Blasts rock London...

[powderman]

FWEIDNER. Never thought you'd say it, but I must agree with  you.
LEVERDUDE. Just leave the turban at home and smile a lot.  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D . Just messing with ya.     . POWDERMAN.

[Leverdude]

So what should we do? I agree they've likely got people here who are just biding time but what do you do?

Now before I'm misunderstood I see nothing wrong with racial profiling & because of the way I choose to look I'd not be suprised if I was the one pulled off the line & I think I'd deal with it just fine. It makes sense & would be effective.

I would look at it like I did when they were stopping the traffic in White River Junction in VT on Rt91 south. At least theyre trying, might be inconvinient for me but they just might nail someone. For some reason they stopped that tho.:?

 But it would sure piss me off if I couldnt take a bus or a plane because I'm not all clean shaven & pretty.

[Leverdude]

FWEIDNER. Never thought you'd say it, but I must agree with  you.
LEVERDUDE. Just leave the turban at home and smile a lot.  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D . Just messing with ya.     . POWDERMAN.

Good Idea  :-D  I mostly wear baseball caps now anyhow.  

[jeager106]

Hah! 'Nuther  "what to do about the Mulsim terroists" thread.
 :-D
Kill the sumbithces that's what!
And fer ya liberal faint of heart out there let me explain that i don't mean genocide, which is the wrong term, it would be more akin to ethinic cleansing anyway and I don't mean that either.
i mean kill the gawdmaned terroists.
The PROBLEM:
WHO ARE THE TERRORISTS???/
Well my in my humble opinion ALL MUSLIMS ARE!
You see I've read there are 1.7 to 2.3 BILLION Muslims and it's pretty much been established that roughly 10 to 15 % are actively involved in extremist movements.

O.K. you bleeding heart liberals do the math yet???
If it were exactly 10% that were actively involved in extremism that would amount to 1.7 to 2.3 MILLION extremest Muslims that want only one thing.
YOU DEAD!
Duz ya git it?
You, your kids, parents, everyone not Muslim DEAD.
Pretty simple, what? They HATE us.
Now you go and reason with them if ya want and I'll bet'cha they chop your head off with a very dull knife. Then laugh about it.
 :evil:  See that devil? That is how they see YOU!
Wanna play peacemaker with 'em? Go ahead. I'll watch.
Now the PROBLEM: Show me who the terroist is? The British Bombers were British citizens, second generation, the guy next door and all the Brits that personally knew them were shocked that they would do such a thing as blow themselves up and kill innocent men, women and children.

As a group all Muslims support terorrism by thier SILENCE. The major Muslim clerics say nothing. Millions of U.S. dollars are funneled into extremist organizations via "peaceful Mulims" in this country.
They 'enemy" could be ANY Muslim, the guy that runs your corner grocery or the local motel could be the guy that blows up the local WalMart at Chistmass.
The Muslims themselves need to speak out against the muderous violence or they are absolutely PART OF IT.
The Muslims themselves need to drag thier religious asses into the 21st century and soon or one of two things will happen.
We will accept the fact that we ARE IN A HOLY WAR WHICH THEY DECLARED and we will destroy thier infrastructure and send them back to eating goats and sleeping with camels, OR WE ARE GOING TO CHURCH IN A MOSQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MGMorden]

I know that this subject tends to bring up strong emotions, but if this thread mirrors the attitude of most Americans then we're in trouble regardless of what the terrorists do.

We are all people on this planet, and all men are created equal.  To suggest wiping out entire groups of people based on their religious affiliation and/or ethnicity puts you right up there with Hitler himself (after all, he "only" killed 6 million Jews.  there are over 100 times that many Muslims in the world).

The thing that we have to look at, is that any religion is capable of heinous acts.  The crusades were largely a matter of we Christians butting into their business.  There's also the Spanish inquisition, the Salem witch trials, southern slavery, the KKK, etc.  These things don't make all Christians any more evil than current atrocities make all Muslims evil.  

Let us not forget that America is the great melting pot.  We've always stood for freedom, and very few of us are truly native to this land.  Americans can be of any race and any religion.  To deny freedom or rights to any particular group merely because of their affiliation is to destroy the values that our country was founded on.  It simply does us no good to live in a police state, even if you're not the ones currently being policed.

