.32 or .36?

[rimfirehunter]

Been looking at the .32 Crockett and .36 Shenandoah for a while now but cant decide which to get for small game hunting.  Over the last few months I have read a lot of positive post and articles on the Crocket but virtually nothing on the Shenandoah.

I have heard of people using #1 or #0 buck in the Crocket instead of cast/swagged purchased balls.  Given the price of the 5lb bags of buck I can see why people would use them instead of buying balls.  Is this a common and safe way to shoot the .32?

For the .36 the one thing that keeps my attention is the ability to use conicals for larger game at short ranges.  Our state allows the .36 to be used during small game season for squirrel and big game for deer while the .32 is restricted to small game only hunting.

rimfirehunter

[ribbonstone]

Have a .32 and a 36, but not in the models you mention.  The Honday O buck (.320") is a bit large to use in this .31ball, the ball fitting more like a maxi-ball with no room for a patch.  Your 31 barrel may be a few 1/1000ths larger and have less trouble.

Never had the urge to try the .36 on deer...have suspisions I'd be less than thrilled....but my state specificly spells out that UNDER 45 isn't allowed.  Oddly, they also spell out that over .36 isn't allowed for small game...so the people with a .38, 40, or 42  are pretty well stuck for a legal game use.

So..if I were to follow the rules, I couldn't down load a big bore to shoot small game except if it's done duing big game season (and even then, would proably get into a debate with a game officer if he was being a stickler).

LIke both of them for small game...the difference in effect is minor.  Think I'd still get the Crockett in 32 as I like the simple lines, but that's a personal prefernce and not a ballistic preference.

Oh..can get the Shenendoah is flint? That may not be your prefercne, but now I'm thinking for my own use as I prefer flint to percussion.

[Birddog6]

IMHO.....  Forget the deer & the .36 cal....... Just wasting a deer & making an animal suffer needlessly. Use something that will take the deer down & keep him down, I suggest a .50 cal or larger.

As for the Crockett rifle, good lil gun & quite accurate. Here is one a guy is selling used & only shot 30 times. Sounds like a deal to me.

http://members2.boardhost.com/TradeBlanket/msg/7687.html

[Dave K]

I would buy what ever gun I fancied more. The killing power of a 36 over a 32 is a moot point. Both are good small game guns, both are not big enough for big game.

[wilded]

You can use #000 buck in the .36 and shoot it for less also.

The #1 buck in the .32 works fine with a thick patch

#0 buck loads very tight and is super accurate but slow loading for hunting :grin:

[ribbonstone]

Wish I shot enough to be seriously worried about the cost of lead ball.

[Slamfire]

If you want to eat the game killed with the rifle choose the fastest twist rate you can find, the caliber isn't as important. The usual charges of 25 grains of FFFg with a prb are pretty high velocity loads and simulate the .22 magnum in meat damage. Faster twists rates allow you to load less powder to simulate the .22 lr. 10 to 15 grains of FFFg would be a better load for eatin'.
I know most states require the use of a .45 or larger for deer hunting, but my grandpappy told me that his grandpappy never had anything larger than a .36 and he didn't lose many deer. My first was shot with his .32-20, the power of which I can easily equal with my .36

[Birddog6]

That .45 cal limit is there for a good reason. It is to keep idiots that think they are Annie Oakley from shooting at deer with .22 rifles.  

Killing a deer normally takes bullet energy to penetrate & get to the kill zone when you are shooting a slow bullet.  You hit a rib with a small bore PRB & you have No penetration.  Why do you think they have a limit on the deer caliber ?  Because test results & experts have determined the bullet size & energy required to down the animal is a .45 cal or larger. It is not there just for the fun of it, it is a requirement for a reason.

Oh I grant you that if you hit the deer behind the ear or in the eye or possibly shoot a small deer in the chest cavity & not hit a rib, it can & will penetrate to kill it.  But chances of you or anyone else making that shot is extremely slight & the chances of you just wounding the deer & it getting away are extremely high.  

There are some people that just never learn their limitations, so they make laws to compensate for that.

I do like the Grandpapy story tho !!    Your grandpappy's grandpappy was killin cougars too with a slingshot at the age of 4 back then.   Dang they were tough in those days, huh ?    :lol:

[Dave K]

In my part of Ohio, there really weren't any deer since about 1840's, until fairly modern times. That is why most old Ohio guns are small bores. Only had small game to hunt. Sure you can take a deer with a small bore, but it probably is not legal to do so and there is a good reason why it is not legal to use it. I am fortunate enough to really enjoy guns. You really can't find a  gun that can do it all. First of all there is NO gun that does ALL things well. It is probably great at some things and "make do" at best, on other things. So I now have an excuse to have another gun. The laws do  us all a favor for two reasons. I can have more guns, :grin:  and the game is humanely harvested by a properly placed and sized bullet.

