price does't include the actual shipping costs to the purchaser but those shouldnÂ’t be more than $10 per handgonne.

If youÂ’re interested in getting one of these or have any other questions, email me at:  cavtrooper6970@aol.com

[Cat Whisperer]

That price is great!  It's obvious that this is not a money-making proposition, but a 'group-buy' like has been done many times with Lee bullet moulds on the cast bullet boards.

Have you set a cut-off date, or is it a little early to be thinking of that?

I would think you'd want a minimum number before committing to do this.

[CAV Trooper]

That price is great!  It's obvious that this is not a money-making proposition, but a 'group-buy' like has been done many times with Lee bullet moulds on the cast bullet boards.

Have you set a cut-off date, or is it a little early to be thinking of that?

I would think you'd want a minimum number before committing to do this.

CW,

Like you said, this is pretty much a group buy and not something for me to make money with. At least not yet anyway.    That's why the price is so low. I figured there's lots of guys, like me, that don't have access to all of the cool toys (metal lathes, etc.) to build their own. It seemed a shame for some of the members not to be able to burn up BP along with the rest of us.

I haven't thought about a cut-off date yet but will probably set one at some point. I want to see how the interest is running first.

My machinist friend likes to set up for batch runs so in able to get the quoted price I have to have a minimum of ten (10) handgonnes ordered. The material, steel or brass, isn't a factor. The total number is. If we go considerably over ten, I might be able to get the price down a bit but I can't guarantee that right now.

FYI, there are three gonnes committed to so far. Only seven to go.   :grin:

[claypipe]

Also, Since I haven't found a source for 1144SP hex bar stack,

If desired, and somebody wants one, the handgonne can also be made from 1.50” C360 hex brass bar with a .50 bore.

Deleted by moderator....be polite and not confrontational
You sincerely need to rethink your metallurgy. Its easy enough to make a gonne, and its just as easy to find out why they are called 'hand gone."

Claypipe
Gonnemeister

[Third_Rail]

What are you talking about??? 1144SP is about the toughest steel you can use for this purpose.


You seem to be forgetting that this is a repro of a very old gonne, one that was made with far inferior materials compared to what will be used. I think you really ought to read up on different steels, especially 1144SP as compared to cast bronze.  :?

[CAV Trooper]

argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by DD


I'm sure that I speak for most of the other board members by humbly requesting that you share with us your vast knowledge of the subject we may be enlightened as to the PROPER construction of a handgonne.

[Third_Rail]

argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by DD

[claypipe]

argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by DD

But  I did give reason why. WRONG METALURGY. Sorry if science messes with anyone's version of reality.

Easy enough, 1144sp is tough, too tough, almost crystaline in structure. It stands up to slow applied torque, but does not deal well with sudden applied pressure.

Then there was the aluminium bronze post. Again the same problem, almost crystaline in structure, and ranks right up there with the idea of using phosphorus bronze.

Your choices are great for handgrenades, not handgonnes. Anyone here know the phsyics of a bullet passing through a gun barrel? There's a ripple effect and if there's not enough give, the metal shatters.

Anyone read my recent article in Buckskinner magazine on handgonnes? "Daddy, Where Do Guns Come From?" I was a gunsmith and metal polisher for a large volume gun refinishing shop in Louisiana. Pistol competitor before the Bianchi cup was ever thought of. I have work on but smokeless and blackpowder firearms for the past 35 years. My portfolio has a sheath of gonne designs an inch thick. All based on original medieval pieces. Feel free to visit my humble little webpages at:

http://www.geocities.com/whomisit
http://www.geocities.com/whomisit/gonnes.html

Sorry, I'm concern enough to try and keep someone from blowing themselves to bits. argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by DD
Claypipe
Gonnemeister

[Third_Rail]

Well, isn't that grand. What should we use for metal, then? 4140? 4130?

[claypipe]

Well, isn't that grand. What should we use for metal, then? 4140? 4130?

[argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by CW]

 I've done my time as an apprentice. Did the book work. Over thirty years of experience in gun repair and reloading.

Its hard enough to get handgonnes accepted at ranges and renacting events. We don't need the bad press and restrictive laws that burst barrels and injuries will bring. argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by DD
Claypipe
Gonemeister

[Third_Rail]

And that ends my involvement in this forum.