None of this is about being "offended" or "politically correct".  This is about pure right and wrong; this is about the very essense of what our forefathers fought to protect.  I'd rather "go down fighting" and hold true to our values than to force our beautiful country into a bastion of hate.

Below is an excellent modernized adaption of the old poem "Then They Came For Me":

Then They Came for Me

by

Stephen F. Rohde, Esq.


   First they came for the Muslims, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Muslim.

   Then they came to detain immigrants indefinitely solely upon the certification of the Attorney General, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an immigrant.

   Then they came to eavesdrop on suspects consulting with their attorneys, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a suspect.

   Then they came to prosecute non-citizens before secret military commissions, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a non-citizen.

   Then they came to enter homes and offices for unannounced "sneak and peek" searches, and I didn't speak up because I had nothing to hide.

  Then they came to reinstate Cointelpro and resume the infiltration and surveillance of domestic religious and political groups, and I didn't speak up because I had stopped participating in any groups.

   Then they came for anyone who objected to government policy because it aided the terrorists and gave ammunition to America's enemies, and I didn't speak up because......   I didn't speak up.

   Then they came for me.......  and by that time no one was left to speak up.

[Rogue Ram]

The "melting pot" has turned into a blender, the contents of which have been dumped into a septic tank.  "They" want to kill "us", yet "we" give "them" the right to come here.   Far as I'm concerned, it was festival seating, the stadium is full, shut and bar the door (starting with the open barn door to the south), and deport ANY of them that are here illegally. What we do after that (i.e., sit around until they kill "us" because we let them be citizens) is another matter, one of which I'm glad I'm not the guy making the decision.  What happened in Britain is coming to a theatre near you, very soon. We haven't won "the war on drugs" or any other criminal matter yet by putting people in jail, or "gitmo".  So where does that leave us?  Its not going to be pretty no matter what happens.

RR

[jeager106]

TM7:
My math?
Opppps. Yer right! But that is a LOT of raidcal extremists. :eek:

[ironglow]

FE352;
  I asked for New Testament examples and you gave me some, but I don't believe they are valid.
   You seem to be saying that Matthew 23:1-3 and Matthew 10:34 are attempts at inciting violence.
 
   Matt 23:1-3 (Jesus speaking)
   
 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples saying:
   
    "The scribes and the pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do."

  Wow! where is the violence being incited there ? As I read it, Jesus is simply pointing out where the scribes and pharisees have failed to live up to the scripture and Jesus is telling HIS followers to ignore those who in effect, say "do as I say, not as I do."


Matt 10:34 ( Jesus speaking)

  " Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."

  There is NO incitement of violence there ! Jesus is simply warning his disciples that people will hate them (and kill them) for their beliefs:
   
   (e.g. vs. 36 " and a man's enemies will be of his own household".)
 
  We have seen this in our own lives where families have shunned one who converts to a different venue..but that is their business..
  In times past however, people were killed for the same

  Shortly thereafter, the Roman authorities murdered thousands for converting to Christ. Often these Christians were divulged to the roman authorities by their own family members..

  Go back to Matt 10:21,22... He clearly outlines that the sword will be brought against Christians.
  Yes, Jesus did indirectly, cause a sword to be brought against his disciples, but in no way did he advise them to go out slaughtering others...not even their persecutors.

  When reading scripture always remember the context...and remember that " text out of context..is simply pretext ".

    Our "misunderstandings" with the Muslim community would be greatly modified if we would see more condemnation and cooperation from the general Muslim community.
   When we see that the bulk of them either support the terrorists or are not much interested in seeing them punished...it speaks volumes, without them saying a word.
 
"All we have to do to see evil triumph, is for good men to remain silent."

   I am a Christian..but if I had knowledge of someone who called themselves Christian and was murdering people in that name...I would turn them in immediately...with no hesitation.
  Even if that "Christian" is killing other killers, as in the case of the abortuary bombers.

     The alleged "bigotry" would be largely erased, were we to see more cooperation with the law and a clear shunning by Muslims in general, of the radical clerics and college professors..

   Perhaps if some of the Arab countries would start extraditing terrorists they catch back to the countries where they committed their crimes, so they can face justice by the people they terrorized...they would be more believeable.

