Author Topic: Tested Powders Swiss, Dragon, KIK (Read 1514 times)

River runner · « **on:** February 20, 2003, 08:31:33 AM »

Spent the entire day at the range again, and took my lunch along with the above powders, my .32 flinter by Pedersoli, my Traditions .54 Hawkins, and my unknown brand .45 Kentucky I put together as a kit 30 years ago or so.

Found that the Swiss performed the same as my Dragon, which I understand is no longer available, and much cheaper; in both my .32, and .54 in the 3F granulation. Tried the 2F Swiss in my .54 like is recommended and the groups opened up, with both rb, and conicals. Tried the KIK in my .54 both 2F and 3F, and it didn't like either. My .45 shot really well with the 2F KIK, but had the occasional flier that I could only attribute to the powder. (shooting from a bench) Tried the 3F KIK in the .45, and the groups were more consistent, but opened up considerably.

Tried the Swiss 3F and 2F in my .45 it seemed to like the 3F Swiss the best, it even out shot the Dragon 3F, which it, up to that time, performed the best with, and would shoot equally well with the 2F Dragon.

The only Goex I used was the 4F in my .32 flinter, for pan powder, I noticed a lot quicker ignition, as I was using Dragon 3F and rolling it finer with my wife's rolling pin which she didn't appreciate for some reason. Used to be all I could get around here was Goex, and no matter what I did I couldn't any, what I call really good accuracy out of it.

I use the Dutch Schultz method for milking out the maximum accuracy, so the only thing I changed was the powder in different increments with the exception of the Dragon brand I used to develop my accuracy loads.

The end result of my testing is I wish I could locate another supply of Dragon powders, but at least I know Swiss is available.. RR

fredj · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2003, 03:46:36 PM »

RR-Not to be contentious, but I'd be truly suprized if the Chinese BP proved to be higher quality than the Swiss. The Swiss is virtually identical to the legendary Curtis
and Harvey Black Diamond or the late 19th century, when the the folks from Petro toured the Swiss plant they were blown away by how anal those Suisse are if there is any variation noted in any of the individual
test critera of any given batch they pitch it and start all over again and it shows as there is absolutely no lot to lot or seasonal variation, and they only use Buckthorn Alder for the char. which
is the standard by which all charcoal for BP's are judged by. WANO uses
Common Alder which is a close second and in a rifle grade BP the differences are insignificant. That being said the Swiss being a true sporting grade BP is not ideal for every BP shooting application, as it's too fast. I found the Swiss incredible in my smaller bore rifles particularly
flinters. but as it is so efficient it's considerably tweakier than rifle grade BP's. I found it much easier to come up with acceptable accuracy loads with the 25/99 Elephant as it's PODR is much less stringent than the Swiss
I settled on the FFg Elephant with my .54 because it shoots so well I didn't see any point to bothering with the Swiss in that rifle.
I think to really give a true evaluation with the Swiss or any other BP for that matter takes a great deal of time, even with a rifle I'm really familiar with I find it takes an entire afternoon of shooting to be conclusive
IMHO.
I think the guys that really put BP through it's paces are the slug gun Bench rest shooters (those guys wring every available bit of accuracy out of their barrels) and the BPCR crowd, I think the top 8 shooters at the BPCR Silhouette nationals last year were shooting Swiss. I think that given enough time working with the loading variables most any BP can
be made to perform well, but the biggest problem is having to invest all that time all over again when you buy another batch. The KIK was initially
very popular with the BPC folks they found it nearly as fast and clean as the Swiss, it is by the way Alder based, however most found no matter what they tried they got flyers, eventually Mad Monk and other determined this to be the result of inadequate glazing, which ironically
was likely part of the reason for it's speed.
Regards fredj