[sharps4590]

I'd take the 36 simply because I like that caliber better than the 32.  Either one is fine for small game and whichever you choose you'll probably be happy with.  I've never  owned either rifle you mention so I can't speak to that, just the caliber.

Forget the 36 for deer or anything much bigger than coyotes in close, even if the 36 is loaded with a conical.  Sure it will kill a deer.  So will a 22 LR and lots of poachers prefer the 22, but they're criminals by nature and definition.  In my state 40 cal. is the legal minimum for deer and anything is legal for small game.  I can't endorse the 40 for deer but it will kill one.  There just isn't enough horsepower in the 40 to suit my tatstes.

Vic

[ribbonstone]

There was a time when they made .38's...would let you use the same .375" balls that are used in percusion .36 revolvers.

By the same token, a nice .46, sized to take the .454" ball of persusion pistols would also be nice.

[Slamfire]

I do like the Grandpapy story tho !!    Your grandpappy's grandpappy was killin cougars too with a slingshot at the age of 4 back then.   Dang they were tough in those days, huh ?    :lol:

No they were pennyless, had a hard time scrapin' up enough money to pay their taxes with. Buyin' somethin' like lead and powder was a real strain on the budget.

Does you estimate of how unpenatrable a deer is make allowances for the difference between hot and cold weather, alert and relaxed mental state? Those things make a difference you know.  

[Birddog6]

No they were pennyless, had a hard time scrapin' up enough money to pay their taxes with. Buyin' somethin' like lead and powder was a real strain on the budget.  

What brought that on ?   :?  What does that have to do with anything in the thread ?  I said absolutely nothing about their wealth or welfare.

 Does you estimate of how unpenatrable a deer is make allowances for the difference between hot and cold weather, alert and relaxed mental state? Those things make a difference you know.  

You have got to be joking..........     :-D   No..............  I am not sure if they checked if the deer was alert, relaxed, standing up of sitting in a recliner.  Nor do I know if they checked to see if the deer was hot or cold or if the weather was hot or cold, whether he ate green grass for lunch or pine cones or raided grandma's pea patch.

But I can tell ya this for certiain.......  This "Differences" you state don't mean a thing to a  .50 or a .54 cal RB with 75 grains of FF  behind it, as it    W I L L   take the deer down, regardless of the weather, regardless of the conditioning of the deer, regardless if he is napping or awake, regardless of him beind tired,  cold,  hot,  etc., & regardless of the weather.  
And if that really makes a dif. on your .36 cal, then I suggest you get a larger caliber adequate to relieve you of the difference limitations..  Be a real bummer to be out ther all ready to shoot your deer, have him all warm & soft & relaxed & then all of a sudden he gets a cold chill & stands up alert & ruins your shot !   :roll:   Dang that would be really aggravatin'.  :-D

However, I can now see it is a total waste of time trying to reason with you.  Your posts prove without doubt of your vast experiences hunting deer with also the general ballistics of ML's & you apparantly know much more than any of us old timers that have been shooting deer with ML's for 30+ years.  
I mean, heck, your grandpappy's grandpappy's grandpappy told ya, right ?  Who am I to argue with that....   :lol:

Good luck with your deer hunting.  It was entertaining talkin to ya.  :grin:

[TNrifleman]

I don't have a 32, but would like to work with one for small game, mostly squirrels. I do have a T/C Seneca in 36 caliber and really like it as a small game rifle. Shot placement is important so as to not ruin that fine squirrel meat. I eat what I hunt. A .22 rimfire rifle is my choice when I ain't burning black powder. Good luck to ya!

[ribbonstone]

Thaink that's a pretty good anology...treat a .32 as if it has the usefullness of a .22LR or .22mag.  and treat the .36 as if it had the usefullness of a .32-20.  Good for about the same range of critters...dissapointing if you try to move them out of their weight class.

Posswible to kill deer with a .36,,,yes...but it's also possible to kill one with patience, a salt lick, a tree stand, and a cinder block; using the .36 of big game is just about as sporting.

[Dave K]

It is good to compare a 22 rimfire and a 32 rb. They both weigh about the same, 40gr. Just like someone once said that a 50cal. rb was kind of the 30-06 of Ml'ing. They both shoot or can shoot, the same weight projectile,  round ball weighs 180gr.

[danny clifton]

A deer is not some sort of super animal. Untill trappers started trapping in the rockies very few guns were bigger than 40 unless produced without rifling. Encounters with grizzlys and buffaloe sparked the demand for large bore guns. There has been a pile of deer killed with a "squirell rifle". A 36 will go through a deers rib or shoulder blade. Just not at 100 yards. If you dont believe me get a 1 inch thick piece of oak. Shoot it at 50 yards. Those old timers could follow a track after a shot and like bow hunters had the sense to sit and let the deer get sick. A rib or shoulder blade is no where near as tough as that piece of oak by the way. Any rifleman capable of hitting a squirell at the top of a tall tree can put a ball into a deers heart, lungs or brain.

