Author Topic: Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two  (Read 12718 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2005, 11:40:14 AM »
I am headed off to Lassen College this Sunday for two weeks of hanging over a lathe or a mill.  I just bought two pieces of 1018 to make trial Tannenberg style gonnes (one straight cylindrical and one single tapered octagon.)  I am looking for volunteers to do some testing of them once they are ready.  You must be able to measure with micrometers (preferably to .0001") and keep accurate records.  If the gonnes are not damaged during testing, you will be able to keep them after the testing is done.  You will have to make your own stock (pole.)

Interested parties please communicate using the forum Private Messaging system.

One further note:  I may or may not get these done as I have a tendency to make bigger plans than I can execute.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2005, 10:15:59 PM »
I finished the cylindrical handgonne and will be sending it off for testing shortly.  I didn't get the octagonal one done; it will have to wait until I get back from a business trip to Orlando next week. 

GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2005, 10:21:55 PM »
I have started work on the octagonal simplified Tannenberg "handgonne;" it will have quite a few hours in it before it is finished.  Unless it could be produced on a CNC milling machine (in which case the original profile would be as easy to produce as any other), I think it will cost more than the market would bear.

All the flats are done; I am drilling the pole socket now.  Should be done soon.

GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2005, 08:19:20 PM »
OK, the octagonal version machine work is finished although it should get at least a little cosmetic attention.

GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Cat Whisperer

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7493
  • Gender: Male
  • Pulaski Coehorn Works
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2005, 12:51:34 AM »
LOOKIN' GOOD!

Thanks for the pix on the setup too!

Is that an indexing head?

Taper?
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2005, 09:33:10 AM »
There are several types of indexing heads; this one is called a collet indexer.  It has 24 positions that can be selected or locked out; it is obviously set for 8 right now.
 
The gonne is tapered with a single taper, about 1 in 85.  The original had different tapers for each section which would have complicated manufacture, hence the title "simplified."  But I think one can be made economically only with CNC and in that case, each section could have its own taper at no extra charge.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline CrufflerSteve

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 180
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2005, 09:35:25 AM »
Quote from: GGaskill
OK, the octagonal version machine work is finished although it should get at least a little cosmetic attention.


That is one beautiful piece of machining. Since handgonnes.com is closed you have a great business opportunity.  :grin:

Steve

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2005, 09:42:38 AM »
A new CNC mill runs around $20K.  Do you think there is enough of a market for these things at $350 to pay for one?  (-:
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline CrufflerSteve

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 180
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2005, 11:53:08 AM »
Quote from: GGaskill
A new CNC mill runs around $20K.  Do you think there is enough of a market for these things at $350 to pay for one?  (-:


I guess I'll see you doing infommercials for 'Handgonnes R Us'. Right up there with the Magnificent Estaban.

Its even worse. Look at http://www.therifleshoppe.com/hand_gonnes.htm

They have a brass Tannenberg for $175. You only have to wait 6 months or more to get it.

Somehow the business model of a 20K CNC mill to make handgonnes probably won't work. Of course, if you're married you could tell the wife it does so you get a nice toy.  :-)
Steve

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2005, 12:02:20 PM »
I suppose if you investment cast them and the only machining done was the bore and pole socket, you could sell them at $175.  But they must have a different profit/wage model than I do.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2005, 08:03:14 AM »
The testing phase has begun and reports should be posted in the near future.  We may even get a test on a bronze version.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline CrufflerSteve

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 180
  • Gender: Male
Trying to Blow Up a Handgonne
« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2005, 06:47:40 AM »
Testing a Repro of the Tannenberg Gonne


This is a beautifully machined repro of the Tannenberg Gonne made by GGaskill.

Specs:
1. 1018 Steel
2. 3/8" diameter by 2" long chamber connected to a reamed .6875", 11/16”, approx. diameter barrel 8" deep.
3. Overall length: 13"
4. Maximum width: 1.6" across the flats, about 1.73" across the corners
5. Inside width of section for pole :1"
6. Outside width of section for pole: nominally 1.35" across the flats, 1.45" across the corners
7 Depth of recess for pole --- 1.5" plus 118 degree included angle point

The deal I made was to get the gonne and extensively test it – possibly to destruction.

Two types of lead ball were used .662” patched ball, average 428 grains and .678” ball, average 469 grains.

The chamber proved to have a powder capacity of 57 grains by volume. By compressing with a dowel, I could get several more grains in.

