Author Topic: Ackley in a handi (Read 2198 times)

Varminter · « **on:** June 15, 2005, 09:55:47 AM »

I started reading the specs on a 223 AI and i think i want to do this to my 223 barrel. I'm not sure if the handi will handle it or what all is really involved. Can anyone help me out.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2005, 12:47:06 PM »

Drew, if you do a search for Akley or AI, you'll get some enlightening info from previous discussions, it apparently works great in Handis with rimmed calibers, but not with rimless.

Tim

Varminter · « **Reply #2 on:** June 25, 2005, 02:07:48 PM »

thanks quick but it looks like i'm having some problems with my 223. If i can't get it to shoot better than it did the last time i took it to the range it's gonna go off to the gunsmith in oregon to be rechambered and rebored. Can you say 7-30 waters :wink:

safetysheriff · « **Reply #3 on:** June 25, 2005, 02:30:49 PM »

Quote from: Varminter

I started reading the specs on a 223 AI and i think i want to do this to my 223 barrel. I'm not sure if the handi will handle it or what all is really involved. Can anyone help me out.

there is some truth to the notion that 'improving' a chamber can lead to problems in some instances with the use of standard, factory loads in such a rifle. it's a problem if the neck/shoulder junction on the 'improved' chamber is a little too far forward in a chamber to allow a standard variation of the cartridge to bump its shoulder up against the neck/shoulder junction of the chamber. a handloaded, standard round (such as a .308) can be developed with a 'false shoulder' that can help with use in an 'improved' chamber, but it is time-consuming to do such handloading.

if a rifle is relatively short-chambered, however, and if the 'improved' reamer is not turned in too far, the results can be positive.

if you want to Possibly get past problems with your .223 -- if your rifle/scope/shooting technique/etc. are in good order -- try a different propellant in your handloads, and possibly also try a different primer. while it's true that most of us would change a projectile to achieve different results out of a rifle (if accuracy was poor for example), it's also true that a propellant change can greatly help with some problems.

good luck,

ss'

Varminter · « **Reply #4 on:** June 25, 2005, 02:32:47 PM »

As of yet i don't handload for the 223 but i thought if this conversion was possible i would start loading for it.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #5 on:** June 25, 2005, 02:49:51 PM »

what kind of problems are you having?

i'd be interesting in offering an opinion, but will tell you up front that rechambering may not be the answer.

i'll check on this topic again later.

i'm going offline for a while.

ss'

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** June 25, 2005, 03:05:52 PM »

Drew, I can't really offer any help, don't know that much about it, or I would have.....the main reason I replied was your question had gone unanswered for 10 days and I figured you deserved an answer, so I revived it, hopefully those that are knowledgeable about Ackleyizing a Handi will help out....Here's one of those threads I mentioned....

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=32431&highlight=ai

Tim

Mac11700 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 25, 2005, 03:30:43 PM »

I'll offer this bit of advice ...ask a reputable gunsmith familiar with the Handi rifle's action..and has done the Ackley improved cartridges before...and ask for references while your at it...so you can talk to whoever he did the work for...there are Improved cartridges...then there are AI cartridges...and they are different...

Additionally...it's not a cheap proposition converting to another...but it is a way of getting something quite unique to a Handi...just make sure it stays with-in the pressure curve...and it should be ok....A 7-30 Waters is a mighty fine cartridge...and should be a fine addition to the Handi rifle lineage...I'd say go for this over a A.I. cartridge any day of the week...

Mac

Varminter · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2005, 06:44:40 AM »

Here's the story...............
When i first got my 223 heavy barrel i did everything that is recommended to do to these little rifles. Polish the chamber, o-ring, "bed" the scope rail, etc. Well my first trip to the range was great. I was getting under an inch groups at 100 yards.