[powderman]

IRONGLOW. Agreed Sir.
MGMORDEN. I sympathize with what you say, but we are not dealing with rational human beings here. These are a sub culture that put no value on human life. Not yours, mine, their childrens, even their own.  I have to leave for work, maybe more later. POWDERMAN.    

[jh45gun]

I realize it is fruitless to reason with blind prejudice, however; Mohamed was born of Bedouin parents circa 569.  His father died shortly after his birth and his mother died when he was about 8.  He was then raised by an uncle where he worked as a shepherd boy.   At ten he accompanied his uncle as a caravan leader.  He was later a caravan leader.  There is never any mention of him as a warrior, soldier, or warlord.  In later life he was a merchant and had married a well to do widow.

The Koran does not teach hate towards non-Muslims any more than the Bible does towards non-Christians.  As for tolerance, estrangement of a member of ones own family, over religious faith, is not exactly a demonstration of it.

I would submit that expressions of prejudice based upon ignorance, are exactly the same justification used by Muslim extremists.  The scriptures, of every religion, have been used by people to justify their hate and prejudice, but in the end it is always the personal bigotry of an ignorant hand full, not the command of the divine.

A simple fact is these terrorists are killing far more Muslims than Non-Muslims.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

MGMORDEN "I know that this subject tends to bring up strong emotions, but if this thread mirrors the attitude of most Americans then we're in trouble regardless of what the terrorists do.

We are all people on this planet, and all men are created equal. To suggest wiping out entire groups of people based on their religious affiliation and/or ethnicity puts you right up there with Hitler himself (after all, he "only" killed 6 million Jews. there are over 100 times that many Muslims in the world).

The thing that we have to look at, is that any religion is capable of heinous acts. The crusades were largely a matter of we Christians butting into their business. There's also the Spanish inquisition, the Salem witch trials, southern slavery, the KKK, etc. These things don't make all Christians any more evil than current atrocities make all Muslims evil.

Let us not forget that America is the great melting pot. We've always stood for freedom, and very few of us are truly native to this land. Americans can be of any race and any religion. To deny freedom or rights to any particular group merely because of their affiliation is to destroy the values that our country was founded on. It simply does us no good to live in a police state, even if you're not the ones currently being policed.

None of this is about being "offended" or "politically correct". This is about pure right and wrong; this is about the very essense of what our forefathers fought to protect. I'd rather "go down fighting" and hold true to our values than to force our beautiful country into a bastion of hate.

Both of you have to look back into history to see these folks have tried to dominate the world and in a lot of cases darn near succeded. Why should they stop now? It is no coincidence that they are in every nation of the world today. I agree with Powderman you cannot trust any of them they have a plan and we are not part of it. The only reason any of them deal with us is money. they had the oil and we had the money. You guys think these folks are so great go to the Accurate reloaders site which is run by a Muslim. He bashes Bush and the Americans every chance he gets even though he went to college here. Another case of getting every thing you can from the Americans then spitting on them. Powderman and I go there just to shake them up. I agree with the premise non of them like us or are our friends they just tolerate us to as a end to their means. Jim

[fe352v8]

I realize that a number of people have no regard for human life, the flaw in classifying “all Muslims” as the “enemy”, is that these terrorist are killing other Muslims in far greater numbers and frequency than non-Muslims.

As an American I believe that my countries ideals and values were expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the ConstitutionÂ’s Bill of Rights.  Living up to those ideals and values requires that one be willing to accept risks.

One of the risks, for living in a free, open, and democratic society of law, such as we enjoy, is the risk that such a society is vulnerable to attack for from a person or group that does not recognize the right of an individual.  I would rather face that risk then compromise the ideals and values that gave rise to the freedoms and liberty that this country has enjoyed in the name of security

To label “all” members of a religious group, the enemy, does nothing but demonstrate a lack of faith in the ideals and values, this country was founded upon.  This does not mean we should not be vigilant or aware, but this must be tempered by the ideals and values expressed in the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.

If we as a society no longer posses the will, or courage to face the risks of freedom, then the sacrifices we have requested of, and have been made by, all the men and women in the pursuit and defense of those ideals and values expressed in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, will have truly have been in vain.

