Author Topic: 3 pellet velocity!  (Read 2466 times)

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Offline iisabigone

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3 pellet velocity!
« on: June 15, 2005, 03:44:29 AM »
Hey guys I took my encore and omega out yesterday and shot them again with the pyro pellets and 250 shockwaves.

Im still very shocked and pleased at the accuracy Im getting with the omega and the 150 grain pellet pyro pellet charge and the 250 shockwave.

Has anyone actually chronographed the 250 grain shcokwave with 150 grains of pyro pellets out of a 50 cal omega or an encore?

How about the 200 shockwave and the 3 pellet charge?

Offline Redhawk1

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2005, 09:00:13 AM »
This will not answer your question, but I found no real advantage to 3 pellets opposed to 2 pellets. The added recoil was not worth the speed. Also my groups were always better with the 2 pellets.  JMHO  :D
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Offline herb40

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yhree pellets
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2005, 02:57:25 PM »
I  use three pellets of triple 7 in my omegas. I get great accuracy with both the 250 shockwave and sst . I use the black long petal high pressure sabots from mmp. This load will shoot 1.5" groups approx 2175 ft per second.
 
   I have used this load on several deer, it will usally drop them on the spot , you wont be doing much tracking with this load.

Offline Norseman112

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2005, 03:26:20 PM »
I am fairly new to muzzle loading and I bought an omega last summer. I shoot 200 gr shock waves with 2 pellets of triple 7. At 100 yrds my holes were all touching. At 200 yrds I had a 2 inch group. I have a 3x9 nikon for optics. I have never tried 3 pellets. I would be curious as to how much more speed and energy I would gain though.

Norse

Offline Redhawk1

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2005, 12:36:40 AM »
Quote from: Norseman112
I am fairly new to muzzle loading and I bought an omega last summer. I shoot 200 gr shock waves with 2 pellets of triple 7. At 100 yrds my holes were all touching. At 200 yrds I had a 2 inch group. I have a 3x9 nikon for optics. I have never tried 3 pellets. I would be curious as to how much more speed and energy I would gain though.

Norse


You would gain about 250 to 300 fps. But what I found is my groups got bigger. Not worth the extra recoil and inaccuracy. IMO.  :D
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Offline Norseman112

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2005, 12:48:01 PM »
Well then I stick to 2 pellets. Thank you Red hawk.

Norse

Offline Redhawk1

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2005, 02:55:18 PM »
Quote from: Norseman112
Well then I stick to 2 pellets. Thank you Red hawk.

Norse


I have had nothing but good luck with two pellets. Accuracy, lower recoil and complete pass through shots on deer. Longest deer shot at 125 yards with my Encore 50 cal and two pellets.  :grin:

Good luck and let us know how you make out.  :D
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Offline AndyHass

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2005, 02:55:12 PM »
110gr loose 777 with a 200 SW gives me 2100 fps in my Omega.  3 pellets is the equivalent to about 120gr, so 2175 sounds about right to me.
  Guns differ...mine shoots wonderfully at 110gr (and a lot worse at 120).

Offline Omega

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2005, 03:18:58 PM »
Shot these loads from my Omega yesterday.
3 pellets Pyro - 250 SST - 2250fps
3 pellets Pyro - 200 SW - 2479fps.
Fabulous accuracy, wouldn't dream of anything less!
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Offline Two Bears

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2005, 05:28:08 PM »
I will answer your question with my question.....................WHY 3 pellets ?

I don't see any advantage of the use of 3 pellets or 150 grains of powder, many people have too many problems shooting their guns with 150 grains that I can't see / justify trying the load.

100 grains will has enough energy to harvest any animal you would ever hunt for..... world wide.

Can of worms now open.......How far do you think you have the need to shoot at an animal?

And if you sight in at long range  like 200-300 yards how will your rifle shoot at 30 yards or less?  

Maybe I am old fashioned but I just don't see the need to load these black powder rifles to extreme like that ( even though the rifles are proofed to that much of a load and pressure).............I think it is just a way for the makers to sell the "new thing" and all marketing and hype just to sell these rifles to the public which is easily swayed to believe that you need that gun to shoot such a load............. ITS ALL SMOKE  :grin:
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Offline Redhawk1

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2005, 04:12:52 AM »
Quote from: Two Bears
I will answer your question with my question.....................WHY 3 pellets ?

I don't see any advantage of the use of 3 pellets or 150 grains of powder, many people have too many problems shooting their guns with 150 grains that I can't see / justify trying the load.

100 grains will has enough energy to harvest any animal you would ever hunt for..... world wide.