I used Goex powder, 2f, 3f and 4f for a variety of tests. Since this was partially an attempt to damage it I was continually checking the dimensions which explain the lines on it. The measurement points were every inch except in the chamber and the breech area where it was every ½ inch. Here was the test platform so I could be safely away for the proof loads:



It was build stoutly of scrap hardwood, heavy screws, bolts and glue on a plywood base. The rear was especially strong and designed so it could easily be raised vertical for pouring and ramming. The short tiller was held in place with a hardened ¼” bolt held by a thumbscrew for easy removal for cleaning & measuring.

I built the platform fairly rigid in hopes that it would allow an inaccurate handgonne to be accurate enough to use my chronygraph without blowing up the sensors or skyscreens. That worked out fairly well. It was a blazing hot day at the range so after awhile the chronygraph lost its little mind.

I was also hoping to test penetration of sand with some 5 gallon paint buckets and sand IÂ’d salvaged from a construction site. That did not work well. The balls shattered the buckets and the sand ran out.

Here are some velocity reports. The figures will be reported by powder charge, ball diameter, average velocity in feet per second and energy in foot pounds.
57 gr 2fg, .662, 542 fps, 280 foot pounds
57 gr 2fg, .678, 406 fps, 171 foot pounds
62 gr.2fg, .662, 541 fps, 279 foot pounds
62 gr. 2fg, .678, 460 fps, 220 foot pounds
57 gr 3fg, .662, 427 fps, 173 foot pounds
57 gr 3fg, .678, 377 fps, 148 foot pounds

By comparison, a.45 ACP 230 grain bullet moving at 900 fps has an energy of 413 foot pounds.

The first two series were five shots each. In the third I messed up a patch and got a very, very low speed so I left it out.  As the series went on, I got more and more goofy readings until the last one had one possibly correct reading. I left out other series since I had no way to measure.

I loaded the gonne with 4f which did sound louder but the dimensions stayed the same.

The it was time for proof shots. Not one proof shot but four! Double charge of powder – 114 grains and double balls, either two patched .662 balls ot two lubed .678 balls.

I wish I had all the goodies like the Mythbusters show, lexan blast shields, high speed camera and such. Instead I used a long fuse and left the berm. The shots sounded loud but once again the gone was unchanged in dimension. By the end of the proof shots the ¼” bolt holding the tiller was badly bent and hard to remove but the platform was intact.

The conclusions are that this is one strong gonne. The chamber is undersized for such a heavy piece of steel. GGaskill says boring it out to 7/16 would increase volume by 36% which would give a capacity of about 78 grains. IÂ’m tempted to try that but then IÂ’d have to do more testing. It is such a good looking gonne. It would be a shame, but fun, to blow it up.

If youÂ’re not totally bored by now, the link to the full report is:
http://www.crufflersteve.net/gonne_rpt.doc

Steve

Offline Cat Whisperer

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7493
  • Gender: Male
  • Pulaski Coehorn Works
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2005, 07:05:09 AM »
Excellent.  About what I expected from 1018 - once I looked up the characteristics - not my first impression of CRS.

Thanks for doing the testing.

I'd still like to see (on something with less machine work in it) a test that finds the point at which it does expand to the point of near-failure and then repeat multiple times the charge of just less than that.  That would give results of repetitive shooting survival over time.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2005, 07:58:11 AM »
(-:  If you want to do the testing, I can make a simple cylindrical barrel and send it to you.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline CrufflerSteve

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 180
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2005, 09:27:21 AM »
Quote from: GGaskill
(-:  If you want to do the testing, I can make a simple cylindrical barrel and send it to you.


If you do that, it might be worth doing several cylinders to get better data. The chamber should left out since it complicates the equation. It would be interesting to see if there could be several bore diameter/wall thickness ratios. 1 caliber, 3/4 caliber and 1/2 caliber come to mind. Ideally, you could use the same bore and achieve the ratios by different stock of the same steel to keep as much constant. This might be a bit much to do but it would be interesting to see what happens.

Steve

Offline Cat Whisperer

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7493
  • Gender: Male
  • Pulaski Coehorn Works
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #75 on: August 02, 2005, 10:23:09 AM »
Quote from: CrufflerSteve
Quote from: GGaskill
(-:  If you want to do the testing, I can make a simple cylindrical barrel and send it to you.


If you do that, it might be worth doing several cylinders to get better data. The chamber should left out since it complicates the equation. It would be interesting to see if there could be several bore diameter/wall thickness ratios. 1 caliber, 3/4 caliber and 1/2 caliber come to mind. Ideally, you could use the same bore and achieve the ratios by different stock of the same steel to keep as much constant. This might be a bit much to do but it would be interesting to see what happens.