[John N]

The real strength and beauty of this forum is the free sharing of ideas, the free sharing of personal experiences and the free sharing of real world knowledge of board participants. A positive and friendly tone is the norm. Feedback is on message, productive and respectful. Safety and staying within the law is a paramount concern here. If something is mentioned on the board that might be unsafe or illegal, the issue is quickly addressed and respectfully and fully explained.

This should be obvious to anyone who spends any time on the board.

Cav Trooper, I really appreciate your efforts. Please count me in on this project.

Third_Rail, I ask you to reconsider. YouÂ’ve brought a lot to the board, argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by DD

Hope this makes sense. After reading the recent comments on this thread, my blood pressure started to rise and I felt compelled to respond.

[CAV Trooper]

Claypipe,

Tried the web pages. Both were "unavailable" for some reason. I'll keep checking back.

You do make some reasonable points. However, the question remains on the table... From your experience, what grades of steel and brass/bronze is safe for making handgonnes? 1018, 4140, something else?

As much as we might like to, not all of us have the time and/or the resources to locate and then dig through piles of metallurgy data.

Also, due to the nature of this board, why don't you toss in your ideas on materials for mortars and cannons too? Everybody here is always open to new information.

I have a good deal of experience with BP weaponry over many years and consider safety to be paramount in this sport. If your goal is to help out other people by contributing facts and advice to that end, you'll be welcomed here with open arms.

argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by DD

[CrufflerSteve]

As Rodney King said, "Why CanÂ’t We All Just Get Along?"

I feel somewhat responsible for this. Claypipe is the moderator at another board. He handles a forum on pre-flintlock weapons and seems to be very seriously into handgonnes. I'm new on that forum and sent him a private message asking about the propriety of posting a reference to another board to see about bringing some more people to the buy.

Claypipe: The steels and brass mentioned have been used for a variety of cannon by board members. What steel and brass would you suggest? All of us are deeply concerned with safety so I think we can find some agreement.

Also for Claypipe: The design was picked to keep the price low. It looks like round, square or hex stock can be easily found. Octagonal has to be machined. You seem to have access to large numbers of handgonne designs. Can you suggest an authentic design that would fit well with this project.

I think members of this board see you have just joined so your abrupt style has raised a few hackles. Let's all calm down. If you add some of your expertise this project could be a real winner.

Steve

[Third_Rail]

Everyone - I've been a bit hasty in my statements. Apologies all around.


Honestly, I was scared. I finally made a small cannon (1144SP) and I was getting ready to test it in a few days. To hear from someone who actually knows the metal properties better than I contradict everyone else's suggestion of "it'll be plenty strong", etc., was very frightening.


So I'm here to learn. claypipe - if you'd like to help us out here and tell us some good (safe) steels, brass, bronze, etc. to use, please do.

[CAV Trooper]

So I'm here to learn. claypipe - if you'd like to help us out here and tell us some good (safe) steels, brass, bronze, etc. to use, please do.

My sentiments exactly! I'm always willing to learn.

BTW, I was finally able to bring up his web pages. Really neat original handgonnes but no data on metal. I also looked through the postings on the forum he moderates. Again, interesting info but unfortunately I was unable to find any references to specific grades of metal used to make these things safely.

I can see Claypipe's point about 1144SP possibly being brittle under pressure and am currently leaning towards making the steel barrels out of 4140.

Nothing's engraved in stone yet guys. Any constructive thoughts are more than welcome.

So far, there eight of you expressing interest in a handgonne. Two more and we're on.

[John N]

I poked around some of the suppliers' websites to see what kind of steel they are using. From Cannon Ltd is this:

THE STRONGEST BARRELS MADE TODAY. Our 2nd newest line is our solid cast steel barrels. Featuring ASTM A148 grade 9060 alloy. It has 90,000 lb. tensile strength, 60,000 pound yield and 20% elongation!

The reference to elongation is interesting. Is it is the amount of deformation (or reaction to peak pressure) a certain metal grade can handle and still retain structural integrity and rebound to it's original shape? Can anyone enlighten me?

The reference sticky has a couple URLs that list  the properties of a bunch of different steels. What are the important factors to look for when deciding what to use?

[Third_Rail]

What are the important factors to look for when deciding what to use?

This, too, is what I wonder.

