Author Topic: Is it a conspiracy? (Read 1571 times)

sherppa · « **on:** June 15, 2005, 05:13:37 PM »

Is it just my suspicious nature or is there an elitist conspiracy within the gun industry and some shooting organizations? The cause of my wonderment is, some of the big BPCR matches refuse to allow the use of the Buffalo Classic in there matches.

I have not seen this to be the case in smaller local matches where everyone is just glad to be there and share the friendship and sport.

Now I would think that in a time when we are trying to bring people to the shooting sports we would be a little more open minded about allowing new shooters into the game. It is my thinking that an affordable rifle like the B.C. would be just the ticket for such a thing. Not all people can afford a Sharps or a Ballard.

I understand that there is the desire to keep things in historical context, but isn't the break action single shot one of the older action designs out there. The Maynard is a break action.

Or perhaps I was sitting out front of the principals office when the teachers was teaching the others about the buffalo rifles that were imported from Italy and Spain in the 1870s.

nuff said

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #1 on:** June 15, 2005, 05:46:47 PM »

I fully agree! However, the "Sharps" boys will give you no end of grief for suggesting it. Until the NRA silhouette committee changes the rules, they won't be legal; even though not everyone can afford to drop $2000.00 on a Shiloh.
The small matches around here don't care that I'm using a Buffalo Classic...........well, up to the point that I'm close to winning......and then they pull out the book.

handirifle · « **Reply #2 on:** June 15, 2005, 06:16:47 PM »

BPCR competetion was one of the reasons I bought my BC in the first palce. Then i found out there were not legal. That was also one of the reasons I sold it. I'd still like to compete in one but with a sharps, but cannot afford that so where does that leave me?

I feel your pain, but rules are rules. Oh well. Guess we'll just have to shoot and enjoy.

Sourdough · « **Reply #3 on:** June 15, 2005, 07:32:54 PM »

You know I get the same type of stuff from the purist when it comes to muzzleloaders, they give me a hard time about the in-line not being a true muzzleloader. They want everyone using a side hammer caplock or flintlock. Then I pull out the books and show them where inlines are older than their Hawkins. That shuts them up for a while. They just want to be a small eletist group that think they are the only ones that are right, when it comes to muzzleloaders. They really come unglued when they see me loading triple 7.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 15, 2005, 08:05:56 PM »

It's not only with the Buff -Classics...and the in-lines...but pull up a bench next to someone who has a Ruger #1...and watch their expression when you pull out a Handi... :eek: ....but ...I just wish I had a camera rolling on their faces...when we compare groups

Priceless...simply Priceless......

I know what everyone is feeling...I get the same thing when telling all my so-called friends about how accurate they can be...or the simplicity of the rifle...but..it does no-good...

Oh Well...as they say...beauty is in the eye of the beholder...and if they don't want to hold err...then they will never know what their missing

Mac

Zeke Menuar · « **Reply #5 on:** June 16, 2005, 08:15:17 AM »

I put a BC on layaway a few days ago. I WAS considering looking for the odd rifle match once in awhile. I even registered on the BPCR site. I may reconsider. Might be time to stir things up a bit over there and see why BC's aren't allowed at matches

Sounds like the same sort of gun-snobbery I encountered in IPSC and IDPA.

ZM

knight0334 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 16, 2005, 08:16:31 AM »

From what I was once told, the BC's aren't allowed due to their automatic ejectors and nonoriginal sights.

That may change though if you have a BC with extractor and historical accurate sights.

Zeke Menuar · « **Reply #7 on:** June 16, 2005, 08:22:47 AM »

Guess were gonna find out why they don't like the BC.

http://www.bpcr.net/forum-05/viewtopic.php?p=2647#2647

ZM

GrampaMike · « **Reply #8 on:** June 16, 2005, 10:17:21 AM »

Thanks Zeke, I would like to know too.

JPH45 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 16, 2005, 02:12:21 PM »

Over the years I;ve tried my hand a several of the shooting games and have always found myelf out spent, rarely out shot, but most definately out spent. IPSC had to actually create a class for the kind of gun the game originally was intended to be fired with. Go figure. I had an interest in this for a while but found that I couldn't afford to play. Too bad for them, they are missing out on a great shooter and a great fella

:roll:

:roll: If your local matches are allowing you to shoot with them go for it. Most of the folks there are probably more into the fun of it anyway. There is a club about 2 hours from here that has shoots concurrent with BPCR matches for the unsactioned shooters, you can even use smokeless and duplex loads in your BC or your 1895 for that matter, but no scores count for anything.