Steve



Agree.  It definitely takes two identical pieces.  Stretch the first, back off a whisker on the load and see how long the other one takes to stretch.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline CrufflerSteve

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 180
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #76 on: August 02, 2005, 10:42:33 AM »
Quote from: Cat Whisperer

Agree.  It definitely takes two identical pieces.  Stretch the first, back off a whisker on the load and see how long the other one takes to stretch.


(It might be worth moving this to a new thread.)

Identical steel, identical bore width and depth. Different thicknesses of the stock to achieve the ratios. That way identical loads could be done with different wall thicknesses to see where the give point exists. I did a quick look at one supplier. The largest cold swaged pure lead ball I saw was .57. If something like this being done, it might be worth it to avoid cast ball which vary more by size, roundness & weight.

My nightmare with the testing was measuring an octagonal piece with lots of tapers. A straight cylinder would make it easy to measure and find the bulge. Two or more different sizes might show some interesting relationships.

Steve

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #77 on: August 02, 2005, 11:06:29 AM »
Nearest over reamer size is .578" (37/64).  Think that is enough clearance?

I gather the .678" balls fit in the .6875" bore without excessive resistance.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline CrufflerSteve

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 180
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2005, 11:37:43 AM »
Quote from: GGaskill
Nearest over reamer size is .578" (37/64).  Think that is enough clearance?

I gather the .678" balls fit in the .6875" bore without excessive resistance.


.570 balls should go fine down a .578 bore if kept clean. I only needed to lightly push the .678" balls down the .6875 bore. They did seem to be really .678". I just used a little bore butter for lube and put a small wad of newspaper over the powder to reduce powder contamination.

Steve

Offline Powder keg

  • GBO Sponsor
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 752
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2005, 02:17:57 PM »
Thanks guys for taking the time to do this!!! Great job on machining the barrel G!! Later, Wes
Wesley P.
"Powder Keg"
Custom Machine work done reasonable. I have a small machine shop and foundry. Please let me build your stuff. I just added Metal etching to my capabilities. I specialize in custom jobs.
"When the gun is lost, All is lost"

Offline HotGuns

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #80 on: August 04, 2005, 03:45:12 PM »
CrufflerSteve;

Exellent report. I hope to finish testing with the one George sent me this weekend. Then the detailed report.

As of now, Im up to 60 grains with no dimensional changes. After I build a "shooting rig" for it tommorow I plan on going up to 120 grains.
The one Ive got is a cylindrical design and is fairly easy to measure. Theoretically, being round it ought to be stronger than the Tanninberg design.

I really cant see going much past the 120 grain mark as it would be a waste to intentionally ruin the gonne, although I have a feeling that it would take much more than that. Ive been using FFg powder because I have several pounds of it on hand.

I mounted it on a 4 foot long stick that I tapered to match the one in the gonne. I was suprised at the accuracy of it and it had been quite fun to shoot so far.

More coming later... :D

Offline GGaskill

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5668
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #81 on: August 04, 2005, 07:53:16 PM »
OK, it looks like we are going to do another handgonne, this one in 12L14; no bronze ones this time.
 
I will also do a series of load test barrels of 11/16" (.687") bore and 8" depth if someone (could be several testers) will take on the task of testing them.  These will be simple cylinders with a bore and touch hole with the goal of determining what charge of powder and shot is necessary to cause them to permanently expand.  I will make one from 1", 1.25", 1.5" and 1.75" 1018 steel.  The goal is not to make a pipe bomb but to determine (via incremental charge weights) what load of powder and shot is too much so we have some idea of how to safely design future pieces.
 
Interested persons should contact me via the forum PM system.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline CrufflerSteve

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 180
  • Gender: Male
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2005, 06:13:49 AM »
In a forum elsewhere, some relavent data was found in,  Chapter 11 "Blackpowder Pressures" in the third edition of the "Blackpowder Loading Manual" by Sam Fadala, published by the Gun Digest.

Very interesting article. He used copper pipe .05 to .06" thick!

"Test 1: One (230 grain) .535-inch round ball with .013-inch thick Irish linen patch. 100 volume GOEX FFFg blackpowder. Ball seated firmly on powder. Results of test: No discenible damage to pipe"

Test 2 repeated this with 150 grains of FFFg! Same result.