Can of worms now open.......How far do you think you have the need to shoot at an animal?

And if you sight in at long range  like 200-300 yards how will your rifle shoot at 30 yards or less?  

Maybe I am old fashioned but I just don't see the need to load these black powder rifles to extreme like that ( even though the rifles are proofed to that much of a load and pressure).............I think it is just a way for the makers to sell the "new thing" and all marketing and hype just to sell these rifles to the public which is easily swayed to believe that you need that gun to shoot such a load............. ITS ALL SMOKE  :grin:


My thoughts exactly.  :D
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Offline SURVEYOR

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2005, 05:34:15 AM »
What ever works for you. It's hard to tell Omega and Andy thier heavy loads don't fit the bill after they've spent the time working up their loads and tuning their rifles. Both of them kill enough game in a season to feed a small village or more. And they have the pictures and videos to if'n they wanted to, but they don't.

With that being said, "look at me shooting 85 grains of 777 ffg pushing a 460 to 500 grain lead conical."

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Offline iisabigone

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2005, 06:32:11 AM »
surveyor Im the kinda guy that just has to see it for myself!  I like shooting the black powder rifles and spend a great deal of my offseason working up loads.

Since I first shot the pellets a couple weeks ago in my encore and omegas I have been shooting pellets and swabing and measuring and shooting some more.

I have found in one of my omegas and my encore thus far the 3 pyro pellet charge is just as accurate as 2 pellet charges.

The season is still a long way off and I am working with 5 rifles trying to figure out which one to hunt with this year and what load I will be stuffing down its throat.

                                        iisabigone

Offline SURVEYOR

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2005, 08:21:38 AM »
That's the fun of it iisabigone! Very rarely do I try to tell someone what to shoot, because 9 time out of 10 nobody lessens to me any ole how. But I read alot on these sites and it alway amazes me of the different rifles, bullets, and loads people shoot. Mind boggling to say the least. Knowing you, you're all over the board. You got every style covered. :grin:  
 
I love going to the range, with my Whites of course. I had these 2 guys next to me sighting an break action muzzleloader. I didn't get close enought to see what brand. Nice looking rifle with a broke dog leg stock thou. Well I get ready to shoot with my wife measuring for me. I look over and see them drop a pellet down the barre. I shoot. My wife measures. I load. I hear them shoot. I look over and one is looking through the spotter scope. I shoot. Reload, and shoot. Reload and shoot for about 5 times. I hear them shoot agin. I take a smoke break and watch them. That's 5 shots to 2 with me taking my good ole time. The guys swab the barrel, look at me and ask why am I shooting lead bullets. Then tell me I need to get some of them jacketed sabot bullet to be able to shoot worth a damn let alone kill a deer. I tell them OK? With the pellets down they short start a sabot round, then both of the have to push the darn thing down. I thought they were going to have to borrow 2lb stake driving hammer to send her home. Before the could get her loaded, I load and shoot 10 more times doing about 2 a minute. Nothing fast you know. I look through my spotter scope and all 15 rounds were in a 2 inch or less 100 group right where I want em. I turn and watch shot number 3 of their's go off. Then guy looking through the spotter scope said, 3 inches high 5 inches to the right. I give the down range signal to retrieve my target. Picking mine up I look at their 4 shot 10 to 12 inch group. I get back to the table with them in a little fight about what the hell do you want out of a muzzleloader. That's about a good as you're going blanky blanky get out of one of these. I start getting all my stuff together but one of the guy starts complaining about all that damn smoke I've made. He can't breath or see. Then he writes down the powder and bullet I need to get to be able to shoot a muzzleloader and be ready for deer season. I just grin at em. My wife gets pissed. I get her in the truck and head home. I then tell her every body wants to be an expert even if they are or not.  
 
So every body keep on keep on, but never under estimate the shooter next to you.
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Offline iisabigone

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2005, 09:08:33 AM »
Surveyor  We know what the white is capable of. Thats why I dont shoot the white much anymore!  Its so boring! Shoot a round, pour powder, drop bullet, seat bullet, cap primer, shoot.  Bullseye!  Mine will wallow a hole in the target snuff can size all day long at 100 yds without swabbing.

I know what rifle Im reaching for when Im hunting on stand in the woods where my shots are going to be 100 yds or less. 70gr of 777 with the 460 NE is depedable for me.

Experimenting with all the new muzleloading stuff is a lot of the experience for me.  Im just having a ball playing with all these new toys!  And the selection of rilfes, bullets, powder and accesories is absolutly mind boggling. Some work, some dont and I laugh at a few but I got a lot of time to kill before the rut kicks in high gear this fall and Im having a ball pulling the trigger and making smoke.