In the end of it, I think the rules were made up by a bunch of folks who were somewhat vested in roleplaying their ideas of being a buffalo hunter, not creating a game of broad inclusion for mass consumption. Too bad. You can shoot DCMP courses with a $400 Garand, prolly won't take a national trophy, but you can shoot on the same line with a fella with a 2 grand rifle. Can't do that in BPCR. I don't think the people at NRA who make the game rules are talking to the folks who want to see the shooting sports grow.

'Course it could all be that the snobs don't want to be reminded that a great many buffallo were killed by folks on horseback with '73's. Not so sporting, but it was highly effective.

What we really need is for NEF to reissue the H&R Trapdoor in both 50-70 and 45-70, then we can show up and trounch 'em with a $400 dollar rifle they can't throw out of the game.

Ed Hill · « **Reply #10 on:** June 16, 2005, 02:31:03 PM »

Yes, it is! What is interesting is what they do allow to compete. The Browning and Italian high wall copies are not internally the same as the original high walls. So why are they allowed in?

E.D.

Markus · « **Reply #11 on:** June 16, 2005, 03:46:28 PM »

I've solved the problem of the elite crownd by only shooting beer cans while alone. I don't go to a public range and nobody but me ever sees my guns or my groups. I did a little competitive shooting in the Army but never got into it once I got out. Guess I'm just a hermit.

sherppa · « **Reply #12 on:** June 16, 2005, 04:16:53 PM »

Yep, that would be great if H&R would bring back the Trapdoor in 50/70 or 45/70. Or even better yet, why not a Maynard?

Zeke Menuar · « **Reply #13 on:** June 16, 2005, 05:17:19 PM »

Warning! Sarcasim Ahead.

I shot IPSC for years with street gear and single stacks. I noticed that as USPSA progressed, the more snobby and elitist it got. Same with IDPA. Once a particular sport whether it is IPSC or twiddlywinks becomes popular, the hardcore gamers and "win at all cost guys" guys show up and hose it up for everyone.

I made the mistake of winning a stage out right with my LW Commander. Two OPEN class guys claimed I was cheating? with a single stack carry gun? The RO and MD went over my gun, gear and chrono'd my ammo. (Federal white box store bought ). Left a bad taste in my mouth.

I doubt I am a big threat to the usual supspects that play at the BPCR matches or any other match for that matter. My eyesight betrays me at about 250-300 yards. The best I can do is hitting orange clay targets at 300 yards with a Mosin 91/30 Tula ex-sniper. After that I need a scope.

I still want to know the technical reason for excluding the BC. Maybe the folks that run the matches get a cut from the sales of those $2000 rifles. Not much of a cut from a $300 rifle.

I am still trying to find out if I can use the BC at CAS side matches without having to shoot the whole match.

This is my opinion. Your opinion may vary.

ZM

P.S. There is still the theory about the UFO's, and the One-Armed Man behind the grassy knoll at Roswell. :wink:

Zeke Menuar · « **Reply #14 on:** June 16, 2005, 09:19:38 PM »

Based on a couple of replies I got. I don't think I want to shoot the BPCR matches even if I had a Sharps or similar rifle.

The CAS guys don't seem to mind the BC and it looks like I can shoot their side matches only if I choose. I am sending out some e-mails to see what I can find around here within driving distance.

ZM

Mac11700 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 17, 2005, 04:45:26 AM »

There is a-lot of snobs controling most of the sanctioned sports...and the last thing they want to see happen is a bunch of Handi owners showing up and out shooting folks who have invested $2000 and up on a rifle. I've shot around a bunch of benchrest guys...who shoot regularly in NRA approved matches..and the likes..and they really do look down on folks who buy off the rack..or haven't spent as much as they have.Not all mind you..but enough of them that does indeed like that sour taste in your mouth.

They kinda do this :roll: when you show up with a Handi..I imagine they are thinking...Ohh Good Grief...there goes the neighborhood...That kind of attitude really used to burn my britches..but not anymore...I just laugh at them...then...and when I walk to the target laugh even more....and when they ask "What's so funny ?"...and they usually do...I laugh at them again and say..." How much did you spend for that gun?

...Those types usually don't stick around...but those that are really interested in them.... will...

Soooner or later...one of the so-called writers will Re-Discover the Buff Classic...and when they do...I'll bet they change the rules again...or make another class...

Mac

Longcruise · « **Reply #16 on:** June 17, 2005, 06:29:05 AM »

Quote

Too bad. You can shoot DCMP courses with a $400 Garand, prolly won't take a national trophy, but you can shoot on the same line with a fella with a 2 grand rifle. Can't do that in BPCR

Yes you can. My local reloader guy has several sharps replicas on the rack for under $600.

Quote

What we really need is for NEF to reissue the H&R Trapdoor in both 50-70 and 45-70, then we can show up and trounch 'em with a $400 dollar rifle they can't throw out of the game

If nef does reintroduce that gun, it won't be a $400 rifle! :shock: Besides, they are pretty regularly for sale used and near new at the gun shows and usually for over $600. I sold an original recently on Auction Arms for $450. Guess you shoulda been there :grin:

And, good luck trouncing the rest of the field with an nef trapdoor or an original. It's not going to happen! Face it, it's like said in this thread, the guys who are really into the game are going all out to win and they aren't shooting trapdoors, are they?

If the high level competitors don't want the BC in the game, it's not because they fear the competition of the BC. If the BC were such a highly competitive rifle they would probably let it in and go buy them and get rid of their Sharps or High wall. :?

Hope nobody is too offended by my observations but cripes sakes you guys, get real.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 17, 2005, 07:09:40 AM »

Longcruise:

Quote

If the high level competitors don't want the BC in the game, it's not because they fear the competition of the BC. If the BC were such a highly competitive rifle they would probably let it in and go buy them and get rid of their Sharps or High wall. Confused

I kinda see it different..I see it as a catch 22 situation.... If no one is allowed to shoot them in the matches...then a-lot of folks won't know that much about them...and if they aren't being shot ...most writers won't write about them ...namely because they aren't allowed in in the first place..and also for their predetimined attitude against them...Some of the ones I've seen are just as accurate as a-lot of the Sharps or Pedersoils...and more depends on the guy pulling the trigger...and there are a-lot of folks out there that won't even give our Handi's a second look...they see them as cheap junky rifles...no-matter how good they shoot....I know...I have talked with some folks that feel that way...I'm not saying everyone is like that...but there are enough of them participating in all the different classes that are of the same mind...and the sad part is there are a-lot of people who listen to them and heed their advice..and... as long as the Buff isn't getting good press or is allowed into the matches..most guys won't know about it...

I'm sure it also has to do with where your at.. at the time...so..as far as getting real...been there...done that....and I still laugh at them...

Mac

Longcruise · « **Reply #18 on:** June 17, 2005, 08:16:12 AM »

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I'm sure it also has to do with where your at.. at the time...so..as far as getting real...been there...done that....and I still laugh at them...

Mac, not going to fault your sense of humor, only your reasoning!

Quote

If no one is allowed to shoot them in the matches...then a-lot of folks won't know that much about them...and if they aren't being shot ...most writers won't write about them ...

If you follow the link posted to the BPCRnet forum you will find several posts there by at least three people who just might know more about the shooting charachteristcis of the BC than many of the owners of them!! :shock:

Highly competitive BPCR shooters are not going to the gun press to learn their shooting discipline. The writers of the gun press are going to the shooters (and some of them to the specific ones on the above thread) to learn about BPCR.

One shooter/writer who knows both sides is Mike Venturino. Why don't you ask him how he would compare the shooting qualities of the BC with a well made Sharps replica or original rifle? Or, ask Steve Garbe how he would compare them. Both of those guys are super gentleman and respectful of all shooters. Either will give you an honest opinion.

It seems like we have a mix of opinions running through this thread including a conspiracy to keep the BC out, a lack of appropriate respect for the BC and a dissatisfaction with the official rule book on BPCR.

Let's face it, the rules were written in a certain "spirit" and there is no reason to interepret the enforcment of the rules as being in a mean spirit. The idea was to create a shooting discipline dedicated to to pre 1896 black powder cartridge rifles. The BC does not qualify. It's not a conspiracy, it's just a bunch of dedicated shooters trying to preserve the integrity of their shooting discipline. So, if you want the rules changed then work on that aspect.

As far as the BC getting the respect it deserves, it only needs to be seen in action. As more people go out and shoot the BC on public ranges and demonstrate it's shooting qualities, the rifle will get the respect it's due, whatever that may be.

A recurring scenario often related on this forum is that of the nef shooter showing up at the range with his "cheap" nef and printing tiny groups compared to the "snobs" with their high dollar guns. I ain't never seen it happen! :shock: I belong to a club with over 700 members and with a range that stretches to 500 meters. All types of shooters are members; BPCR shooters, service rifle shooters, high power shooters, plinkers, etc., etc. The only time I have ever seen the scenario of the nef shooting alongside the "snob" shooters, the nef's (my 30-30, .223, .308) were perfectly upstaged by the remchesters. OTOH, I can reach to the rack and pull out a K31 or a Tikka and reverse the roles (that's not a brag and is stated only for the benefit of those who will tell me it's the shooter and not the guns

)

So, once again, not trying to be personal, but get over it :grin:

If you want to shoot BPCR then get a $549 replica, about $200 dollars worth of sights (which you would need for the BC as well), learn to load BP in a brass case and go do it. It's a lot simpler, and more fun, to get involved in BPCR within the framework of the rules as they exist than to sit on the outside and gripe cause they won't change the game to suit you.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 17, 2005, 09:24:20 AM »

Loncruise....