"Test 3: One .535-inch round ball with .013 thick Irish linen patch with 150 volume FFFg powder. Short-started to leave 9 inches of dead air space between the powder charge and the base of the patched ball in the pipe. ... (powder remained in breech, not spread out).. Results of test: No discenible damage to pipe"


I think that with smoothbore of smaller caliber, unless the projectile is too heavy, hand gonnes are not much of a risk.
I think George and I were thinking more about cannon which do blow up. Every issue of The Artillerman has stories of bad things happening - usually to fools, but sometimes to innocent by-standers.

He did further tests which caused failures with short-started powder laying in a trough, leaving air space and with smokeless. These caused failures. He concluded with:

"Test 9: A single 418-grain conical was loaded in the pipe on top of 120 volume GOEX FFFg blackpowder. The bullet was properly seated upon the powder charge. Result of test: The pipe was completely destroyed. ..."

His Test 10 repeated the same procedure with a 100 grain charge with complete destruction of the pipe even though the projectile shot out of the pipe.

These were properly loaded but heavier mass projectiles. The increased pressure needed to overcome the inertia of the heavier bullet blew up the pipe. The inertia was the only thing increasing pressure. With some guns, rifling will also increase pressure.

These experiments were with small diameter smooth bores. Please don't assume they automatically apply to big bore cannon. They certainly explain why I saw no problems with my prooof tests with a massive steel handgonne.

Steve

Offline HotGuns

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #83 on: August 07, 2005, 04:57:54 PM »
The "Handgonne" sent to me by GGaskill....


The text fixture used to shoot it...


Looking over the gun downrange...


Testing the gonne was alot of fun. It started at 60 grains of FFg and everntually went up to 200 grains using both a patched ball and a ball that just barely fit the bore. No dimension changes were noted when measuring with a micrometer that measured to tenths of a thousanth of an inch.

More pictures to come of the fireballs and smoke along with a more detailed report soon... :D

Offline Powder keg

  • GBO Sponsor
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 752
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #84 on: August 07, 2005, 05:21:06 PM »
Nice test stand HotGuns! Does it fold up?
Wesley P.
"Powder Keg"
Custom Machine work done reasonable. I have a small machine shop and foundry. Please let me build your stuff. I just added Metal etching to my capabilities. I specialize in custom jobs.
"When the gun is lost, All is lost"

Offline HotGuns

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #85 on: August 07, 2005, 05:35:34 PM »
No. Its just a simple and quick stand that I screwed together.

I used a bungie cord on it to secure it. By using it as a sighting fixture and sight straight down the barrel for each shot, the thing was suprisingly accurate considering it was a smootbore.

Ive got several 10 second videos of it firing, as soon as I can isolate some frames from it Ill post some good looking pictures.

I stopped at 200 grains as it appeared that most of it was being blown out of the short tube and making some impressive fireballs. Luckily we had a good rain yesterday or it may have set the place on fire. :shock:

I used about a 3.5 inch fuse to give me time to back off about 25 yards behinf a large oak tree. I wasnt worried about it coming apart, but there is no need to take chances ethier.

Offline HotGuns

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #86 on: August 07, 2005, 06:17:31 PM »
Check this out...

A 200 grain shot using a .662 patched ball...


Beautiful !

This one is rather small compared to the 200 grain shot, its a 120 grain shot using another .662 patched ball. Not as much fireball, but lots of smoke...

Offline claypipe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Gender: Male
    • Http://www.handgonne.com
Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #87 on: August 23, 2005, 01:06:23 AM »
Nice pics! Would love to see the movies. :P

Offline Incitatus

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
  • Gender: Male
Re: Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #88 on: March 11, 2007, 05:30:06 AM »
Whatever happened to this project?

I am still interested in obtaining one of these.
NRA Life Member-Patron-Endowment-Benefactor

Offline Cat Whisperer

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7493
  • Gender: Male
  • Pulaski Coehorn Works
Re: Where to Get a Handgonne? - Part Two
« Reply #89 on: March 11, 2007, 06:56:00 AM »
Whatever happened to this project?

I am still interested in obtaining one of these.

Ed -

These can be simple or complex to build.  Why not build one for the contest?  Settle on the design, and I've got (see current contest posting) some pieces of stainless that would make a great handgonne.  You could contract with one of our sponsors or someone local to you to make it - if it's round and has no tapers it is very straightforward and simple.  Faceted sides and tapers are easy if  it's cast but lend more difficulties (more complex setup times and machining) if it's machined.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)