River runner · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2003, 07:21:58 PM »

fredj, the Swiss, is great powder, no doubt about it. It surpassed the Dragon in the .45 Kentucky. There was not a significant difference in my inexpensive smoke poles with the Swiss over the Dragon though, especially in the .32 flinter and the .54. Like I stated, I arrived at my personal range at 8:00 AM and fired my last shot at about 4:00 PM. Didn't have to wait for a cease fire to reset my targets etc. With the exception of the Dragon, I used quite a variety of different powder charges, as well as patches, none were pre-cut ( 2 different thicknesses of denim and pillow ticking). I also used 3 different types of lube, Thompson's, not to be confused with Bore Butter, a dry patch using water soluble oil, and a concoction using bee's wax, lanolin, and Crisco. Used pre-soaked moose milk patches to swab the bore between shots and one dry pre-cut cloth patch to dry. When I bought the Dragon, I bought two cases one of 2F and one of 3F, as I shoot CAS using BP exclusively. Perhaps the quality of Dragon may differ but the 3F I got sure has been consistent, and clean
burning. Now that I won't be able to get the Dragon any more, in the future when I need a consistent, clean burning powder Swiss will be my
first choice. By the way Fred, ya got stock in that company?

Justkidding. I didn't much care for the KIK, it was clean burning, but for
the most part inconsistent. I'll use it up in CAS. Anyway, the smoke poles were relatively inexpensive, as compared to what the serious competitors use, and further I'm just an average shooter, I do have the basics of marksmanship due to my USMC training, and my police marksmanship requirements; I'm sure there is a major difference to the benchrest professionals, all in all the Swiss, did impress me, but didn't really out
shoot the much cheaper Chinese BP I used for the past year :-D RR

fredj · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2003, 03:20:27 AM »

RR- I'm definately biased, I've never shot any of the Dragon, and it's a shame when our Government ban's anything.
And I suppose depending on what version of history you're reading they
invented the stuff.
I'd imagine you can burn up a fair amount of BP with the CAS, and the Swiss isn't cheap.
Hopefully the new WANO Schuetzen BP will be as good as I've heard
it is, It'll be priced about the same as GOEX. I don't actually care for the
Swiss in my bigger bores, I prefer rifle grade for them and I've got enough Swiss in me to resent pouring the large doses of the pricey stuff
down my shotgun bores.
Speaking of the Corps, one day I was shooting the 500 yd Silhouettes
at Frienship and there was this old gent watching very intently, when that
relay was over he was still there so I asked him if he was interested in LRML he said he thought it looked pretty fascinating I asked him if he'd like to take a shot or two at the Ram, he got real excited, I showed him how to load the Whitworth he got out to the firing line assumed the sitting
position, set up the sling and out pops the elbow and it was immediately apparent he was a jarhead, he the proceeds to whack the ram first shot, when I asked him if perhaps he'd been in the corps he seemed surprized, and said he had, turns out he retired after 30 yr's he'd been in WWII and Korea but hadn't fired a rifle since. except to take his Grandson and Nephews Deer hunting once, apparently you guys never lose the ability to handle a rifle.
Regards fredj

LOG EYE · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2003, 06:08:10 PM »

Hey River, since it's free Ill put in my 2cents. Being a banner of a day here in lower SE Michigan today{50 degrees!}, I tried out the 777 2f vs my usual Goex 2f. At 25 yd they both shot point of aim with 45gr in my .54 1/66 patchball T/C Renegade. At 50yd the Goex was still point of aim but the 777 was about 7 inches low! I fired again and the next shot was right next to the first one. I added 5gr more and pow, 10 ring. After looking at the granule size of the 777, I noticed that the powder does not fill the pwder measurer as tight as the Goex, so you have to increase the gr's to compensate. It works for me. The biggest difference for 100yds was I had to wet patch/dry patch after 3 shots of Goex{70gr} and was able to shoot 10 with the 777! It sure was fun to be burning any powder

KING · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2003, 06:32:49 PM »

:-D Well,,as far as im conserned ya all can bite my big and ugly butt. It seems you guys have been out and having fun with yer rirles and I gots to sit home. Just fer that,im gunna go and do it next week,and shoot som. In case I ferget,there is a big MUZZLELOADER gun type event in Kalamazoo on the think its the 15-16 or march. Im headin out there for probably the weekend. I ya see a big bald guy with a lotta scars onna his face,with a goatee...that will be me.....just dont pull the damn thing...... Im looking for the makins fer a big bore mzl rifle fer deer and above. Hopefully see some of ya there...King

River runner · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2003, 01:18:56 PM »

Now King, don't ya go getting that nasty ole soot all over that pretty white snow, and whatever ya do "don't eat the yellow snow" or your trusty Lab might have a good laugh, I know mine would, they gots a strange sense of humor. RR

mamaflinter · « **Reply #7 on:** March 29, 2003, 02:59:36 AM »

River Runner I'm surprised at your findings. Swiss performs at its highest in small bore rifles. Small bore meaning at or below .45 calibers. In the large bores it's not as good as it is too fast burning for them. You need slow burning powder for large bores but for small bores you need fast burnign powder.

Another thing I've found is that you can use 3fg Swiss to prime with no noticeable lock time increase in flintlocks.

I've tried this theory in my custom built vernor. It's a pre-revolutionary war era longrifle in .40 caliber. All that rifle has ever seen has been 3fg Swiss with me shooting it. My daughter tried some Elephant in it until she was informed the Swiss would perform better. The elephant was ok but not as quick to ignite as the Swiss.

KING · « **Reply #8 on:** March 29, 2003, 09:46:48 AM »

Greetings gentleman. been awhile since I had a chance to chat with ya. I thought that I would let ya know that I ordered two cases of black...1 of Swiss and 1 of Elephant,each case has 10 of 1f,and 10 of 2f,and five of 3f. Went out and shot the .45-70 two weeks ago,but was so cold could hardly shoot. Also got a couple more molds for the .45's for experimenting with. Both are Lyman molds in #2640471 & 2640658. I thought that it would be some fun shooting them. Have not loaded any lately as I have the house kinda cleaned up on account of having to show it. Got that out of the way,so this week I will load and hopefully shoot on the weekend. Will let ya know...stay safe...king

mamaflinter · « **Reply #9 on:** March 30, 2003, 04:36:33 AM »

KING Be careful with that Swiss. Don't go too far over the one grain of powder per caliber ratio or you will find your accuracy suffering. It doesn't take near as long to achieve your laws of diminishing returns and you will also find that if you exceed this you will have a DIRTY barrel. When you overload with Swiss it is extremely dirty and this will be one of your visual signs.

River runner · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2003, 04:05:09 PM »

Mamaflinter, My .54 is definitely a weird one. It has allways preferred the 3F for some reason, won't shoot worth a hoot with 2F, infact when I forst got it, I designated it as a wall hanger because I couldn't get decent accuracy regardless what I did with the the 2F. The 3F seemed to cure all the ills as far as accuracy is concerned. I'm only using the Swiss 3F in my .32 flinter though, as fredj, informed me the pressures are much higher than any other 3F BP.

My .32 with the Swiss 3F and greatly reduced loads is shooting one holers at 25 yards all day long to the point it's allmost boring, At 50 yards it'll keep 'em within a 1 1/2" which is pretty good enough for grey squirrels and cottontails.

Checked out you web site and it was really informative and interesting to say the least. Best Shooting Loose Noose

mamaflinter · « **Reply #11 on:** April 01, 2003, 04:19:34 AM »

River runner you are also comparing apples to oranges. You simply can't compare rifle grade powder to sporting grade and expect the same results. My suggestion to you would be to try the 2fg or even 1-1/2 fg in it and see how it does.

Yes the .32 does quite well with 3fg. My hubby uses it in his Crockett. If you do your part the rifle does its part.

Glad to hear you like my site. Is there anything else you'd like to see put up there that I don't have up as of yet?

River runner · « **Reply #12 on:** April 01, 2003, 12:30:58 PM »

Mamaflinter, I've tried the Swiss 2F, KIK 2F, Goex 2F, and Dragon 2F, and in a moment of madness---cringe---Pyrodex Rifle grade. Haven't had access to Elephant here though, and the Dragon 3F out shot the whole bunch and burned nice and clean. I checked the owners manual and it allows the 3F, don't reckon they were talking about Swiss 3F though. RR

mamaflinter · « **Reply #13 on:** April 01, 2003, 12:45:36 PM »

Quote from: River runner

I checked the owners manual and it allows the 3F, don't reckon they were talking about Swiss 3F though. RR

That's my whole point. The only loading manuals that do load with Swiss are European manuals and all of their loading data is with Swiss in mind. That's why when American shooters buy a European muzzleloader, they are often surprised with the "skimpy" charges in comparison to what we are used to here. It's because the Swiss is a much more powerful powder.