Quote

A recurring scenario often related on this forum is that of the nef shooter showing up at the range with his "cheap" nef and printing tiny groups compared to the "snobs" with their high dollar guns. I ain't never seen it happen! Shocked I belong to a club with over 700 members and with a range that stretches to 500 meters. All types of shooters are members; BPCR shooters, service rifle shooters, high power shooters, plinkers, etc., etc. The only time I have ever seen the scenario of the nef shooting alongside the "snob" shooters, the nef's (my 30-30, .223, .308) were perfectly upstaged by the remchesters. OTOH, I can reach to the rack and pull out a K31 or a Tikka and reverse the roles (that's not a brag and is stated only for the benefit of those who will tell me it's the shooter and not the guns Smile )

So, once again, not trying to be personal, but get over it Very Happy

Where I shoot...they have all kinds of shooters...from the Secrete Service and Federal Marshalls...to us every guys...shooting every imaginable rifle.....I know what happens when I take my inexpensive Handi's to the range...I usually wind up getting a good laugh at few folks. for their attitutudes....then letting several interested non-snobs shoot mine...

I really can't help what happens where you shoot...maybe there just isn't enough accurate Handi's making out to your club?

...I do know that mine will shoot neck and neck with some of the best bolt guns there...and for a whole lot less money.Maybe I'm lucky...or maybe I just know how to shoot them good...who knows...but the fact of the matter is I have a ball when shooting mine along side someone who's spent $2k and up......so much in fact that I've sold my only remaining bolt gun...and will use nothing but my NEF's for all my centerfire needs...for a while.

As to getting the rules changed to allow the Buff's in...it wouldn't hurt the sport one bit...and would allow a bunch of Handi owners the chance to participate...

I also know my Handi's aren't bench rest guns...but please...don't tell them that...you might hurt their feelings....they don't know any better..and I'm certainly not telling them anytime soon... :-D

:-D

Mac

Longcruise · « **Reply #20 on:** June 17, 2005, 01:28:29 PM »

Quote

they have all kinds of shooters...from the Secrete Service and Federal Marshalls...

Not impressed. We have three local swat sniper teams that work out at our range and the state department of corrections. None of those guys have any particular shooting skills and most of them resent being made to go to the range to periodically practice and qualify. Most of my nef's both past and present would shoot with those guys any day regardless of their equipment. :grin:

Quote

I do know that mine will shoot neck and neck with some of the best bolt guns there

I assure you I have a bolt gun in my rack (under $450), never been tweaked, just as it came out of the box, that will outshoot any of your handi's based on an average of four five shot groups, target ring scores or random targets, random range in the field from cross sticks (there, I've said it!

).

Quote

...and for a whole lot less money.

Based on what I see being spent by most handi shooters in tweaking, modifying, trigger jobs, cost of factory returns and the cost of working up a load, my $450 dollar gun is the real bargain.

Quote

As to getting the rules changed to allow the Buff's in...it wouldn't hurt the sport one bit...and would allow a bunch of Handi owners the chance to participate

Nope, it wouldn't hurt and it would allow a bunch of handi shooters to participate, but I'll guarantee you there is not a single shooter who has griped on this thread who will make a serious effort to change the rules. Then, if successful, it remains to be seen how many BC shooters would actually show up. I betting not very many! :shock:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 17, 2005, 02:30:23 PM »

Quote

Not impressed. We have three local swat sniper teams that work out at our range and the state department of corrections. None of those guys have any particular shooting skills and most of them resent being made to go to the range to periodically practice and qualify. Most of my nef's both past and present would shoot with those guys any day regardless of their equipment. Very Happy

:eek: That's not saying much for your Local LE's in your area...the ones here shoot mostly CQC ...mostly they do.....and the long range snipers would beg to differ with you on any given day... Our officers take great pride in their shooting skills...and are most proficient at it...

I'd like to take you up on your challenge...and if I'm ever out your way will let you shoot my untweaked 30-06 Ultra Comp with Federal factory ammo...and it won't matter...shoot it from any position you would like...I'm quite sure you might change your mind about just how well some of these little rifles shoot with out all the fuss...and they really don't cost all that much...even if you do have to send them back in...

