Author Topic: Gun collecting tragedy?  (Read 1559 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Questor

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7075
Gun collecting tragedy?
« on: June 03, 2005, 03:53:42 AM »
I heard on the radio news this morning that police somewhere in the US had taken a wandering Alzheimer's patient home to discover that her husband, a retired doctor, had about 500 guns, 100,000 rounds of ammo, and 800 pounds of powder in the house. They confiscated this, citing that it created a hazardous condition.  Hopefully the doctor has a good lawyer on this.  It doesn't sound like a case of somebody stocking up for armageddon, but rather an enthusiast who had the wherewithal to afford a hobby he loved.  

Have you heard any particulars on this story? I couldn't find a reference in the news sites.
Safety first

Offline victorcharlie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3573
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2005, 04:17:37 AM »
No doubt an enthusiast, but there is a name for people such as these.........Had an old lady busted by the animal police that had 90 dogs in her house...........she couldn't pass one by without taking it home.........

I don't know where you draw the line between enthusiast and obsessive........but 100,000 rounds and 800lbs of powder is getting to the point where it might actually be hazardous.

I think the local Fire Marshal sets limits of how much gun powder can be kept in a private residence and this varies city to city, state to state.

What would happen if there were a fire, and the local fireman came to put it out without knowledge of all that powder.........These are the guys those ordinances are ment to protect.......sounds more like an armory to me.........
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Questor

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7075
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2005, 04:24:22 AM »
If that's the case, I can think of a few people who would be reclassified as obsessive.  I better keep my mouth shut about who they are.
Safety first

Offline MtJerry

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2005, 04:50:13 AM »
The news article I read also mentioned that he was a convicted felon ...  :eek:
:D

Offline roper

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 714
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2005, 04:50:53 AM »
We had a guy last year that had a thing for small rockets building them and such.  Were out in the country so was only afew reports as to what he was doing nobody really check to see how much stuff he had well he blew his house up with him inside and I stopped by later that afternoon only thing stand was a foundation and chimmey.  Stucco house with a tile roof. They found alittle bit of debris and body parts.
Before I moved to Co I lived in San Jose, Ca one day in the paper was a big thing about some guys making bombs with gunpowder blew up a garge they were making them in killing one of the two guys then the anti gun guys got thing pushed within two days that you had to sign for gun powder if buying withing city limits.  Days (months)later in small print on the last page of the paper was what really happened.  these two guy shared a house both shoot skeet had alot of bulk powder in the garge for reloading shotgun shell.  One guy was cooking breakfast got some bacon grease on fire tried to run throught the garge to put it out trippped over a bulk powder blew himself up.  Talk about a bad day.

Offline Questor

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7075
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2005, 05:24:17 AM »
My understanding is that smokeless powder is not an explosion hazard unless it's stored in large cannisters, 50 pounds and up. Is that not true?  I don't see how tripping over an 8 pound keg of Red Dot is going to result in blowing up a house.
Safety first

Offline victorcharlie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3573
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2005, 05:44:22 AM »
This is surely a gray area.   I'm not saying it's obsessive, but I can see how this would raise some eye brows........

9/11 changed alot of things about storage and possession of explosives....i.e gunpowder.........

I think local fire codes allow 8 pounds in a home without any special containers........  Anything over calls for special containers.  I think a wall locker would qualify.  I was suprised to find that the firemarhal determines what can be kept in what quantity.......

I don't think this law is enforced much due to right to privacy laws, and 4th ammendment issues.  Maybe Zachory will clarify this a little...........

I do think there are ligitimate saftey concerns, especially in apartments and townhomes..........where do you draw the line?  Don't ask me!!!!!
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Dusty Miller

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2271
  • Gender: Male
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2005, 09:02:56 AM »
Do you think there'd be a problem with any of that plastic explosives I've got......................oops, I guess I'd best not be talk'n 'bout that! :lol:
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline Questor

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7075
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2005, 09:24:16 AM »
The reason this interested me is that it seemed like a collector was being punished because of his hobby. The convicted felon part is an obvious problem with that.  I'd like to read the whole story. Do you know how I can find it on the web?
Safety first

Offline leverfan

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 823
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2005, 10:17:58 AM »
NFPA495-85, 10-3.7 is the standard for home storage, set by the National Fire Protection Association, and followed by most local authorities.  Up to 20 pounds of smokeless powder may be stored in original containers without a special box around them.  20 to 50 pounds requires that the powder be stored in a powder box (or an old, unplugged fridge is pretty good for this).  50 pounds seems to be the limit for home storage.  These are national guidelines, your local laws may vary.  The NFPA code appears in pretty much every loading manual and free powder booklet, if someone wants to read the actual text.
NRA life member

Offline Flash

  • Trade Count: (82)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2285
  • Gender: Male
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2005, 12:11:24 PM »
A collector being punnished for his hobby??? Come on now! If all that powder would go at once, there would be one tremendous explosion. The battleship Arizona is proof what canvas bags of powder can do when they're ignighted, just think what tin cans will do. This isn't collecting, it borders on reckless public endangerment. The guy was obviously obsessive with a dangerous substance. It's one thing to collect hoards of harmless objects but when you start to mass flamables or explosives, it is dangerous and should be stopped. His neighbors might beg to differ on it being a harmless hobby.
What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger!

Offline Patriot_1776

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
  • Gender: Male
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2005, 12:30:42 PM »
Questor, I think this may be the story you're looking for:

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0605/232983.html

 :D
-Patriot
-Patriot

Offline Robert

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2005, 01:28:30 PM »
Arsenal Found in Elderly Couple's Home  
 Thursday June 02, 2005 5:23pm  
 
 
RIDGEFIELD, N.J. (AP) - A day after police escorted a disoriented elderly woman to her home, they returned with a search warrant and found a massive cache of weapons and gunpowder. Nearly 500 guns, including AK-47s and high-powered rifles, 500 pounds of gunpowder and 100,000 rounds of ammunition were taken Wednesday from the home of Elizabeth and Sherwin Raymond, both 82.

Sherwin Raymond, a former physician and known gun enthusiast, has twice spent time in prison: in the early 1970s for performing illegal abortions and later that decade for selling silencer-equipped submachine guns. Convicted felons are not permitted to own guns.

"People knew he was a (gun) collector, but no one suspected the magnitude of what was found," police Chief John Bogovich told The Record of Bergen County for Thursday's newspapers. "This will be a monumental task to inventory."

Police said they sought the warrant after bringing Elizabeth Raymond back to her home on Memorial Day and seeing the windows and doors open.

Police suspect many of weapons might have been bought at gun shows. Federal authorities are expected to investigate where they were purchased and whether they had ever been used in crimes.

Sherwin Raymond was charged with creating a hazardous condition and his bail was set at $25,000. Police guarded him Wednesday at a Hackensack hospital while he received dialysis treatment. His wife, who was not charged, was taken to a nearby hospital so she did not have to be alone.
....make it count

Offline ricciardelli

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1004
  • Gender: Male
    • http://stevespages.com/page8.htm
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2005, 03:13:43 PM »
Well...interesting reading...but I feel that some salt is required.

First of all, it is New Jersey.  Believe me, NJ is second only to Kalifornia in their ignornace.  I lived there for 20 years, until I couldn't take it anymore.

Secondly, the paper is incorrect in that it states that convicted felons cannot possess firearms.  A convicted felon my apply to have his firearm rights restored, and about 95% of those who apply are granted the return of those rights.

500 pounds of powder?  Duh...  let's see something here.  How would that breakdown?  Say he was a trap shooter and bought 8 pound kegs, and he had 4 or 5 of them lying around, for different gauges.  That is 40 pounds.

Let's also say he was an avid reloader (at one time) and bought 5 pounders of all the different rifle and pistol powders.  My last powder rate chart indicates there are 220 different commercial powders currently available.  So if he had only 80 of those powders, that woudl bring the total to "almost" 500 pounds.  Now ... how many of those containers were full?  We all have 10 or 15 almost empty cans lying around (because we might use it some day", but the cans still say 1 pound, 4 pound or 5 pound on the outside, when in reality there is only an ounce or two inside.

500 firearms?

Nah...you have to realize that NJ cops, lawyers and politicians can't count past 10 without unzipping their pants!

Offline ricciardelli

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1004
  • Gender: Male
    • http://stevespages.com/page8.htm
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2005, 03:16:22 PM »
And I forgot to mention, it took the NJ State Police nearly 18 months to approve my permit for a handgun.

No, this wasn't a permit to carry.

No, this wasn't a permit to own.

This was a permit to purchase!

Offline RickG

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2005, 04:23:13 PM »
Quester

Another link:   http://www.bergen.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk0NyZmZ2JlbDdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5NjcwMzIwNCZ5cmlyeTdmNzE3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTM=

Google News has lots on this story, do news search New Jersey, Firearms

Rick

Offline victorcharlie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3573
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2005, 04:39:03 PM »
You do make some valid points riccardelli.  I suspect there is some liberal left journalism at work here.  both sides, looks like the sharks....er....I..mean Lawyers are going to be busy with this one.....
 
Looks pretty bad for the old fellow if you ask me........especially if all the facts about being a convicted felon are true....

How much powder to do you keep on hand?  I've got a few pounds, less than 10........I'm kind of curious about this!
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline jhalcott

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1869
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2005, 04:42:43 PM »
Hey flash, a news flash for you! Those canvas bags on the Arizona were filled with BLACK powder(an explosive) not smokeless.  I have been to state and local "hearings" on gun possession laws. They, the anti gunners ,would tell all kinds of horror stories and swear they were factual occurences. When confronted with the truth,they would say "IT must have been another person I was thinking of!" Gramma used to say"believe nothing you hear ,and only half what you see"

Offline jgalar

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
  • Gender: Male
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2005, 07:06:45 PM »
I hope by the time I'm 82 I will have aquired 500 guns! I don't need that much powder though - I try to use 5 or 6 different powders for all my reloading so just maybe 25 lbs or so would be fine. I have a lot of loaded rounds ready so I can shoot when I want, don't know how many, never counted. I also enjoy loading so I'm sure I have more loaded than I need.

He had AK47s. So what, so do many other people - nothing illegal about that. He had hi-powered rifles. So what, what do they consider a hi-power rifle - anything that shoots a bottlenecked cartridge?

To me it sounds like an old guy with lots of time and money that has been working at his hobby for longer than most of us have been alive. If he hasn't been a problem in his community leave him alone. Hell, you might be in his will and could have received 50-100 guns had he not been busted.

Offline ricciardelli

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1004
  • Gender: Male
    • http://stevespages.com/page8.htm
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2005, 08:13:31 PM »
Quote from: victorcharlie
How much powder to do you keep on hand?


Honestly?

It's nobody's damn business but mine!

Offline leverfan

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 823
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2005, 10:20:13 PM »
Quote from: jhalcott
Hey flash, a news flash for you! Those canvas bags on the Arizona were filled with BLACK powder(an explosive) not smokeless.


Not to steal the thread, but you're only about half right on this.  The bulk of the charge was made up of a coarse, VERY large grained smokeless powder that was cylindrical in shape.  Only a relatively small amount of black powder is used, because it ignites much easier than the smokeless, and serves as a priming charge.  It is placed in the breech after the smokeless is loaded.  Our battle ships were using duplex loads, not black powder only.

In tests, it was proven that the smokeless powder was the cause of the explosion.  When it was rammed into the breech, the end-to-end arrangement of the smokeless powder cylinders in the bags caused a pressure/heat spike that managed to ignite the charge while the rammer was in place but the breech was open.  The researchers that determined this were able to duplicate the explosion by dropping bags of the smokeless powder, with grains end-to-end, off of a tower.  The results were repeatable.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming..... :D
NRA life member

Offline Flash

  • Trade Count: (82)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2285
  • Gender: Male
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2005, 02:06:20 AM »
Thanks Leverfan. We can't forget the Iowa either. That explosion killed a few less than 50 men and blew the 16" barrel off it's mount. That was also attributed to the nitrocellulose powder charges which weren't contained in nothing more than fabric (silk I believe) bags.
What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger!

Offline victorcharlie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3573
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2005, 02:13:46 AM »
Quote
Honestly?

It's nobody's damn business but mine!



You are again correct...........sorry!
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Mikey

  • GBO Supporter
  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8734
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2005, 03:48:47 AM »
Steve - You're right about NJ cops, lawyers and politcians not being able to count past 10 without unzipping their pants but that only gets them to 11.

Offline ricciardelli

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1004
  • Gender: Male
    • http://stevespages.com/page8.htm
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2005, 04:51:12 AM »
If they have to count past 11 they call in an associate...

Offline Questor

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7075
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2005, 04:07:56 AM »
It would be interesting to follow the particulars of this case. I'd be particularly interested in whether he got is civil rights restored and how the powder and ammo were stored.

As far as the AK 47 is concerned, most any gun collector will have one because of the historic significance of the gun.  As for the high powered rifles, what other kind are there?
Safety first

Offline victorcharlie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3573
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2005, 06:26:13 AM »
Clearly, we are all firearms enthusiast on this forum.........Of all my political "hot buttons", the second amendment is the most important.......not to say foreign policy...etc isn't high on the list as it is........... IMHO, homeland security is the second ammendment........
 
If I want, and can afford 500 guns, that's my business.....(and Steve's).    
 
I already have problems finding black powder as the tax imposed has forced most dealers to drop it entirely as they have to sell a lot of BP to break even.  Isn't this effectively what the Class III tax did to automatic weapons?
 
Until the this surfaced, I never really gave the issue of powder and ammo much thought, as it's common for me to keep and store several thousand rounds of .22lr not counting high power and pistol ammo....We all know how easy it is to go through a 1000 rounds of 22lr in a range session, especially if I take the kids and Grandkids........As I enjoy shooting the muzzle loader more each day, I see the potential for several pounds of pyrodex should I find a good price on it....... As the collection grows, handloading for different cartridges, with experimentation, could add many more pounds that a fellow would have a reason to keep.
 
The "G"man, Gordon Liddy, while a convicted felon, is quick to point out the Mrs. Liddy owns quite a few guns and keeps at least one of them in his night stand drawer.......maybe this is the case with the 82 year old.......all the guns and ammo really belong to his wife!  Yea, the old girl might just like to spend the day at the range........
 
I, in no way, would want to restrict the right to legitimately keep and store ammo or powder, but also understand how the neighbors might feel should I choose to store enough to harm them in the event of a fire or some short of natural disaster.......If I were a fireman, I'd want to know if something was at the scene of a fire that was explosive..........My question, is how much is to much?.......we all know when restrictions are passed, there are always more restrictions that follow....... From looking at the poll, there are a significant number of us who feel the need to possess 25 or more pounds of powder........
 
I'm quite interested in how this case plays out......but it might take several years to go to completion.......If it were me, I'd have to argue that the wife owned the guns......
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline jro45

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1923
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2005, 04:25:16 AM »
I always thought that gun powder was NOT explosive unless confined in a tight container. It pushes it doesn't blow up. Black powder blows up. I may be wrong but this is what I think. :D

Offline Robert

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2005, 06:26:20 AM »
......has twice spent time in prison: in the early 1970s for performing illegal abortions and later that decade for selling silencer-equipped submachine guns. Convicted felons are not permitted to own guns
  Come on guys....we like guns....but THIS GUY aint on our side...He is part of the problem that gives the rest of us a bad rap.
....make it count

Offline Lone Star

  • Reformed Gunwriter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
  • Gender: Male
Gun collecting tragedy?
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2005, 09:09:51 AM »
Quote
Hey flash, a news flash for you! Those canvas bags on the Arizona were filled with BLACK powder(an explosive) not smokeless.
....
Quote
In tests, it was proven that the smokeless powder was the cause of the explosion.  When it was rammed into the breech, the end-to-end arrangement of the smokeless powder cylinders in the bags caused a pressure/heat spike that managed to ignite the charge while the rammer was in place but the breech was open.


These is a little confusion here.  The USS Arizona was sunk by Japanese bombers in 1941 - this was not a loading accident!  The high-level bombers' ordinance penetrated the deck near the #2 turret and set off some black powder which was improperly stored. This caused a flash which traversed the hull setting off magazines and causing the inordinate amount of damage for a single bomb.

Now back to the subject at hand....   :wink: