44 loads for "big bored" NEF barrel

[MtJerry]

Well, the 265gr. bullets I ordered from beartooth are in and I have a bottle of 2400 sitting on my bench.

They are sized .432 to match the diameter of my "big bored" 44 mag barrel.

Anyone got any loads in this combination they want to share?  I checked Alliant's website and they list a MAX load of 17gr. of 2400 with a 265gr. JFP.

I am thinking of starting at about 16gr. and working up to 17gr. using the ladder method.

Any other suggestions?  I know H110 is a good powder too, but I use 2400 for several other loads and want to try and stick with it.

Thanks,
Jerry

[safetysheriff]

if you are shooting their gas-checked bullet which seems to be a 'weight-forward' kind of design, I'd go with a ball/spherical powder whether it be Winchester's 296, Hodgdon's H-110, or bulk WC-820.    I'd use Win' WLP or CCi large pistol magnum primers.     I'd work up a load with the idea that a weight-forward design will need (and take) more powder to develop reliable ignition.  

Why not contact Beartooth to ask for their recommendations since they know best about the design parameters of their product -- I'd guess.

SS'

[Leftoverdj]

MtJerry, sounds like lawyerized data to me.  That's lighter than my bottom load for 255 KT GC, a LOT lighter. It's also too much for a plain base bullet. Part of that is because it is jacketed bullet data and those build more pressure.

You did not say which, but here is great data for PB bullets. http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

SafetySheriff, perhaps you could share your experience with us. What .44 Mag rifles have you loaded cast bullets for, what bullet diameters did they take, what weights and charges have you tried, and what were your results?

[JPH45]

The Lyman 47th Edition shows a starting load of 17.5 grains and a max of 20.4 grains with a 275 grain lead bullet (with gas check mold#429640) Velocities are 1468 and 1656 respectively. (rifle data)

For a double check, Speer #13 maxes out at 17.5 grains of 2400 with their 270 Gold Dot, they show a velocity of 1367, thats pretty anemic considering that using 21 grains of H110 will give you 1573 acording to their data and I was getting 1575 from my Handi with that same bullet.

18 grians of H110 was giving me 1430 fps with Magnus Bullet Co. 300 grainer (Lyman 48th Edition manual). While I understand the desire to use the same powder in different cases, such a practice may not give you the best performance in every case.

[MtJerry]

Thanks for the replies!

I loaded a few up last night starting at 16gr and went up to 17gr.  I will give them a try later today at the range if I can get away from work in time.

Safetysheriff,

I tried to call Beartooth, but got no answer on the day I called.  As for a "weight-forward" design, I have some doubts about that.  These bullets are rather short for a 265gr bullet.  The wide meplat and bullet weight make for a pretty compact package.  I also got some 250gr. keith bullets that are about 1/4 inch taller than these  :shock:

Anyway, I'll let ya know how they work out.  

JPH45,

With the info you have given me, I'm thinkin' these will be pretty mild loads.  If they do not gorup well, I'll keep easing up the load and watch for pressure signs.

Thanks again ...

[MtJerry]

Back from the range ...

16.8gr showed me a 1" group at 50 yards using the iron sights.  I suppose that will do nicely.  

I may go ahead and work up a few more at 1/2 gr. increments up to 19gr.  The 17gr. loads showed NO signs of pressure or leading.

[safetysheriff]

SafetySheriff, perhaps you could share your experience with us. What .44 Mag rifles have you loaded cast bullets for, what bullet diameters did they take, what weights and charges have you tried, and what were your results?

leftovers'

give it a rest.......if you know how.    we're not able to play the game we used to play on the NEF site -- and there's a good reason for that.   if you can handle it.    i doubt you'll ever be boss over me.

ss'

[quickdtoo]

Come on SS, share some info with us that pertains to shooting cast bullets in 44 mag rifles..... Inquiring minds need to know!!! :-)

Tim

[safetysheriff]

Thanks for the replies!


Safetysheriff,

  As for a "weight-forward" design, I have some doubts about that.  These bullets are rather short for a 265gr bullet.  The wide meplat and bullet weight make for a pretty compact package.  I also got some 250gr. keith bullets that are about 1/4 inch taller than these  :shock:

.

MtJerry,

It's because of how wide the meplat, and how short the part of the projectile that is seated inside the case, that it makes me think of the weight-forward design.   The point being, that it will need loads somewhat tailored toward that kind of a projectile.    The ball/spherical propellants  that I mentioned before may not be very flexible with their charge weights, but Accurate Arms #9 can be loaded down more than Winchester or Hodgdon's.

For my part, I'd increase the performance in the .44 mag' by using a ball powder anyway.   John Linebaugh's website used to tell how much velocity could be increased, while keeping pressures in acceptable ranges, with W-296 and H-110.   They are better than Alliant's 2400 when it comes to handling higher pressures and velocities, according to Linebaugh.   They do not wear out revolvers because of their pressure curves, and with a Handi' the wear and tear should be even less.

Good luck

SS'

[safetysheriff]

Come on SS, share some info with us that pertains to shooting cast bullets in 44 mag rifles..... Inquiring minds need to know!!! :-)

Tim

here's a few quick tips, for those who want them:

if you shoot hollow-points, you'll probably want to use a softer lead alloy so the hollow point will open up better.......which will mean that a gas-check will be needed to get the bullet to grip the rifling better.    this is especially true in a micro-groove rifle.     i've seen it as a waste of time in my Marlin to use hardcast bullets that weren't gascheck'd.    (that's part of the reason my Marlin has been out on loan for a couple years now....   i gave the landowner some jacketed flat points and they have done fine out of the Marlin on deer.)  

shooting a larger diameter hardcast bullet is a poor, poor substitute for using a gascheck in a micro-grooved Handi' or Marlin.    the lead alloy is just not hard enough to grip the rifling in many/most instances -- to make a tack-driver out of the rifle.  

the .44 mag' cartridge is capable of target-grade accuracy, out of a Handi' or a Marlin, if loaded properly with a bullet that the rifle likes.    

if you shoot hardcast the lesser friction of the projectile can make it harder to get consistent ignition in the .44 mag'.   a consistent case length, with a firm crimp, will help in most instances, IF the projectile itself is also heavy enough to assist with resistance to movement when the primer fires.    it can be Very difficult with the slower spherical powders to get reliable ignition with lighter cast bullets in a .44 mag' .    some of our co-conspirators have tried the lighter bullets, and they are problematic.    why bother?  

a micro-grooved rifle, shooting hardcast, plain-based bullets, is of little or no advantage over a revolver, in my experience.    if your eyesight will allow it, a good open-sighted revolver will prove more enjoyable than a micro-grooved rifle that the bullets 'strip' from.  

ss'    

Tim,

you took leftover's bait; i did not.   now you've gotten a little of what i've seen/know.

want to see a .44 mag' perform?   try garrett's type of projectiles and loading and use them out of a 7 1/2" Ruger revolver and you'll have plenty of power in a very 'Handi' package!   if you don't like the expense, just get some of National Bullets 265 gr' rnfp hardcast and shoot those out of a Ruger.   if your eyes are good you will not need a scope, and they will penetrate!     it's easier than carrying the Handi's that we all love, and it's a further handicap that makes the hunt even more interesting.

[MtJerry]

SafetySheriff,

Thanks for the info!  Interesting reading and I will give it some consideration.

I should have pointed out that these 265gr's I got from Beartooth are Gas Chcked bullets.  They are sized .432 because that is the bore diameter of my Handi.  There are some other posts here that indicate that this fairly common occurance for Handi's in the 44mag.

I have found that they are VERY accurate out of my Handi at low velocities, and I am working on bringing the velocity up and keeping the accuracy at the same time.  I'm not done with that part yet.

I have also tried them out of my 7 1/2 Ruger SBH and they are just as accurate.  We'll see if the accuracy stays there as I work the load up.  I agree about the Ruger being a good carry gun for hunting.  I spend a LOT of time in the mountains here in Montana and when I am there, the 44 Ruger goes with me.  I bought the NEF 44 to ride on my ATV.  It's light, compact, and fits nicely on the ATV.

If I find a load that shoots well out of my Handi and my Ruger, I will be in heaven!  SO far, the 265gr'er does the job.  You might think the .432 dia. is a bit big for the ruger, but I slugged the cylinder of the Ruger and it was .431 so I think I'm ok.

Thanks again for the replies!

[Longcruise]

but I slugged the cylinder of the Ruger and it was .431 so I think I'm ok.

I've slugged two of those guns and they were .4315.  Ordered a mold from lbt in .4325 at 320 grains.  What a hammer on both ends out of the SBH :shock:   I could get it to a bit over 1300 fps out of the 7.5 inch barrel.

I would buy a handi .44 just to play with those 320's but probably not going to work in their 1:38 twist   I sent some to somebody here on the list and they reported keyholes with their handi .44.

[MtJerry]

Longcruise,

I have tried the 300gr. Hornady XTP's and had pretty fair results in my Handi.  I only bought them because they were the largest sized jacketed bullets I could find (.430).

Send me a few and I'll give them a try  :grin:

[Varminter]

What is the heaviest bullet that the handi would stablize?

[MtJerry]

This is from Chuck Hawks site:  http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm

The usual twist rates for some of the more popular rifle calibers are given below. (For a more comprehensive list, see "Common Rifle Barrel Twist Rates" on the Rifle Information Page.)

.22 Short = 1 in 24"
.22 Long Rifle = 1 in 16"
.223 Remington = 1 in 12"
.22-250 Remington = 1 in 14"
.243 Winchester = 1 in 10"
6mm Remington = 1 in 9"
.25-06 Remington = 1 in 10"
.257 Wby. Mag. = 1 in 10"
6.5x55 Swedish Mauser = 1 in 7.5"
.260 Remington = 1 in 9"
.270 Winchester = 1 in 10"
.270 WSM = 1 in 10"
7mm-08 Remington = 1 in 9.25"
7mm Rem. SAUM = 1 in 9.25"
7mm Rem. Mag. = 1 in 9.25"
.30 Carbine = 1 in 16"
.30-30 Winchester = 1 in 12"
.308 Winchester = 1 in 12"
.30-06 Springfield = 1 in 10"
.300 WSM = 1 in 10"
.300 Win. Mag. = 1 in 10"
.300 Wby. Mag. = 1 in 10"
.303 British = 1 in 10"
.32 Win. Spec. = 1 in 16"
.338-57 O'Connor = 1 in 10"
.338 Win. Mag. = 1 in 10"
.35 Remington = 1 in 16"
.350 Rem. Mag. = 1 in 16"
.375 H&H Mag. = 1 in 12"
.416 Rem. Mag. = 1 in 14"
.444 Marlin = 1 in 38"
.45-70 Govt. (Marlin and Ruger rifles) = 1 in 20"
.450 Marlin = 1 in 20"
.458 Win. Mag. = 1 in 14"

And this is from the NEF Sticky here at GB's:

posted December 28, 2003 07:09 AM

.17 HMR 1 in 9"
.22 LR 1 in 16"
.22 WMRF 1 in 16"
.22 Hornet 1 n 12"
.223 1 in 12"
.25/06 1 in 10"
.243 1 in 10"
.270 1 in 10"
.280 1 in 10"
.308 1 in 10"
357 Mag 1 in 18 3/4"
7x57 1 in 10"
7x64 1 in 10"
30/30 1 in 10"
30/06 1 in 10"
38/55 1 in 18"
44 Mag 1 in 38"
45/70 1 in 20"
45 Colt/410 1 in 16"
20 ga. 1 in 28"
12 ga. 1 in 35"


I see that NEF is again not quite on speck with the rest of the gun world.  :?

[safetysheriff]

Mt. J'

Ideally, most revolver buffs would look for a chamber throat to be approx. .001 larger than the bullet diameter.....

All that is fine and well, but if your revolver works well without developing excessive pressures then you should have an even more accurate piece, I would think.     It all depends upon a couple of variables actually.

You may want to try either IMR or Hodgdon's 4227 for propellants, with a Win' large pistol primer, to see good accuracy with reasonably good velocities.   The velocities won't equal the ball/spherical powders like H-110 or Win 296, but the accuracy should -- on the average -- be equal or better.    

I hope you 'drill ' a big one and get to tell us all about it.

Long'C,

I'd guess that some of the gun cranks on this site might doubt your velocity out of that Super BlackHawk.    I don't!    I've seen J.D. Jones state that his 320 gr' hardcast bullet in .44 mag' would get a little less than 1400 fps' out of a 7 1/2" revolver -- so I believe you.  { "Hunting for Handgunners" is the book by Jones and Larry Kelly.}  

Makes one think about how much you really need to carry a .45-70 and so on, if the .44 mag' -- properly loaded in a proper Ruger -- can deliver so much in such a small package.

Take care,

ss'  

p.s.   FWIW: the Belt Mountain Base Pin I put on my 5 1/2" Super BlackHawk has allowed that piece to do some amazing work off a bench at a 100 yard range we have here in N/E Ohio.    I do recommend them if your original base pin is as loose as mine was.

[MtJerry]

I must be loosing my mind ... I could have sworn the Chuck Hawks site listed the 44mag twist as 1:20 ?!?!?!?!

Anyway, I don't know the math, but 1:20 sounds better than 1:38 for heavier bullets.

[JPH45]

Probably did. The problem with the 44 Mags twist rate is whose barrel, and when was it made. It is possible that when Ruger brought out their original 44 auto loader, they used the same twist as was used in past in 44-40 rifles; 1 in 38. When Marlin introduced the 444 they used the 1 in 38 twist in that as well. Twist works good woth bullets up to 270-280 grains, which was fine for 250 grain bullets. Try to get heavier....300 +......and one needs something faster. But most likely it was the 1 in 20 twist in revolvers that set the tone of 1 in 20 rifle barrels of later manufactuer. As the use of heavier bullets became the norm, makers had to increase the twist of their barrels as well.

As cast bullet shooting goes the rule of thumb is to use the slowest twist that will stabilize the bullet. I believe the thought is to minimize the torque and rotational forces the bullet goes through in an effort to maximize the accuracy potential of a bullet. At least so the thinking goes.

I've done enough shooting with my 44 that I'm quite satisfied that there is no disadvantage to the 1 in 38 twist. I believe a close study of the 44's ballistic capabilities will bear out that a 270 grian bullet at 1575 fps offers the best balance of velocity, energy and trajectory the case is capable of.

[Longcruise]

Send me a few and I'll give them a try

Shoot me a PM with address, etc.  Be happy to ship you a few.  I have a coffee can full and have sold the .44 mag pistol.

What is the heaviest bullet that the handi would stablize?

I think it would be a matter of bullet fit, etc.  I can stablilze a Lee .430 255 gr wadcuuter out of a 1:48 barrel but that's about the extreme possible with the 1:48 (yes, 1:48 not 1:38 :grin: )

If a bullet leaves the muzzle doing the watusi it may destabilize, whereas the same bullet with a good fit might settle down and shoot well.

I'd guess that some of the gun cranks on this site might doubt your velocity out of that Super BlackHawk. I don't! I've seen J.D. Jones state that his 320 gr' hardcast bullet in .44 mag' would get a little less than 1400 fps' out of a 7 1/2"

I'd not doubt that for a second.  Coulda got there myself but once I was just over 1300 it didn't make any sense to go further and in fact I backed it off to about 1275 for everyday use.  Those loads are a handfull in a SA revolver :shock:

Makes one think about how much you really need to carry a .45-70 and so on, if the .44 mag' -- properly loaded in a proper Ruger -- can deliver so much in such a small package

If NEF would just get their twist right, I'd own a .44 barrel and probably whack it off to just over 16 inches for a close combat brush gun.   Not that I'd ever need it, but then again I don't "need" any of my guns. :grin:

[MtJerry]

Longcruise - you got mail!!!  Thanks!

JPH45,

These 265gr's actually weigh out at around 270gr. due to the larger size.  I am aiming for that magic 1575 mark you have laid out.  I'll let ya know how I do.

I cannot express how pleased I am with the size of the meplat on this round.  if I can get it to that magic 1575 velocity, it should do extemely well come hunting season  :grin:

[JPH45]

1500 ought to do just fine, but 1575 is what 21 grains of H110 gives me with the Speer Gold Dot 270. Speer #13 says 1573 fps for that load...pretty close I'd say. Can't say if the cast will go a little faster or slower, would depend on the alloy. Longcruise sent me some of those 320's he's got a couple years ago....all I got was keyholes, that's all I've got from the Lee 310 bullet as well, but the Hornady 300 XTP stabilizes just fine, but it should as it is practically the same length as the 270 Gold Dot. Stabilization is a funtion of length, not weight, so even a bullet made from zinc but the same length as the Lee 310 will not stabilize even though it will be some 60% the weight of the lead version.

In the end there is no replacement for displacement. If you want more umph from your 44 the best way to get there is to rechamber to 445 SuperMag

[Leftoverdj]

JHP, the Lee 310s will sorta stabilize in my 1-38" Marlin. They go through the target straight, but accuracy is only about 3" at 50 yards. I was a little cautious on those loads, and I have been meaning to load some ragged edge max loads to see if an extra 150 fps or so will improve that.

[MtJerry]

Longcruise sent me some of those 320's he's got a couple years ago....all I got was keyholes

Bummer ... that does not make me optamistic since (if I remember correctly) your barrel is the same size as mine.    

I think I need to get some H110 and just be done with my facination with 2400.

JPH45, I have spent the last few hours reading a LOT of old posts you made about your adventures with the 44mag NEF.  Yours are the posts that make a difference on a site like this.  It's not book data ... it's range time and lots of trial and error with a rifle that is the likely the ballistic twin to mine given the bore size.  

I think I need to stop trying to re-invent the wheel and pick up that load from you that works with the 270gr. bullets (21.0gr I believe?).

[JPH45]

I don't know that I'd give up on 2400, just think of using H110 as expanding your repertoire. There are more than a few powders that work well in the 44, from 231 to 1680. Each has it's own place. The 44 is to my thinking one of the most versatile cartridges/chamberings available. It'll do from very mild plinking to very serious hunting.

Do remember that is was quite by accident that I rediscovered a simple axiom of using cast bullets...slug your bore, and your bullet should fit the throat. From your pictures, I suspect that Beartooth bullet is as near to perfect a fit to your throat/barrel as is possible.

Sometimes we get anxious for a load that shoots better than anything we've seen, when groups like you've posted are at least as good as exellent. Besting the groups you have posted could be an exercise in futility. I've yet to see anything any better than those from my rifle. From time to time I get frustrated, then I rememebr that if I was shooting groups 2 to 3 times that size from a revolver, I'd think I had the best loads available, and that I was some kind of hot shot. As it is, knowing that groups like that are the norm from my rifle gives a great confidence when setting out in the woods. In other words, don't underestimate just how good your load is.

[Longcruise]

mtjerry, I never got your PM.  email me at longcruise@mindspring.com

[JPH45]

JHP, the Lee 310s will sorta stabilize in my 1-38" Marlin. They go through the target straight, but accuracy is only about 3" at 50 yards. I was a little cautious on those loads, and I have been meaning to load some ragged edge max loads to see if an extra 150 fps or so will improve that.

DJ, I missed your post earlier, I apologize, bad eye sight and going to fast. At 50 yards I don't even get a group with the 310. The ones that do hit the target make the prettiest keyholes one could ever want. Funny thing is that the 300 XTP stabilizes just fine. I'm wondering if the extra velocity the 445 SM is capable of will give the thing enough velocity to stabilize.

These days I've been pretty focused on the 38-55. From all I can tell, the 445 and the 38-55/375 are for practical purposes ballistic twins The 38-55 throws a little more streamlined bullet of course, but I doubt any bullet fit for hunting will be a lot superior to any 44 bullet of equal weight (as cast bullets go anyway) I'm pushing the Lyman 379449 (264 grains) right at 1900 fps, I can't imagine I'd need anymore for whitetails.

It'd still be nice if NEF would make a 1:20 .44 caliber barrel, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. But I'm not convinced that a bullet any heavier than 270 grains does anything for a fella. It certainly won't make a deer any deader.

It has been a long while since I ran some of those 310's through my 44, it could well be that the bullets just ain't big enough for the rifling to get a good grip on. I'll check that and let ya know.