Now as of last weekend it won't do better than 4" at 100 yards. Nothing has happened to the rifle. It's just sit in the gun safe since the first time i took it to the range(last fall). As i checked the targets i couldn't believe what had happened. So i went back and checked the the rings and base on the rifle, all was tight. So i shot again. Same result nothing better than 4" I think it might be a bad scope but i'm not sure can anyone suggest anything?

safetysheriff · « **Reply #9 on:** June 26, 2005, 07:12:11 AM »

Varminter'

when you put the rifle away at the end of the last season, did you leave the bore anointed with a solvent that might have allowed the copper fouling to move toward either the muzzle or the chamber (depending upon how you store the rifle)? in other words, i'd give the rifle a very good cleaning with a bronze brush and some Birchwood Casey "Bore Scrubber". i would take my time scrubbing the bore repeatedly to remove all metal fouling. this can be done repeatedly over a couple days. why? because i've had problems with fouling migrating to the end of a barrel and then throwing off the accuracy....since i mistakenly allowed it to build up so much at the muzzle that you couldn't tell the barrel was rifled! i kept 'cheating' on my cleaning technique 'til the rifles had to be thoroughly scrubbed. (i used to stand my rifles up on the muzzle in a soft-bottomed container so the solvent wouldn't get into the action/frame)

but, the accuracy was restored in those rifles. they came back to 'as new' condition after being scrubbed out religiously over a few days.

ss'

ps: make sure when you fire your rifle/handgun that the bore is always dry. it may not be scrubbed absolutely clean of powder fouling, but it must be dry.

Varminter · « **Reply #10 on:** June 26, 2005, 07:20:22 AM »

When last season ended it was cleaned vigorously and the bore was dry when i put it away. and it's set in my safe since then.

I know its not the ammo i was using because when i first got the rifle i used the winchester 45gr. HP and they shot great. Now i with the same ammo nothing better than 4". Do you think it could be the scope.

mitchell · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2005, 07:29:31 AM »

what about the crown

? a $25 crown job is a lot cheaper then a rebore and rechamber

Varminter · « **Reply #12 on:** June 26, 2005, 07:45:40 AM »

Mitch that is one thing that totally slip my mind. is there anyway i can tell if something happened to it?

mitchell · « **Reply #13 on:** June 26, 2005, 08:03:52 AM »

well i'm no expert but if it has any kind of a scratch on it , it will shoot bad . there is a way tat you can tell by the splash on the muzzle but i'm not to sure how . you may want to go ask the gunsmith guys how to spot a bad crown.

but in your case its the only thing that makes since to me .

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** June 26, 2005, 08:09:53 AM »

Here's the muzzle pattern that shows a uniform crown..... hard to see on all but a stainless barrel, though....

One of the ways to check a crown is to run a Q-tip cotton swab around the edge of the bore at the muzzle, there should be no cotton fibers pulled off the swab and left on the muzzle. The edge of the bore should be crisp and smooth with no burrs or flat spots.

Tim

Varminter · « **Reply #15 on:** June 26, 2005, 08:19:22 AM »

Thanks Quick. I'll do that and try to post a pic of the crown on the barrel here in a little bit.

Lone Star · « **Reply #16 on:** June 26, 2005, 08:37:53 AM »

There is no way to properly rechamber a Handi to .223 AI. This comes from conversations with Ackley's shop in the mid 80s; because of the change in shoulder angle, the only way for factory ammo to headspace is at the neck/shoulder junction rather than on the datum line on the shoulder. To properly clean up the original chamber, the neck/shoulder juncture must be moved forward slightly; this will obviously result in excess headspace with factory ammo. The only way that Ackley's shop would rechamber a barrrel to an AI cartriidge was to set the barrel back one thread and then cut a correct chamber. Since this can't be done with a Handi, factory ammo will exhibit some excess headspace. This is one reason for poor accuracy and case life with some "bootleg" AI rechambers.

Of course if one sizes the cases for the longer AI chamber then it is like any other wildcat. But Ackley touted his Improved chambers as being able to safely fire factory ammo, and they will - if the barrel had been set back first.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** June 26, 2005, 09:32:09 AM »

Lone Star, how about rechambering the .223 to .22-250AI, or maybe a .308 to 30-06AI ??

Thanks for the detailed explanation, that's about the best I've seen!

Tim

nomosendero · « **Reply #18 on:** June 26, 2005, 11:25:02 AM »

Everything that Lone Star says about this is correct. How nice it would be
if we could take the .280 with the 26" barrel and Ackley it but we can't,
at least without risk.
Quickdtoo you could do this with the rounds that you mentioned but the
way that you need a good crush-fit in the chamber when you close the
action makes it a little harder with the Handi Rifle because you don't have
the camming action of a bolt action.
I use Handi Rifles alot & like them but I think the Ackley rounds are best
reserved for bolt guns or Encore barrels that are chambered that way from the factory.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** June 26, 2005, 11:30:41 AM »

I personally can't see that AI-ing a .308 to 30-06 yields much of a gain, but thought I'd ask for another poster that was interested in a possible rechamber for his .308, that's about his only non-magnum option. Now the .223 to 22-250( or AI) would be a substantial gain in performance.