[Birddog6]

A deer is not some sort of super animal. Untill trappers started trapping in the rockies very few guns were bigger than 40 unless produced without rifling. Encounters with grizzlys and buffaloe sparked the demand for large bore guns. There has been a pile of deer killed with a "squirell rifle". A 36 will go through a deers rib or shoulder blade. Just not at 100 yards. If you dont believe me get a 1 inch thick piece of oak. Shoot it at 50 yards. Those old timers could follow a track after a shot and like bow hunters had the sense to sit and let the deer get sick. A rib or shoulder blade is no where near as tough as that piece of oak by the way. Any rifleman capable of hitting a squirell at the top of a tall tree can put a ball into a deers heart, lungs or brain.

Well, that is partially true.  And of course this is just an Opinion, all of us have one......

1:  The .36 may go thru a shoulderblade if it hits it directly.... but if you do hit it directly in the shoulder with a .36 cal, you will not find the deer most likely, as he will be long gone cause you missed the good part of the kill zone (if not all of it depending on how the deer is standing) especially for a small caliber rifle.

2:  Small bore rifles were used back then because of one thing..... the preciousness of the powder & the ball........   Deer hunting was not an option, there were hardly none left to hunt from about the late 1770's till the 1900's.  Oh yes, I am sure a feller lucked into one now & then, but if you read books of old times that are about the indians & settlers, it is told many times over they kept pushing west for lots of reasons, but one of the main ones was because they were starving & needed more food.  They shot what they had to shoot & what was the most concervative. (small bores)   There was no concern of how humane it killed the deer of how long it took them to die.  They needed food & used what they had to get them.  Believe me, if powder & shot was as easily to obtain athen as it is today, if they were deer hunting they would have used a larger caliber for a sure kill.  This was survival, not sport.    Another good example is the Buffalo hunters.  You think they used a large bore for the fun of it ? No. It was easier, faster, more sure, and it took the buffalo down.......

3:  Back then a feller could track a deer fo Miles & Miles........ Because it was the difference of starving & not starving.......  99 out of 100 guys hunting today couldn't track a deer for 50 yards, let alone a mile.  Think not ?  Listen to the hunters today & the stories of hiow they hit one but lost it........  Thousands of them.......  They shoot them with HP rifles & still lose them !  ha ha !   not just now & then but thousands of deer every year.

4:  With the choices we have today & the prices available for an assortment of rifles that are so cheap but yet so adequate to deer hunt with,  why anyone would even consider using a .36 cal to deer hunt is simply beyond me.......  To me that is like going to WV & VA into the mountains to drive all the back roads with a Yugo.....  Yes, it may get ya up & down there, but  IF it will do it, how safely & how long it takes ya is sure questionable........

Now we can argue all day on the caliber that is adequate to deer hunt with.  But ask 100 ML hunters & see what they say.  At least 75 out of the hundred are gonna say .50 cal & larger.  And of those other 25 they will say a .40 or .45 cal will do it, but then ask them what THEY use & about 15 of thesame guys will tell ya a .50 or .54 or .58.  And then you always have a few that just have to try it with no regards to how many they wound (and won't tell ya either) and you will never convince them they need more energy for the kill.......

I am not saying a .36 will not kill one, I am saying there are LOTS of larger & better calibers for doing the job better.  And that is exactly why they have laws regulating those calibers.

[lostid]

I'd like to quote all of bd6 post above,,
,, an then say, ay-men!

dannyclifton;;ya right,,learn to shoot the .32 first..then go deer hunt :-)

or should I say; then go "hunt" deer?

[Slamfire]

 than any of us old timers that have been shooting deer with ML's for 30+ years.  
  :grin:

You've been real nice to me, and so I'll treat you in the same manner. Are you sure you don't have 1 year's experience, 30 times?
 :roll:

Try readin' my posts and tell me where I said he oughta, I just think I said it could be done.  

[Birddog6]

 You've been real nice to me, and so I'll treat you in the same manner. Are you sure you don't have 1 year's experience, 30 times?
 

Come to think of it, that is probably very true in many areas. However few of these areas apply to ML'ing or hunting deer with a ML.   :-)

No, your posts did not say he Should  or Oughta hunt deer with the .36 cal.  However, when reading you posts I feel it can easily be interpreted as you believe it is adequate, and possible.
Anything is possible.. you could kill one with a slingshot, be all the circumstances be exactly correct to do so.  