There are some things worth dying for, the ideas and hopes of our founders, as expressed in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, are among them  

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[jeager106]

"To label “all” members of a religious group, the enemy, does nothing but demonstrate a lack of faith in the ideals and values, this country was founded upon. This does not mean we should not be vigilant or aware, but this must be tempered by the ideals and values expressed in the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution."

I disagree with the 1st part, but appreciate the thrust of the thought.
We cannot trust ANY Muslim. Just because they are killing more Muslims that us western infadels means that they are far more ruthless, bloodthirsty, murderous, and DANGEROUSE than most people would have thought.
I don't know about you but I sure as hell can label all Muslims the "enemy" without violating anything in our Consitution, or breaking our laws one iota.
The sad and sorry truth is that any Muslim is a potential mass murder.
Nothing in that statement breaks any laws or shows any disrepect for our Consitution.

[MGMorden]

I don't know about you but I sure as hell can label all Muslims the "enemy" without violating anything in our Consitution, or breaking our laws one iota.
The sad and sorry truth is that any Muslim is a potential mass murder.
Nothing in that statement breaks any laws or shows any disrepect for our Consitution.

(emphasis above is mine)

Indeed you are correct.  No statement can ever violate a law or the constitution, because our constitution allows free speech (and rightly so).  That's the reason we can come together and freely talk about issues like this.

That being said though, there have been suggestions within the thread of not allowing Muslims (or worse dark skinned people.  A lot of people give a suspicious eye towards Indians these days; their most common religion is Hinduism and I've never met an Indian that had a grudge against the US) onto transportation systems.  A few have even suggested the erradication of all the Muslims.

While these statements don't violate our laws, the actions they propose most certainly would.  Fe352v8 also mentioned violating the ideals of the Declaration of Indepence.  This document is not a law of any kind; it is meant to state the ideals that our country is founded upon.  This states that in effect we are founding what is to be a free nation.  All men will be equal.  A large majority of our country CAME here escaping religious persecution.  To instate such an attitude here is to fly back in the face of the very reason for our country's existence.  

If you look back throughout history there are extremist groups doing all sorts of crazy things.  The Greeks conquered a large part of the world in their time.  The Romans did as well (both while under their old belief system and after adopting Christianity).  Ghengis Kahn was so ruthless in destroying villages and cities, and made a policy of raping all the women in those villages, that nearly 1 in 8 people today can tie their ancestry back to the man.  The British in far more recent times conquered a HUGE portion of the globe.  

Heck the Romans used to go out and watch each other hack each other to death stadiums for entertainment.  They would torture and kill Christians in public displays in ways that go beyond horrific.  Yet we owe a large deal of our culture and most definately the spread of our religion to the Romans.  

You can take virtually ANY group in they have in the past or the present had whackos who do stupid and vile things.  That doesn't make all of that group bad or evil, and it CERTAINLY does not mean that they as a group are incapable of rising above their current situation.

[fe352v8]

I made no reference to law, but rather the ideals and principles implied by the documents, read the Declaration of Independence, and the preamble to the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, there are no except or but this group or people.  While we as a society may not, YET, fulfill the implications of these documents, better to strive towards, than to retreat back to the sectarianism and division that the authors strove to be rid of.

To condemn and demonize an entire religion or group  based on the action of a very small number of some individuals, is to engage in the same rationality used by these terrorists to justify their barbarity

Are all Catholic priests child molesters?  Are all Protestants anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic white supremacists?  Are all whites, blacks, browns, yellows or reds racists in respect to one another?  Are all anti-abortionist clinic bombers?

The fact that an individual Muslim is a terrorist and then concluding that all Muslims are therefore terrorists, while possibly being part of a logical syllogism, is still just bigotry and hate mongering.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[FWiedner]

The fact that an individual Muslim is a terrorist and then concluding that all Muslims are therefore terrorists, while possibly being part of a logical syllogism, is still just bigotry and hate mongering.

I love it when political correctness creeps into the conversation of ideals upon which the nation was founded.

Almost everybody falls for it.

There's nothing in any of those documents that speak even slightly against hating your enemies, preferring your own race and it's culture to another, or against just plain not liking people who are different than yourself.

Don't look to the founding documents to justify PC.  It's not there.