                                                                   iisabigone

Offline SURVEYOR

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2005, 09:28:24 AM »
I hear YA! I need to pull my Cabelas Legacy out and shoot it some. I did a lot of work on that first MLer of mine. It's the only one I own that has made a 200 yard kill.

Have Fun! If we don't have anything, we can have fun.

Jules

ps; let's see some pictures
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Offline Omega

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2005, 02:22:06 AM »
Quote from: Two Bears
I will answer your question with my question.....................WHY 3 pellets ?
 


My question is - if you and your gun can shoot the load accurately why wouldn't you use 3 pellets?

 
Quote
And if you sight in at long range  like 200-300 yards how will your rifle shoot at 30 yards or less?


200 yard zero on my Omegas has me 2" high at 50, peak of the apex is 3.8" high at 125 yards.
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Offline Redhawk1

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2005, 02:48:01 AM »
Quote from: Omega
Quote from: Two Bears
I will answer your question with my question.....................WHY 3 pellets ?
 


My question is - if you and your gun can shoot the load accurately why wouldn't you use 3 pellets?

 
Quote
And if you sight in at long range  like 200-300 yards how will your rifle shoot at 30 yards or less?


200 yard zero on my Omegas has me 2" high at 50, peak of the apex is 3.8" high at 125 yards.


If you really looked at the advantage of 3 pellets vs. 2 pellets you would know. The added velocity about 200 to 300 fps is not going to make much difference. There will be more unburnt powder going out the muzzle. But if you want to blast 3 pellets, go for it. Me,  I have kill a number of animals with just 2 pellets out to 175 yards with not problem.  :D
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Offline Omega

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2005, 03:12:16 AM »
Quote from: Redhawk1
The added velocity about 200 to 300 fps is not going to make much difference. But if you want to blast 3 pellets, go for it. Me,  I have kill a number of animals with just 2 pellets out to 175 yards with not problem.  :D


Its over 500 fps out of my guns over the chronograph. If you want to give that up be my guest. If you don't think that makes a big difference you should maybe do a little research into it.


Quote
There will be more unburnt powder going out the muzzle.


This is the biggest urban myth out there. Where I live we have no shortage of fresh white snow to shoot over. I have NEVER found any unburnt powder shot out across the snow. Nothing, nada, and I've searched hard with my camera in hand to document the supposed phenomena for an article. I search right out to my sabot and have never yet found a speck. Maybe that has to do with the length of barrel on the Omega or the fact that I only shoot pellets, I don't know but the unburnt powder is a huge farce to me.
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Offline Redhawk1

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2005, 08:09:05 AM »
Quote from: Omega
Quote from: Redhawk1
The added velocity about 200 to 300 fps is not going to make much difference. But if you want to blast 3 pellets, go for it. Me,  I have kill a number of animals with just 2 pellets out to 175 yards with not problem.  :D


Its over 500 fps out of my guns over the chronograph. If you want to give that up be my guest. If you don't think that makes a big difference you should maybe do a little research into it.


Quote
There will be more unburnt powder going out the muzzle.


This is the biggest urban myth out there. Where I live we have no shortage of fresh white snow to shoot over. I have NEVER found any unburnt powder shot out across the snow. Nothing, nada, and I've searched hard with my camera in hand to document the supposed phenomena for an article. I search right out to my sabot and have never yet found a speck. Maybe that has to do with the length of barrel on the Omega or the fact that I only shoot pellets, I don't know but the unburnt powder is a huge farce to me.


No research needed. If it works for you great. But I don't need it. The man asked a question and I gave my opinion.  But thank you urban myth buster.  :-D  :-D
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Offline Omega

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« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2005, 09:14:07 AM »
Quote from: Redhawk1
No research needed. If it works for you great. But I don't need it. The man asked a question and I gave my opinion.  But thank you urban myth buster.  :-D  :-D


That is the problem he didn't ask for your opinion.  :roll:  He asked a pretty straight forward question that was easily answerable by anyone with access to a chrono and the desire to try the load. Why you felt he deserved your negative opinion on a load that his gun shot so well is baffling to me. Not every gun will shoot that load well, thankfully most of my ML's will. I just sold one that would shoot sub 1 " with nothing more than 100 grains of powder. Great gun and great accuracy but not what I wanted when I have 4 others that'll do the same accuracy with 20%  more speed.

It's great you are happy shooting your present load, other people may be just searching for a different answer than what works for you and that is good also.
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Offline robk

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2005, 06:36:09 PM »
wish i could say the speed but i haven't had a chance to chrono the black powder yet. i have shot both the 100 grains in pellets and the 150 grain and though there was a difference in  where the rounds hit they both shot great groups. the 150 grain of 777 pellets i had 2 of the 3 bullets touching and the other just next to the other two and could actually cover them with a nickle. with the 100 grain i also had two touching but the 3rd round was out a bit farther than the 150 grain shot group but it still was covered with a quarter. i found the encore loves a nice clean barrel between each round shot, but they sure group great. i hope i can find a chrono in the near future and i will try to post what i get for fps.
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Offline Redhawk1

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2005, 02:03:44 AM »
Quote from: Omega
Quote from: Redhawk1
No research needed. If it works for you great. But I don't need it. The man asked a question and I gave my opinion.  But thank you urban myth buster.  :-D  :-D


That is the problem he didn't ask for your opinion.  :roll:  He asked a pretty straight forward question that was easily answerable by anyone with access to a chrono and the desire to try the load. Why you felt he deserved your negative opinion on a load that his gun shot so well is baffling to me. Not every gun will shoot that load well, thankfully most of my ML's will. I just sold one that would shoot sub 1 " with nothing more than 100 grains of powder. Great gun and great accuracy but not what I wanted when I have 4 others that'll do the same accuracy with 20%  more speed.

It's great you are happy shooting your present load, other people may be just searching for a different answer than what works for you and that is good also.


Omega don't get to touchy. All of us give our opinions. No need to be baffled and it was not a negative opinion, but your post sure is.  :roll: Now have a nice day.
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Offline AndyHass

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3 pellet velocity!
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2005, 11:31:19 AM »
Why 3 pellets/ 100+ gr 777?

   I spent 10 years hunting with my first ML...a $120 Traditions Deerhunter that shot great to 150 yards with its stock open sights once I took a file to the sear and got rid of the 13 lb trigger pull.  I shot 85gr Pyrodex and a 240gr Hornaday HTP.  That setup must have killed close to 30 deer...I'd have to sit back and count and I would never recall them all.  I used it even in regular firearm because I hate inaccurate guns and I couldn't afford an accurate shotgun.
   I hunted mostly in my friend's woods and my grandfather's woods, and whatever standing corn we owned.  Open field kills happened but were rare as it's hard to get close shots in flat, open fields.
   Well, my friend made a lot more friends in college and his woods got pretty crowded.  My grandfather was nearing the end and I knew my uncle would inherit the woods, ending my hunting days there.  Standing corn in November is rare.  So I could see I would be pushed into the open fields...full of deer, but unreachable with the trusty sidelock (150 yards was only for perfect shots...usually passed much over 100).  Additionally, after years of corrosive pyrodex, the point-of-impact began to creep and soon I had the sights pounded way out of center to keep it sighted in.  Then my grandfather died and I lost woods access.  Time to change guns and tactics.
   
    Enter the Omega.  Topped with a ranging Leatherwood scope and armed with a laser rangefinder, I set out to conquer those open fields.  With Surveyor's advice I pillar bedded the action and tamed its flyers.  I must have spent close to $200 last year on powder and bullets, running dozens of combinations in until I found the absolute best load.  I burned a couple lbs of powder over 200 yards alone with that load (200gr Shockwave, 110 gr 777).
    Sure, most of my kills last year were within 150 yards.  The gun is just as deadly there as far away, if not more so.  While I may have shot 200 rounds over 200 yards, that was because that's what it takes to be comfortable out there.  After years of hunting, plinking, and competitive shooting, AND having just pumped 200 rounds "out there", it doesn't take many at 50 yards to be comfortable there and know where to shoot.
    So I guess "why 150 grains"?  Because my current hunting circumstances dictate that.  I feed my family, my sister's, and my parents with my Omega, and occasionally donate another deer to a neighbor whose doctor won't let him eat any domestic red meat.  The deer are also so thick there that I'm doing the ecology and farmers a service by thinning them, so I don't really care about the "sporting" aspect.  If I want sport or adrenaline, I use a bow...shooting a deer at 20 yards with a gun is too easy and there's no adrenaline there after all these years.
     At the end of the season, once I have enough meat, I'll pull that old sidelock off the wall and head for the woods if there isn't a crowd to get my "sport".  I still love to still-hunt, but the Omega isn't for that.  I hate scopes in the woods.  If I'm going to have a scope on it, it's going to be for shooting far.

Offline iisabigone

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« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2005, 05:55:56 PM »
I hear you Andy!

Personaly Im not looking for the 200 yard load.  However, confidence at that range would be nice.  I have access to a 200 yard area to shoot but it is real tickey and chiggery this time of year so I dont shoot there often.

I still try and get as close to my game as possible.  Im the same guy that killed deer for years with a 45 cal roundball and 45 grains of fffg black before I knew any better.  However, whichever gun and load I decide to hunt with this fall I must have complete confidence in it up to 150 yards.

I myself have also been forced into hunting more easily accesable areas(getting old and fat is tough) which are often pastures, crop fields. food plots, clearcuts, powerlines and old homeplaces where longer range shots are often presented.

My main concern in selecting a gun and load is performance.

I want a gun and load that is not only accurate but when bullet meats flesh and bone I want it to knock the bejazzers out of what Im shooting.

I want my target to be laying where or near where it was when it was shot.  I was very pleased with the performance of the 100 gr of 777 ffg and the 250 shockwave out of the omega last fall.  

At this point in time Im begining to develop a lot of confidence in this 3 pellet load and shockwave with the encore and one of my omegas.  No telling how it will go between now and the fall for me.  

Just mho so I will go to bed before I ramble any further.

Everyone enjoy life ! iisabigone

Offline poncaguy

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« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2005, 06:14:00 PM »
All guns are different, especially BP's Going to give the new 30 grain 777 pellets a try this year in my new Omega with the 25 acp conversion. Will start with a 80, and then try 130. Also have a new Tradition's Pursuit LT to try too, retired my Encore BP, it's now a 15" 7mm-08 ..As far as over kill with 3 pellets.........why do guys shoot 7mm Rem mags and 300 Win.for deer? Or prefer Corvettes to Vw's..........hahahaha

Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2005, 12:35:59 AM »
Quote from: poncaguy
All guns are different, especially BP's Going to give the new 30 grain 777 pellets a try this year in my new Omega with the 25 acp conversion. Will start with a 80, and then try 130. Also have a new Tradition's Pursuit LT to try too, retired my Encore BP, it's now a 15" 7mm-08 ..As far as over kill with 3 pellets.........why do guys shoot 7mm Rem mags and 300 Win.for deer? Or prefer Corvettes to Vw's..........hahahaha


I don't think anyone said it was over kill. It had to do more with the accuracy for me.  :D
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Offline harvester

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« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2005, 03:09:08 AM »
285 grain Buffalo Bullet SSB (spitzer boat-tail, pure lead) over 80 grains of 777 in my omega.

i switched to hunting exclusively with my omega this year, and use this load for accuracy.  (terminal performance as well).

i don't know how accurate my gun would shoot 150 grains, but i know i wouldn't shoot it very accurate.  recoil was part of the reason i put away the slug gun.  this load is a true session load - can go to the range for a few hours and remain accurate and not get sore.  the added benefit is that it still kills deer very well.

ragged hole at 50 - i'm satisfied.

another concern with high powder charges (150 grains) is bullet performance.  unjacketed, swaged lead (which is what i use) will begin to deform at speeds in excess of 2,200 fps.  conversely, it will expand and penetrate very well at much lower speeds.  thinly jacketed bullets  can expand too fast at high speeds.  if i were using 150 grains, i'd want to be sure my bullet was up to the task - something like a barnes expander.  many bullets out there are constructed as handgun bullets, and are simply not intended to be driven that fast.

accuracy is the most important key, but not at the expense of terminal performance.  my advice is to verify that your bullet is designed to perform at speeds generated by 150 grains of 777.

Offline poncaguy

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« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2005, 03:52:23 AM »
I going to try about every combination of 777 pellets and Powerbelt bullets in my Omega and Pursuit LT......will be going for the best accuracy with these components. I use mine just for deer hunting and prefer the ease and speed of reloading. I know I could probably find more accurate loads with loose powder and sabots. Going to practice as far as 200 yards, since here in the open plains of Oklahoma where I hunt a lot of my attempts will be over 100.......... :D

Offline harvester

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« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2005, 07:59:56 AM »
just a thought, poncaguy -

if you're really going to be shooting between 100 and 200 yards, i'd put away the powerbelts and get  a true spitzer style boat tail bullet.  you'll have a better BC downrange, and will lessen the impact of crosswind deflection.  those downrange wind deflections are huge.  for those that are not aware, a 10 mph crosswind at 100 yards will push a shotgun slug 9".  the advantage of inline muzzleloaders is that we have projectiles available that are designed more like rifle bullets, with higher BC's.