[claypipe]

First let me point out a few of my character flaws. One, I'm as subtle as a sledge hammer on plate glass. Two, I often will demand references to back up a point. Three, displaying ignorance or stupidity when handling either firearms or explosives will get you a swift kick in the pants. Four, I may step on toes, but will grovel profusely when I am in the wrong.

[[argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by CW]

You do make some reasonable points. However, the question remains on the table... From your experience, what grades of steel and brass/bronze is safe for making handgonnes? 1018, 4140, something else?

Something else, for steel, I recommend 12L14. It's popular for precision rifled target barrels and rumored to be the steel of choice for a certain mountain size barrel company.

For brass,
Traditional gunmetal, leaded red brass alloys such as:
http://www.anchorbronze.com/c83600.htm
http://www.anchorbronze.com/c84400.htm

Cannon LTD uses this for their cannons:
http://www.anchorbronze.com/c90300.htm

Not only are these safer, it should cut down wear and tear on tooling as well as save production time.

[argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by CW]

[argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by CW]

[John N]

Claypipe,

 Thanks for that bit of background info. Now that I better understand where you're coming from,  I look forward to seeing more of your posts and continuing my learning curve.  (and I take back that  "disrupter" jab   :lol: ).

[CAV Trooper]

OK...this is good. Now we have some data that we can discuss like rational adults.

argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by DD

To the subject at hand...
As to your metal selections I couldn't find ANY references to 14L12 steel. Did you perhaps get it backwards and meant to say 12L14? If so, this is good stuff and The Canadian Cannon Company uses it for their tubes. It's very easy to machine. My references show that it has a Tensile strength of 78,000psi with a yield strength of 60,000psi. Plenty for a gun tube.

However, due to their properties, I do have to take exception to the other materials you mentioned .

C84400 - Tensile 30,000psi  Yield 15,000psi
C83600 - Tensile 36,000psi  Yield 19,000psi
C90300 - Tensile 45,000psi  Yield 21,000psi

Those yield strengths are within pressures that BP can produce and none of them give me the "warm and fuzzies" as far as safety goes.

On the other hand, C36000 brass is 58,000/45,000 and the CCC uses this grade for their brass tubes. C46400 Naval brass(bronze) has a rating of 75,000/53,000. Strength wise, I think either would be a better choice than the three you listed.

Your thoughts?

[Third_Rail]

I think we may be thinking about the pressure/yield strength wrong...


Also, I can only find 12L14 - is this what you meant?


EDIT:  :oops:  I can't find those brass alloys on OnlineMetals.com.... is 360 H02 suitable for anything BP related?

For 12L14....

Tensile Strength, Ultimate    78300 psi   
Tensile Strength, Yield      60200 psi

Hereis the source. How resistant to pressure is 12L14 in terms of a large bore handgonne or cannon? (1" bore or more) Proper wall thicknesses, etc. - how do I calculate something like that?

[GGaskill]

The problem with calculating material thicknesses and appropriate strengths when making BP pieces is we are missing a fundamental piece of information--the chamber pressure.  What this is is a function of powder type, granulation, friction between the projectile and bore and projectile mass, among other things.  In small arms, the normal way to determine this is experimental firings (the way smokeless loading data is developed), not by calculation.  We don't have a mechanism for doing this, although one could be developed.  What we can do is make our pieces using reasonable materials and thicknesses and safely test (think sandbags, etc.) the finished pieces using at least the charges we intend to use and even double or triple charges and projectiles if we are experimentally inclined.  A critical part of the testing process is keeping records of each experiment including before and after dimensions of the barrels to detect any permanent change due to excess pressure.  We still won't know what the pressure is but we will know it is enough to bend the metal, which is too much.

I think we all know that it is possible with any non-cartridge gun to pour too much powder down the barrel and load too many shot.  Beyond proof testing, this kind of abuse should not be very relevant.

[Cat Whisperer]

The problem with calculating material thicknesses and appropriate strengths when making BP pieces is we are missing a fundamental piece of information--the chamber pressure.    ...   We don't have a mechanism for doing this, although one could be developed.   ....

Agree.  

I've observed range testing in the process of developing loads (for a .50 cal. smokeless round) where the pressure (taken about an inch or three from the bolt face) was MEASURED by measuring essentially the instenatinous expansion via a strain gage placed in a ring around the barrel.  The net result was recorded by a computer, round by round, and the powder charges were incrementally increased for each shot.  Velocity was also monitored.  The load was developed by then picking the charge that would give the required velocity with the lowest peak pressure for a given charge and type of powder.