While these attitudes are considered somewhat unsavory in the modern pussified America, they are human, and usually entirely justified.

I believe that our nation would benefit greatly at this point in time from being able to call a spade a spade and not having to feel guilty about it.

 :wink:

[fe352v8]

"I believe that our nation would benefit greatly at this point in time from being able to call a spade a spade and not having to feel guilty about it."

What a lovely (not to mention revealing) phrase.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[FWiedner]

"I believe that our nation would benefit greatly at this point in time from being able to call a spade a spade and not having to feel guilty about it."

What a lovely (not to mention revealing) phrase.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

The phrase refers to the use of correct terminology with reference to defining types of digging tools.  It is most often used as a euphemism to mean "speaking plainly and bluntly".

Is this the revelation to which you refer?

Or is it time for another lesson in PC?

 :roll:

[fe352v8]

“There's nothing in any of those documents that speak even slightly against hating your enemies, preferring your own race and it's culture to another, or against just plain not liking people who are different than yourself.”

WeÂ’re talking about digging tools?

There was little man in Germany once, with a bad hair-cut and a silly mustache, who hated his “enemies”, preferred his own “race” and “culture”, and just plain did not like people “different” from himself either.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[FWiedner]

I don't see where you're making a point.

The several items that I mentioned are neither unusual, nor are they immoral.  They are normal human behavior.

Can you show me any passage in the founding documents to contradict what I have said is not there?

What is it that you feel is wrong with having normal human emotions and desiring to live according to your chosen preferences and among your own people?

You challenged the phrase and I explained it's meaning to you.  That you choose to apply some alternate conotation is your issue not mine.  Raise your sights and read it for it's intended meaning, not whatever PC BS you wish to arbitrarily assign to it.

There is nothing wrong with feeling this way, and it's time for people to get out from underneath the political correctness jack-boot and to begin living like human beings again.

 :?

[fe352v8]

What political correctness?  Hating, loathing, disliking, lack of toleration, or whatever term you prefer, for an individual because they are of a different, ethnicity, culture, heritage, religion, or other superficial traits is irrational.

It would be un-natural not to have emotions, however if one does not temper those emotions with the rational thought they are capable of, then our human emotions are simple animalistic responses to stimuli.

PC-BS are things such as, “he/she”, “person-kind”, and other such drivel.

As to direct contradictions to your right to, “hating your enemies, preferring your own race and it's culture to another, or against just plain not liking people who are different than yourself”, in the founding documents, you are quite correct there are none.  

However a phrase such as, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal …”, or the Fourth Amendment, “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.” would clearly seem to indicate that idealy these founders belived that the government  envisioned would respect a person based upon that individuals merits.  True this applies to the government, but these founding documents also make it clear that we are the governmernt, as evidenced by phrases, such as “We The People”, or “Goverments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed”.

In the course of this countries history  the word people, in “We The People”, has come to include more than just, free, white, land ownig, males.  In time it may truly mean people.

As  you stated:

 Â“There's nothing in any of those documents that speak even slightly against hating your enemies, preferring your own race and it's culture to another, or against just plain not liking people who are different than yourself.

Don't look to the founding documents to justify PC. It's not there.

While these attitudes are considered somewhat unsavory in the modern pussified America, they are human, and usually entirely justified”

Based upon the context of the discussion, I did not feel it was an unreasonable possibility, that perhaps the word “spade” was not in reference to a digging tool, but rather was being used as a crude racial epithet.

Even though it appears that the phrase, “usually entirely justified”, is used in reference to “hating your enemies, preferring your own race and it's culture to another, or [against] just plain not liking people who are different than yourself.”, allow me to indulge in what some may take as just, a bit more PC-BS, by offering my apologies if you feel offended that I felt that your views, as expressed, appeared somewhat bigoted or prejudiced to me, perhapes I just misunderstood what was meant by "just plain not liking people who are different than yourself".