However,  when a person is new at the sport & asking a question of the limitations of a particular caliber,  I feel one should tell that person the best & safest way for for the hunter & the game with Reason, not just what is just possible.   :-)

My posts are not meant as a flame to you or you responses & if they are so taken that way, I appologize for the misunderstanding.  I am just trying to head the guy to what I feel is the correct way & best way for him & the game he is hunting.....    :-)

Have a good day.   :-)

[roundball]

Are you sure you don't have 1 year's experience, 30 times?   :roll:

Just for general information, you evidently don't know BirdDog6, but I've come to know him for a few years now, and I'll go ahead and say what he's a little too proud to say on his own behalf.

He's extremely knowledgeable and experienced in the world of muzzleloading, from shooting and hunting year round since the 70's...during which time he's used and experimented with a wide variety of calibers, projectiles, loads, wads, powders, percussions, flintlocks, rifles, and smoothbores...has singlehandedly built a successful business making custom flintlocks from scratch...and in the years that I've known him, I've come to realize if he says it, I can take it to the bank.

We are all free to go along as we choose, of course, but FWIW, his advice is accurate and well intended to try and help...your comment of "1 year of experience for 30 years?" seems a little strange...I can't find anything in the thread to justify why you would say such a thing to a man who went to lengths to try and share real world experiences for free.

[Dave K]

Who ever this Birddog dude is, you are probably going to make him blush! :lol:

[lostid]

Who ever this Birddog dude is, you are probably going to make him blush! :lol:

 
Dave K. ?
read the archives,,watch,,read,,learn. it's a good thing if you follow BP arms an stuff, an bp shooting skill's. He'll always' share his knowledge and experiance.
 Besides,,Bd6 won't blush no matter what ya say,,if ya blush at his age,,,,it's an indication our med's are out of balance!! :-D !!
  The interesting thing about this thread, is the guy that posted it (?),,is still reading! :-D

[Birddog6]

Who ever this Birddog dude is, you are probably going to make him blush! :lol:

Ha ha ha !  Ok Dave....  I will remember that the next time you build a double barrel flinter.............  ha ha !   :-D

You are Who ?   Dave...........  Dave    WHO ?   ha ha ha ! :grin:

[roundball]

Who ever this Birddog dude is, you are probably going to make him blush! :lol:

Dave, you got your Flint double all primed and ready for Doves?
Labor Day will be here before we know it...my Navy Arms .12 is ready...got to get a field lined up somewhere

[Slamfire]

I do believe it is possible, cause I have done something similar with that .32-20. I gotta admit that I wouldn't do it today, 50 huntin' seasons have given me more respect fot the deer. I weren't angry, just tryin' to get you out of the comedy mode. I've not got .30 years of muzzleloader experience, but I know that bigger bores ain't always the answer.   See yah!

[jgalar]

Looking at the "Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual" it shows a Buffalo 36 caliber 125 grain HP Conical going 1943 f/ps with a muzzle energy of 1048 ft/lbs using 70 grains of Goex FFFG.

The same charge with round ball gives around 2211 f/ps and energy of 706 ft/lbs

Is this enough for deer? You decide.

[Birddog6]

OK......  You can nitpick this to death & come up with alll the possiblities &  sposes ya want...........  Past experience with Most of the ML deer hunters is...........  if you want to take the deer home & have some certainty of it at all, go with .50 cal. or larger & don't waste a deer.

  Also, Muzzle Energy don't mean zilch when deer hunting. What matters is the energy at 50 to 100 yards & the dia. of the hole it makes.  That .36 cal. RB  has aprox.  150 to 175# of energy at 100 yards (depending on the barrel it was shot at.  (according to My Lyman book)  (I don't have that conical in my book, (or cannot find it) but I know it has considerably less energy at 100 yds. than the muzzle energy,  175 - 200# ?)

   And that lil tiny .36 cal. hole you just plugged into the deer is gonna clog up & about 1-2 minutes & he will quit bleeding, all the while he is running at about 25 MPH & leavin the country & putting you standing there wondering about a mile away.

  In closing:   Get a caliber to do the job adequately & don't go with Possiblys.

Birddog6

[jgalar]

The original post did mention close range shooting. The 36 caliber rifle shooting max loads with conicals shoots basically the same 36 caliber size bullet as a 357 magnum with more energy than one can get from a standard loading in a 357 revolver. Check the single action and revolver posts there are a lot of people dropping deer with 357 magnum revolvers. There isn't any doubt in my mind that there are better caliber (larger bore) muzzleloaders that would be better for larger game, but to answer the original post I gave the info. I personally would not chose it for deer hunting.

What is more important in the 32-36 discussion is how well the guns will shoot light charges. The guns are after all for small game. The goal is to anchor small game without blowing the cr@p out of them. The Traditions guns have a rather slow rate of twist which usually works best at higher velocities.

I don't have the 36, but my crockett does shoot very well with a 15 grain charge. This is by no means a long distance load, but gives aprox 22 rimfire performance to around 50 yds.