Tim

Varminter · « **Reply #20 on:** June 26, 2005, 11:35:39 AM »

What kind of gain would be had if i did the rechamber to 22-250 AI?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** June 26, 2005, 11:45:21 AM »

I don't know what effect the faster 1:12" twist rate would have on the 22-250 loads which normally has a 1:14" rate, but max loads in the standard 22-250 shoots 55gr bullets at ~3700fps out of a 24" barrel, where the .223 max 55gr loads are 3200-3300fps. The 22-250AI bumps that up to almost 3800fps....per the Nosler 5th edition.

Tim

Varminter · « **Reply #22 on:** June 26, 2005, 03:14:59 PM »

Quick i did what you said to do with the q-tip. No cotton was pulled from the swap. So that means there are no burrs? ?Right? As for the muzzle pattern it looked about like the one in the pic you provided. It was sorta hard to tell considering it was a blued barrel. I'm runnin out of options on this 223. Can someone please tell me of another problem that may be causing my accuracy problem?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** June 26, 2005, 03:24:50 PM »

Drew, I'd eliminate the scope as the culprit before I did anything else....also, is the WWB ammo the same box you were using before? Could be a batch that's not loaded the same, too....are ya sure it's the same load? The 45gr JHP and 55gr FMJ come in the same kinda packaging.....

Just shootin in the dark here for a logical reason..... :?

Tim

Varminter · « **Reply #24 on:** June 26, 2005, 03:39:16 PM »

The ammo is the same batch i was shooting the first time i took it to the range. The WWB 45gr. HP. Had 2 boxes of it the first time i took it to the range. I only shot 20 out of the first box and never even opened the second. The only other thing i know to check is the scope and if that don't fix the problem i'm not sure what i will do.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** June 26, 2005, 03:43:20 PM »

Scopes have problems, even good scopes! What scope is it?

Tim

Varminter · « **Reply #26 on:** June 26, 2005, 03:46:37 PM »

It's the scope that came on it when i bought it. A Tasco 6-18-42. It was great when i first bought it. But that's the only thing that i haven't had a chance to switch out to see if that is the problem. It shot good with it on it so i never saw any need to change it.

mitchell · « **Reply #27 on:** June 26, 2005, 03:50:23 PM »

put it on a proven gun and see if it still holds true , ya never know

Varminter · « **Reply #28 on:** June 26, 2005, 04:00:41 PM »

I guess i could put it on my 44mag and see what it's like at 50 yards. :? If that isn't the answer to the problem i don't know what is.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #29 on:** June 26, 2005, 04:09:30 PM »

Quote from: Lone Star

There is no way to properly rechamber a Handi to .223 AI. This comes from conversations with Ackley's shop in the mid 80s; because of the change in shoulder angle, the only way for factory ammo to headspace is at the neck/shoulder junction rather than on the datum line on the shoulder. To properly clean up the original chamber, the neck/shoulder juncture must be moved forward slightly; this will obviously result in excess headspace with factory ammo. The only way that Ackley's shop would rechamber a barrrel to an AI cartriidge was to set the barrel back one thread and then cut a correct chamber.
Of course if one sizes the cases for the longer AI chamber then it is like any other wildcat. But Ackley touted his Improved chambers as being able to safely fire factory ammo, and they will - if the barrel had been set back first.

L'S'

I spoke to a 'smith here west of Cleveland who had reservations about doing a Handi' for me, because of the same thing you said. that's why quick'd's explanation of using rimmed cartridges is easier to achieve in a Handi'. it headspaces on the rim, of course.

The way I see it, in a Handi an 'improved' reamer could be custom cut by either SSK or Clymer to work with a Handi in its present chambering. It just wouldn't totally clean up the shoulder juncture with the neck and would probably work best with that juncture very gently 'radiused' like they do with the Weatherby's. that way there is a little 'crush' when an 'improved' cartridge is chambered in the rifle, and a factory regular cartridge would headspace at the juncture. SSK (and Clymer?) would also cut a sizing die for you, too.

the whole point of the excercise is ease of extraction (for those who know), less stretching of brass in a chamber, and increased velocity. to really 'improve' a .223, therefore, i still suggest going to a .222 Remington Magnum Improved......even if .222 Rem' Mag' ammo is hard to find!

take care,

SS'