Could probalby be done for a few hundered bucks if one had the computer and software.

[claypipe]

I think we may be thinking about the pressure/yield strength wrong...

Also, I can only find 12L14 - is this what you meant?

EDIT:  :oops:  I can't find those brass alloys on OnlineMetals.com.... is 360 H02 suitable for anything BP related?

For 12L14....

Tensile Strength, Ultimate    78300 psi   
Tensile Strength, Yield      60200 psi

Hereis the source. How resistant to pressure is 12L14 in terms of a large bore handgonne or cannon? (1" bore or more) Proper wall thicknesses, etc. - how do I calculate something like that?

Oops brain fart! it is 12L14. My rule of thumb is 50% of bore equals minimum wall thickness. So a one inch bore has a wall thickness of half an inch and a total diameter of 2 inches.

The brass is actually bronze and may be a special order alloy.

360 H02 is over a third zinc. Personally, I would avoid it.

[GGaskill]

One should consider the development of the 1861 Wrought Iron Rifle, which (after 500 previous shots) was intentionally burst by loading 7 charges and 13 shot (it was completely filled).  Wrought iron is similar to mild steel, which in my opinion is more than adequately strong for making copies of Civil War and prior generation artillery pieces (assuming proportionate bore and exterior sizes), as long as the shooter uses some restraint in loading.  True, modern powder is probably slightly more powerful than pre-Civil War powder, but no one should be firing a home made piece in the presence of others without having tested it in private.

[claypipe]

[argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by CW]

[CAV Trooper]

OK...[argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by CW].

Now back to reality.  :wink:

Guys,

First off, my PRIMARY concern is safety. ThatÂ’s why IÂ’m doing a rethink on the materials to be used for the handgonnes we want to make. The absolute LAST thing any of us want is for somebody to get hurt.

As far as barrel pressure goes, check out this web site:

http://www.solidrocktechnologies.com/bin/chamber.cgi

This is a calculator that gives you the stress value and safety factor for a gun barrel. Where it asks for “Max Cartridge Dia”, plug in the bore diameter (i.e. .50, .60, etc.). Then input the diameter of the tube (i.e. 1.25, 1.50, etc.). Then put in the TS and YS of a given material and hit “calculate”. The standard that all materials are measured against is 4140 normalized.

Try the values for these different materials and see what you get:

12L14 - TS 78000 YS 60000
1018 -   TS 64000 YS 54000
C36000 - TS 58000 YS 45000
C46400 - TS 75000 YS 53000

C84400 - TS 30000 YS 15000
C83600 - TS 36000 YS 19000
C90300 - TS 45000 YS 21000

The bottom three bronzes donÂ’t come out looking good at all.

[HotGuns]

As one that uses Stressproof quite often I have to agree with Claypipes position about the crystaline structure of it.

In practical application, it could be argued that the 1144 would never see enough pressure to reach its elastic limit, but if it did it would come completely apart. Another thing to consider is the tempature that the chamber would see upon detonation of the powder. It could be that after an extended firing session where the barrel got hot that it could alter the heat treat of the metal somewhat.

This wouldnt be the problem with a steel of lesser heatreat or none at all,because the molecular structure of the metal wouldnt see the same change as one in a heatreated form.

Having studied cyrstalline stuctures of various steels that have been penetrated by amour piercing projectiles of various calibers and bullet makeup, I know that the immediate area of the pierced steel of the metal was quite different than the surrounding area that was unnaffected when checked under a microscope. The two different cystaline structures in the same area often resulted in cracking of the base metal, sometimes taking days after the shooting to become apparent.

With a combination of the heat, constant stretching that occures when a project moves down the barrel and limited amount of surface change that may occur to the metal in the powder chamber area, sometimes the "strongest" material in the rack as measured by tensile strength  may not neccesarily be the best choice.

I have actually been considering building a handgonne and been paying attention to the posts. I had already decided to choose 12L14 for several reasons.One is that it will do the job. Two is because you can haul ass when machining it. Three is because I happen to have lots of it on hand. :-)

[HotGuns]

Claypipe...

I read your post and was impressed by your ability ...

[argumentative/inflammatory remark(s) deleted by CW]

BTW...I like your style.  :grin:
 I' d like to clack glasses and have a drink sometime...
 :toast: