....Did they kill the goose ?

[ironglow]

That is; Did the unions kill the goose that laid the golden eggs ?
 
   GM is nearly facing bankruptcy...some estimates say that $4000 of every new car goes to pay for lucrative pensions and $1500 of every new car goes for too-generous medical plans..
   Of course; if the goose (GM) dies...then the "golden eggs" dry up.

   Did greed and shortsightedness eat up the goose ?

  They say Ford doesn't look a lot better..
 
   Guess it is relatively easy to see why Nissan, Hyundai, Benz and others chose to build their manufacturing facilities in Right-to -Work states...

    Can't say as I blame them...

[ShadowMover]

Not a Union man eh ironglow? It seems the management of GM and Ford have been making good wages too.  Maybe if management  worked a little harder they could make and design a product people would prefer instead of the imports?  It's real easy to blame unions for the problems of GM and Ford. Do you have any stats on it?  
I worked under a union contract most of my life, it worked for me. Like anything, unions can be abusive, but so can management. A working man has only his labor to sell, and I don't see any reason why he can't bargain for the best price.   Every day of your life is a slice off the loaf, how much will you take for the next slice? We'll be a nation of sharecroppers soon enough though. Those open borders and capital heading overseas, with tax subsidies,  will guarantee we'll be working for third world wages in a few decades.
Not that this will change anyone's mind, it's just for discussion.

[Leverdude]

Funny thing is the Jap vehicles bring a higher price. Might be people are shopping quality more than price. Its easy to blame unions but doesn't really make much sense. The fact is if it werent for unions then the nonunion shops wouldnt be making what they are.

Are some corrupt? Sure they are. What organization that man has ever dreamed up didn't suffer corruption?

Big corperations are just like the Government. They keep as much for themselves as possible & then when the well runs dry they take from & blame the working man.

So less than 1/4 the price of a car goes to the benefit of an employee. Whopee, I wonder where the other 3/4's go.  :roll:

I know I cost more than 25% of a job I'm working on & sometimes alot more. But then again I work for a small company & we dont need to bankroll people with 6 figure salaries who produce zero.

[big medicine]

To be honest I wish I had a union to protect my six. My boss doesnt see any reason I cant work 24 hours straight and then work another 9-10 shift with out sleep. Then come back and do it all over again. And then seems to think it is ok for me to put in 115-120+ hours in two weeks and only pay me for 80 hours.( the worst I had was 156 hours in 2 weeks ) I get no retirement, and I dont even get comp time. A couple years ago I got to work the 4th of July, Thanksgiving, Christmas and New years, no Holiday pay and no time off. I can have 115 hours and only get paid for 80 hours. If I take a 1/2 day off they charge me vacation time for it. No good deed should go unpunished. Thats what you get for being a health care provider in rural America these days. Aint America great. I dont know that I would call Nebraska a right to work state, from my stand point it is more like a get #$%$ed up the six state.

[bullet maker]

Hey Ironglow, if you remeber, we didnt have unions back in the 20, and 30, and look where that got the working man. No benefits, and low wages, that he couldnt raise a family on. Up here in Bartlesvile Okla, there is the museuem of Frank Phillips, (oil typcoon, of the 20, 30 and 40, now deceased). That has several checks, totallying 421 million dollars written to him in one day :eek: . That was back in the depression :eek: .
People (the workers of the same period) when they had a job, made $1.00 per day.
   Remember the old saying (the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer). Well thats what happenes when you dont have a union .

There is an excellent movie coming out, or I should say is already out called the Cinderalla man, true story about a struggling boxer in the depression. The back ground of the movie should open your eyes as to what it would be like without any unions.

God Bless the unions.

bullet maker

Afl-Cio 1289

[ironglow]

I didn't accuse...only asked..
 
   Yes; the big shots are more greedy than the union members in general...but they can get away with it.
  When the product is too expensive to sell, Mr. big shot just moves onto another job...again at pretty good pay....or he takes his stock options etc. and retires.....that's just how things go !
 
   Some of the assembly workers will find decent jobs ...many won't !
  So...who wins in the long run..

   Having worked both union and non...I realize that union bosses do their best at fostering an Us-vs-Them mentality ( it provides them a sort of "job security". After all, if the workers and management cooperated, got along and did the best they could for each other....who would need the union ?
 
  When you think it over though...ideas that the average assembly worker should make as much as members of the board of a company, is a bit presumptive, is it not ?
  Joe blue collar generally doesn't have the education, business acumen or the connections ( fraternities etc.) that board members do..and probably is not as willing to "kiss-up" to management...
   
    Just the facts of life !
   
   A neighboring county to me is near going broke. The County exec the mayors etc for the most part are a bunch of double-dealing politicians...
 but "the people" elected those same clowns.
   It is pretty much a "one party" county....DUH !
 
    The biggest employer in that county is government...federal, state and local..
   
    There used to be steel, autos, milling etc...but that's history...( I can recall some of those "steel workers" boasting how they used to spend most of their shift... reading books and whatnot)

   A couple years ago the teachers for the one major city "negotiated" a contract...replete with generous vacations, many "sick" days and unbelieveable pensions...and that is just ONE of the unions municipalities are dealing with....
 
     Negotiated is only a term...the teachers union had the schools over a barrel and knew it....and the "one parety" county was run by a political party that the unions have in their back pocket.

   Looks like the county may go into insolvency. If it does all those various lucrative contracts are off the table.

   With the arrogant attitudes that the various union leaders have shown the public....I almost hope it does.

    Thusfar, the politicians and the unions have been sucking it up at the trough....the one that has been really suffering is poor old John Q. taxpayer...

   THe school teachers demand ridiculous contracts....they may be justified if they were "producing"....but they are turning out a product that generally, is far inferior to what the Catholic/Christian schools are producing for a fraction of the cost.

   Perhaps if they spent more time teaching reading by phonics and less time putting condoms on cucumbers...they may do better.

     I am only suggesting that if a person collects X number of dollars per hour for their work, it behooves them that they make sure they really earn it...
    No goofing off or refusing to do any work ...."because it's not my job description"...
   
    Surely, if we don't want to give 8 honest hours of productive work for 8 hours pay, someone in Taiwan, Mexico, Argentina or Maylaysia will be willing to.

    The malaise produced by socialist countries such as France & Germany  comes directly from such featherbedding.

  I am not defending the big shot bosses...they are the greediest ones,
but they are not the ones that hurt the most by another industry moving out.
 
   As I said previously I have worked both union and non-union. By far, the best work situation was when I worked for firms that were not union but treated their employees as if they were...

    Some of my most distressing times were when I was prevented from working by some silly rule:
  For instance; one time I was working in a refinery in the South. I went to hook into "company (compressed)air" so I could sandblast and spray.
  I was informed..."you can't do that !"..
  I ask why; "I run compressors all the time...here's my hose, there's the connection"...why not ?

   OH...I must have a "stationary engineer" connect the hose...

   "Well, where do I find him ?"...

      " Oh; he may be at the snack bar ..or maybe in the smoking area or in the guard shack yakking."

   After 45 minutes fruitless search...I went ahead and hooked myself up.

  Oh, I know the union "storm troopers" could have hasseled me but I believe that if I'm getting honest pay for an hour's work...I owe the boss an hour's honest work...otherwise I'm STEALING..

   No telling how much thievery the "stationary engineer" got away with each day...but my conscience is clear...

    Frankly I always had trouble generating enough HATE to maintain an Us-vs-Them attitude...

  I would rather be congenial and get along...

  Just my two cents...may not be worth a penny to you...!

[bullet maker]

Hey Ironglow

    More and more of the companies, are like what Big Medicine, describled not what you described. What you were describing is far and few inbetween. We have already gone back to the depression era type mentallity, and our grandkids, are having to pay for it, when they reach the job market age. I for one dont want my grandson to have to work like Big Medicine does. Do you want you grandchildren to have to? I think not.

   As far as the companies that go overseas? We dont need to give them a tax break like they are getting now, they are no better than Jane Fonda, in my books, and should be teated as criminals.

thats my :money: worth.

bullet maker

[bullet maker]

Hey Ironglow,

   But I do whole heartily agree with you on the teachers, union.  I agree with you about them teaching our kids to put condoms on cucumbers,  :-D  :-D . If it wasnt the truth, it would be funny. And I might add that everyone should check to see what your school district is teaching our kids. I have heard that they are making our kids take home books now and read about homo life style :twisted:

bullet maker

[ShadowMover]

It's easy to point out abuses by unions, and the petty protective measures used to keep jobs. Maybe there was a real reason, maybe it was featherbedding. For every union abuse story we can find one where management caused every bit as much loss through theft, stock manipulation, and greed.  We can relate to the small ones, but we can't relate to the Enrons , the inside trading, and the special tax breaks.
The bottom line is the US has the most productive work force in the world. We make more product (goods and services) per man hour than any other place in the world. The rate of production has been going up a lot faster than the wages have. Why? It is also a fact the majority of the wealth in this country is getting concentrated in a smaller and smaller fraction of the super wealthy.  The trend is towards two classes of people, the very rich and the very poor, with the middle class sinking towards the poor.  Spending money we don't have, overseas industrial production, illegal immigration, and having dumbed down schools are helping this trend. Has anyone looked at the list of Spelling Bee winners lately? You are looking at the new bosses.  Things are changing, and the unions are not the cause, they are the palm trees on the beach when the storm surge comes in; in trouble just like the rest of us working stiffs.

[jhm]

If they havent KILLED it, they sure have gotten all the feathers plucked off and ready for the pot  :-D      JIM

[magooch]

As a person who was a very strong union member for more than 37 years, I believe there are two things that unions have screwed up.  

1) In most cases the union leadership has sold out to the Dumbocraps.  I've always thought that unions ought to play it smart and work both parties.  Why shut yourself out at least half of the time.  

2) Most unions have really missed the boat on pensions.  Having a defined pension benefit might be the safest form, but we're finding out now that that isn't always the case, e.g., the airlines pensions and probably some of the United Auto Workers and others.

Unions should have bargained for X number of dollars per hour to be paid into an individual account for each worker.  These accounts would be the property of the worker and would be portable.  There would naturally have to be rules and restrictions on the management of the funds, but you wouldn't have to worry that the business would go belly up and that your pension would disappear.  

I know of people whose pensions were handled as individual accounts and where the monies were conservatively invested and managed.  These folks today are enjoying pensions that are paying them multi-thousands per month.  They are not worried about the longevity of their previous employer or some shakey government insurance plan to keep them solvent.

[big medicine]

I think the theory is good to protect they worker from the kind of BS that i'm stuck with. Get a fair days wages for a fair days work. What I dont think is good is protecting dead weight and lazy worthless workers. If you dont do your job you hit the bricks, being in a union should not be a free ticket to screw off all day and not get fired. On the other hand employers should not be able to work your nuts off and not pay you or compensate you for your time.

[wareagleguy]

I have got to chime in on this one...
Anyone talking down the unions has never been in one and most of what I hear here is bunk!  My mother just retired with 34 years of teaching in public schools and in the union.  With a phd (same number of years educated as a MD) she retired making $38, 340 per year.  While that is allot of money for some it's nothing if you consider the effort and cost it takes to become a phd.  Today, someone will need about $250,000 to become a phd.  The people that make the money in education isn't the people in the union but the "managers" which are NOT union.  This is true with the auto workers and most other union situations.  Until people start seeing the truth and get your head out of the sand you are going to find that every job is going to be worth less and less each year.  Why do you think old GW refuses to stop the Mexicans from coming from Mexico?  At one time this country got free labor with slaves.  Now, the fat cats can't get free labor but they can get the next best thing...cheap labor.  Unions can stop this.   I have said this and I know it's true...Things are going to have to get bad before people put a stop to it.

[FWiedner]

So what you're saying is that your mother worked to get a good education, made a poor career choice, and now it's somehow society's fault that she's not living in the lap of luxury as a retiree on a state pension?

Pardon me, but I believe that you should re-examine just exactly who has their head in the sand.

She wanted to be a tool of the state, and now you see how the state treats it's tools.

She's still sucking money out of the public till and nothing is being returned to the taxpayers.

I agree that GW's plan is to dilute the labor market with cheap labor, with the larger goal of lowering everyone's standard of living, but I believe that your mother's situation is one of her own making.

She's doing much better that many retirees.

 :?

[Brett]

Brdavis - $38 K + a year for working all of 9 months out of the year doesn't sound bad to me.  And let's not forget tenure which gives teachers the ability to sit on their heinies if they choose and do nothing for the rest of their carriers after they have made it threw the first few years .   I'm not saying your mother was not a good teacher dedicated to her students but I'm willing to bet you that she could tell you about many of her colleagues that were there for the free ride.

 
Ironglow said:
 "I am only suggesting that if a person collects X number of dollars per hour for their work, it behooves them that they make sure they really earn it...
No goofing off or refusing to do any work ...."because it's not my job description"...

Surely, if we don't want to give 8 honest hours of productive work for 8 hours pay, someone in Taiwan, Mexico, Argentina or Maylaysia will be willing to."

I concur.

After putting myself thru school and earning two degrees I've worked low level management, salaried positions where I had to work 60+ hours a week for 40 hrs pay and saw high school drop outs in the plant collecting fatter checks than me due to overtime and bonuses.  And when the union went out on strike I sat home with out pay just like them only I did not  come back to a nickle raise and a better benefit package. I also found it impossible to get summer jobs in my field of study while working my way thru college due to the unions.  

Yes upper management is often greedy and top heavy in large corporations. However if it were not for these executives and managers running these big corporations there would be a lot fewer jobs for blue collar workers.  Many unions are every bit as greedy as these big executives as well. $21 an hour + full benefits for a high school drop out to put lug nuts on a car as it travels down an assembly line, or 45K for a school teacher in a wealthy suburban school district who works 9 months out of the year and practically can not be fired for not doing there job... let's be real.

[Taff]

Surely this topic is totally redundant in the new world we live in, with so called globalization (make it in the cheapest country). The power of the unions is a thing of the past,but the fight to keep people in work still exists. We had a primeminister called maggie Thatcher who closed the coal mines, steel works, ship yards etc because we could buy all these things cheaper abroad, modern industries is what its about she said, computers , service industries,banking. this was Ok for several years, but now the big cooperations are moving this abroad because its cheaper, So what are we left with apart from jobs in the government ? not a lot.
If I wring my phone company its answered in India, same goes for the banks and most insurance companys. Unemployment figures are kept low by not including people in education or calling them long term sick.Borrowing is at a all time high with youngsters not being able to get on the housing market, Yes unions did abuse there power back in the past but the average man in the street needs them now more than ever. Just my rant from this side of the pond.

[wareagleguy]

Oh yes,
The post here prove it.  Exactly what I hear all the time.  Killing the unions.  Ending public education.  All going to the toilet and I believe ANOTHER GW will be elected in the do the same dirty work for the GOP.
 
And everyone will cheer!!!
 
Like I said...things are going to have to get VERY bad before people have had enough.  I just hope folks wake up.
 
I think it is a sad when I hear people say that my mother made a mistake (or choice) in becoming an educator.  Where does that kind of thinking come from?

[FWiedner]

Could it be from a parent that is tired of hearing that faggotry is a lifestyle choice, and that it's not important for little Pepito to learn english as long as he's happy?

Could it be from a hunter that is tired of hearing how hunting Bambi is murder, and that man's oldest working skill has no place in today's world?

Could it be from a homeowner that is sick of hearing that the gun that is available to protect his family is a dangerous and evil thing, and that a gun owner is a criminal waiting to happen?

Maybe it's from that father who is trying to teach his son to be a man, but has to compete with the NEA socialist that  drums pacifism and unearned self-worth into a child's head 6 hours a day.

Maybe it's from that mother that is sick of hearing how much of a victim men at large will make her daughter or how the state can make her equal to a man.

I had to teach my kids to read and do math.  They both read and did multiplication before they walked into kindergarden.  No "educator" did that.  No educator helped.  They insisted that they learn "sight words" instead of trying to sound words out to actually read them.

Educators wanted them to spend their days cutting flowers from construction paper and learning that cartoon-like animals have rights too.

"Educator" is a misnomer for any of the teachers that currently stand or have stood in a classroom during the last 20 years.

"Socialist Mouthpiece" is much more descriptive.

I'm sure your mother is a fine and lovely woman, but you asked where such disdain for "educators" comes from.

Sorry if I offend.  It's JMO.

 :x

[ironglow]

Hey !   ...Something is wrong....I find myself agreeing completely with  FW..!
     Seriously; FW has articulated the point very well...

    So the management is sometimes ridiculously greedy...and will sell out long term interests for short term gain. Those individuals are trying to " get theirs and get out"..before the whole thing falls apart.
      That is perhaps the top 2 or 3 in management involved...if they choose to sacrifice thousands of jobs for their greedy lucre.
     Although the union members demand what they know to be exorbitant renumeration...they are thousands...and with their collective bargaining wedge, can drive a corporation to make stupid " get mine and get out  before the whole thing comes down " decisions...

   Do two wrongs make a right
     
    The county I spoke of is Erie county in NY, with Buffalo as it's major city.
  A few years ago, teacher's contract came up...with the City already in difficult financial straits.
  BR's mom making 38K is about where new teachers were starting at in Buffalo....but the union demanded a huge increase, across the package.
   
        They had the " elected leaders" over a barrel...
 
     How so ?
     Well, as I said...this benighted state is basically a "one party" state...so the unions have most of the politicians in their back pocket..
no funds...no re-election.
     The politicians were getting pressure from the voters to open the schools...no votes, no re-election...
 
   So, a "political decision" was made. The pols of the time decided to "get ours and get out"....both the politicians and the union "sold out" the taxpayers they claim to be "serving".

   A few years ago the TRICO company was located in Buffalo...that is where they were invented and where they continued to make windshield wiper products....
    One day the union bosses decided to ask for big increases...their pay  was already at a pretty decent scale..
  Negotiations ensued..couldn't agree..

   Remember all negotiations were for MORE bennies for the union, not less...so any movement was all positive for the union members..
   The company several times offered what it could..union says "NO"!

   Finally TRICO says; " Can't give any more..it would break our company, so here's our final offer...".

  After some time for consideration, the union said in effect.." we think you're bluffing (lying)".

   Do any of you guys know where TRICO wiper blades are being made ?
   
   They're not being made in Buffalo...

  BR...I am sure your Mom is a fine lady and her situation may be very different than many around here..
 
   Here, teachers get a decent wage, yet some still complain about it..
   When they complain, they may mention teacher's wages...and exhibit only the starting wages...not the wages of those with some extra bennies and seniority..
  As a non-teacher I would have liked to have my old wages..perhaps equivalent to a starting teacher wage....along with the teacher's other "extras"...such as:
 
    A) Work 180 days per year.

    B) Of that 180 days, have for the most part perhaps 30 or more paid "sick days"

    C) Any "sick days" I don't use I can accumulate...and take home a nice nest egg when I retire.
       
      ( I was one of those guys that would usually go several years between sick days).
   
      D) Be able to attain "tenure", whereby if I felt so inclined, I could lapse into complete incompetency, confident that my job was safe..

      E) Retire with accumulated bennies that totaled up, would surprise many people..depending on tax area...free complete medical , dental and health insurance paid etc., etc.
       I have a brother and sister-in-law that recently retired with about $106 K per year between them , not counting their investments, SS or other sources...just pension...and in this state where the unions own the politicians they pay NO state tax on their pensions..as the rest of us do..
   
 Now , they were very competent and never complained about their wages as some do incessantly....but the incompetents get the same package ...


   The city of Buffalo was once called " The Queen city of the Great Lakes", but now is turning into a backwater has-been...but it is still a strong "union town"..(what has the union done for them ?)
 
   That city has perhaps 1/2 the population that it had in 1950. Unfortunately, as in many such towns...it is the workers and go-getters that leave....those on the public dole that stay...so prospects are not great.
  There is much to offer industry...abundant electric, abundant water, transportation etc...but the labor/political/tax climate is not condusive for industry to locate here.
   The situation could be saved, but don't hold your breath...
The politicians could make NY a "right-to-work" state...allowing fair competition on job bids and open competition for labor and markets.

   But alas...the unions OWN most of the politicos....so the politicians will get theirs, get their fat pension and move out of state (in spite of their special tax break) and let the area die...

   ...And it all started with the "people", not being smart enough to change their political leaders often enough...like a baby's diaper...and for the same reasons...

   ....Food for thought..................Ironglow

[ironglow]

TM7 & BRdavis..

   Interesting how you blame GW for the illegal immigration problem, and globalization..
   
   I think both major political parties are at fault...and in this case "a pox on both their houses".

   To illustrate your bias:

    Immigration: So Bush is responsible for for the continuation of the stream of illegals...
   Which, pray tell...Demoncrat is fighting such intrusions into our soverignty ?  Teddy, Barney, Eleanor Holmes norton, Kerry, Biden, Dr. Dean ( of the Dean-Witter millionaires)Demo  party chairman ?...Or perhaps "Sheets" Byrd...?

    Seems the Dems are the ones sponsoring drivers licenses, medical care and multi-lingual classes for the "illegals"...( let's not play Liberal word games, such as "undocumented" ).

     Seems like it's the very liberal ACLU (Dems fellow-travellers) that is trying to keep the Minute men from securing our borders....
 
   Correct me if I am wrong, but the only voices I hear on the subject that are speaking out strongly against the illegal border crossings are Republicans...A. Schwarznegger, Tom Tancredo, John Kyl, J R Hayworth and others...

   Globalization:

      Wasn't BJ Clinton big on globalization.....surely that is the aim of the UN, which wants to "globalize" everything... and the Dems are all for the UN.
   Only the Republican/ Conservatives seem to want to call the UN by it's proper name...a bunch of "bait-and-switch" bribe takers..

   The Dems are even fighting at this very moment, against the appointment of a UN delegate that might expose that gang of flim-flam shake-down artists for what they are....

   Please be honest with yourself...the ones that are truly for one-world govt are the Dems..

    Remember "It Takes a Village"...well it takes a "village idiot" to fall for the smoke screen...

[jhm]

Well from what I have read here they want to blame the upper management for their lack of achievement in the feed trough, well fellows where to you think they get the upper management people it from the group who isnt satisfied to have someone else speak for them, they are the ones who have enough backbone to get the education and to succeed in life, I came out of the auto industry, started on the line and and saw what the union was like, every year every job had a para. 78 written (TOO MUCH WORK) for those who dont know even if the job didnt change or no line speed increase, there are usually 2% of the work force who are usually the trouble employes, the rest will do their assigned jobs, now the union spends 98% of their time helping the 2% and the 98% get 2% of the unions assistance, If you think the union is for you try and talk them into forgiving the union dues that they TAKE out of your pay and see who will be doing the screaming, Monday when you go into work look around and see the fellow emp. take a good look and see who is really putting forth a good days work and the sluffers and then think back and remember which ones are the constant one with the union stewart holding their hand, now I am sure you think I am anti union or as another poster said once negatiove well ok be it so but I have always felt I was man enough to state my own case and didnt need another to hold my hand do it for me,      JIM

[Taff]

Iron Glow - you are right about what government employes get,even in the Uk they have 6months full pay sick and 6 months half pay sick, the government pays 11% of there salary value into there pensions,susidized loans etc but the unions do not have to fight that hard for this as the people who make the final decision are the people who will benefit the government employes. As for immigration both your parties are to blame as only people from 3rd world countrys can get in, unless you are sponsored by a company, the Us only wants cheap labour, the theory being this will keep jobs in the US, but what it is really doing is driving down the living standards of the working classes.

[Leverdude]

Probably not fair to lump muncipal workers in with others who have to produce a marketable product or perform a service for a customer who can go elsewhere. Teachers, police, firefighters, garbagemen, dpw, parks & rec here all have unions to protect them but since a taxpayer has no option they dont even almost have to deal with reality.

I'v been union & nonunion thru the years & am certainly not your average "union guy" but the fact is, in construction here in CT union & nonunion compete against one another & I suppose keep one another in check. We are a right to work state & I think its a good thing.
The only difference between the company I work for now & the one I left to come here is my benefits. My old boss paid me about the same wage & charges guys out at the exact same rate. Only difference is he gets to keep an extra $8 or $10 per hour that my present boss pays in benefits.

I think the right to work idea has strong merit as it lets the independent guys in to keep the unions real, otherwise they turn into a municipal type work force who doesnt need to perform to collect a check, just put in time.
Big difference is it can drive a buisness into the ground or out of the area, a town on the other hand just raises taxes till the old people move out & new ones who dont remember what it was like before, move in & pay their taxes like good little boys & girls.

[ShadowMover]

This guy, Charley Reese, seems to have a good line on the situation.
http://reese.king-online.com/Reese_20050613/index.php
This link seems to be bad, sorry about it. I'd post the article but I think it's copyrighted.
edited 6/14/05