Have a Great 1
Mac

Ray Newman · « **Reply #22 on:** September 09, 2005, 07:49:35 AM »

Long Cruise: you said--

"Nope, it wouldn't hurt and it would allow a bunch of handi shooters to participate, but I'll guarantee you there is not a single shooter who has griped on this thread who will make a serious effort to change the rules. Then, if successful, it remains to be seen how many BC shooters would actually show up. I betting not very many."

I think you got that one right.

As an aside: her's some info 'bout the origins of NRA SANCTIONED SILHOUETTE:

See the "Black Powder Cartridge News", Fall 1999, #27, pages 20-21. Bill Pace authored it. Below are the title and the first three paragraphs:

"A 'Limited Equipment' Sport.

Thanks AI and Doc, for BPCRS!

"When Carlson and I conceived of BPCRS, we thought in terms of very simple game without a lot of gadgetry, especially one that would avoid the usual equipment race you see in so many other shooting competitions. You know just basically a rifle-a Sharps or a Rolling Block-and the stuff a Buffalo Hunter would have had. (Italics ARE author's)

"AI Hill, NRA Silhouette Committee members and one of the co-founders of BPCRS, was speaking to another shooter at the 1996 NRA BPCRS Championships. I listened as AI talked about their early shooting experiments, how they arrived at rifle models allowed, and dimensions, etc. This was my first National BPCRS match at Raton and over the next three days I had an opportunity to consider and remember AI's comments.

"As the final day wound down and we gathered for the awards ceremony, I thought back over the past three days. Yep! Had a great time, met lots of people, and got to look at lots of equipment. Recalling AI's 'keep it simple, no gadgets' comments, I could only laugh."

The remainder of the article is a tongue-in-cheek look at al/the equipment needed and/or perceived to be needed to participate in BPCRS.

If you are that upset with the decision, take it up with the NRA. Maybe if enough complained to the NRA, this cartridge, along with others and possibly more rifles, might be allowed to participate.

Enough BPCR 'scope shooters finally got the NRA to have a sanctioned 'scope BPCR long range classification.

Cottonwood · « **Reply #23 on:** September 09, 2005, 01:52:43 PM »

When I owned a Buffalo Classic, there were only two matches that I would shoot in. CASS/SASS or at the Quigley where they are most deffinetly welcome.

kjeff50cal · « **Reply #24 on:** September 09, 2005, 08:58:33 PM »

Because the sanctioning body excludes the BC IS a form of snobbery and may be challenged if you remember the H&R other logo... 1871. H&R made not only single barrel shotguns but also rifles abiet .22 thru .32 rimfires for small game in mid-eighteenth century. The break barrel rifle is not a new design by a long shot (pardon the pun).

kjeff50cal

jerkface11 · « **Reply #25 on:** September 10, 2005, 03:55:44 AM »

Loncruise how many handis do you own?

tom barthel · « **Reply #26 on:** September 10, 2005, 05:59:34 AM »

I shoot for fun. I buy my rifles because I want them. If it goes off when I pull the trigger, I'm happy. If I wanted to enter a competition, I would obtain whatever the rules specified. I AM HAPPY WITH WHAT I HAVE AND DON'T CARE WHAT ANY ELITIST MAY THINK. MY rifles please ME. That's enough. I have shot PPC competition with revolvers. While duty type weapons are permitted, they seldom win. My duty weapon was NOT a 6 inch bull barrel weapon firing only wadcutters. I was still considered qualified to carry.

FORGET COMPETITION AND JUST ENJOY.

Take care and God bless

Tom

dodd3 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 10, 2005, 03:39:10 PM »

living here in oz and shooting a buff classic your rules don't affect me. but i will set the record strait here i have a buff classic with a lyman .404 globe up front and a williams fp at the rear a total cost of this setup is ozy dollars, $790 buff classic ,$49 lyman globe,$109 fp =grand total $948 pedersoli sharps sporter no/3 $1950 billy dixon $2290 quigley $2500.this is for rifles only sights will bump the price even higher example of how accurate my buff is, a guy in my club has a pedersoli sharps creedmoore with soule sight total cost $2700 and my buff classic out shoots it all the time."are" you say i mite be a better shot wrong he is the better shot.he shot my loads out of my buff classic just under 3/4 inch at 100 meters then he shot them out of his sharps 1-3/8 inch at 100 meters..then he shot his loads out the buff 1-1/4 inch at 100 meters.then out the sharps 1-7/8 inch at 100 meters. all this a fact no bull so just because a gun cost more and looks better dose not mean it will shoot any better,as they say every gun is a law unto its self.this dose not mean that would not like a billy dixon sharps i would love but i just cant afford one keep safe.
bernie