For the sake of clarity I have no qualms with hating ones enemies, just with the method it, appears is being used to determine them.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[powderman]

fe352v8. The Godless ones started this war, not us. Muslims are dedicated to the destruction, and total anhilation of every man, woman, and child that are not muslim. Open your eyes, read their koran, there are 123 times in their holy book that instruct them to hate and kill all, ALLLLL, non muslims. They are no more than satans disciples in my opinion. You want to trust them?? More power to ya. Move into one of their little baghdads, most never intend to be Americans, they just want the perks, not the responsibilities of being American. Some are drs, and other professional folks, thats fine. The scum that flew the planes on 9-11-01 lived here. Just average folks, yeah right. The soldier who fragged his buddies, and the snipers, all recent converts to islam. They can't be trusted. Their mohamed was a real nice guy, praise allah. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x

[jh45gun]

On the news last night it showed a whole bunch of Muslum school kids chanting Kill Americans so Tell me our resident liberal that they are not taught to hate us from babies.  :x  It is right to hate all muslums well no it may not be heck ordinary muslums are getting killed by their own too,  but is it right NOT TO TRUST ANY OF THEM! DXXN right if you think any thing of your hide. These folks do not wear a uniform so you can tell the good guys from the bad guys.  I do not trust any of them for that reason and fe352v8 get a life, as much as I argue and disagree with Fwed alot calling a spade a spade is a common saying in this country expecially if your a older person.  This country is too darn PC and we are suffering for it. Another legacy we can thank the liberal pukes for.

[ironglow]

I wouldn't trust any religion started by a pedophile...
  ...And that by his own admission...no wonder they like to keep their women as virtual slaves...just taking a cue from the boss...

    I will start to believe the existence of "moderate" muslims when i see pictures of them taking the terrorists in their midst down to the police station at the point of a gun..
   Or even perhaps, when the Palestinians start extraditing those " stupid-cide bombers" to Israel for justice..along with all their cohorts they can round up...

   Something tells me those "moderate" Muslims are secretly cheering the terrorists on...did you see the videos taken in the streets of Palestinian cities on 9/12/01 ?

[fe352v8]

I find it harder to trust those who claim religious beliefs, when their speech and actions only reflect the dictates of their faith, as suits them.

For those who fear, a bit of ShakespeareÂ’s, from Julius Caesar:

Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard,
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[jh45gun]

I find it harder to trust those who claim religious beliefs, when their speech and actions only reflect the dictates of their faith, as suits them.


Guess your not going to trust anyone then.  :grin:

[fe352v8]

I have found it prudent, to be wary of those who wrap themselves in a flag and or scripture; they are frequently neither patriots and or adherents, but politicians and or petty little bigots, regardless of the flag or the scripture they don, and they usually lack the courage to personally live up to views they vocalize.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[ironglow]

Jeepers Fe...sounds like Liberals and their deeply held "religious beliefs"  in humanism, Marxism, socialism etc,etc.

[jh45gun]

Seems to me the 'terrorist' are fighting against corporate globalism--I'm serious--the same thing that many conservatives and some liberals dislike. They perfer the world as it was many years ago. If western governments and their banks and corporations didn't have an obsession with 'one world government' perhaps they wouldn't have such a big beef with us as their culture would be more perserved. So, the extremist most likely believe they are fighting for their very existence. Rhetoric like 'liberty', 'freedom', and 'democracy' are code to them and means foreign religous domination and imposition of foreign and global control. Frankly, I think the 'terorist' are being used to futher globalism in a sense. Corporate globalism will be the end the U.S. as we know it, too.
Besides, 'terrorism' wouldn't be too effective if media [particularly conservative media] didn't harp on it 24 hours a day--seems like media serves to drive home the fear [for security reasons] and expedite government's inherent trend towards total facist control of everything, which is what your one world government will most likely be.


......................TM7

Nice thoughts and ideas but look  back in history these folks have been warlike for years and when not fighting others fight against them selves. Heck they kept Mauser in business more than any other market. They also if you look back in history have been trying to take over the world and create their own empires for years. Even the ones that some consider normal not extremist due to their religion consider us infidels. No they would be against us anyway. It seems Ironic that our need for oil has given these camel jockies the money to fight against us.

[ironglow]

Shucks TM7...sounds like you're trying to blame everyone BUT the terrorists  for the terrorist acts...
   No matter what the provocation, there's no excuse for the irresponsible murder of men, women and children.
   Especially the children...who carry no blame for what those boneheads don't like..
   
  Don't even THINK about making any kind of excuses for such scum !

[Leverdude]

Shucks TM7...sounds like you're trying to blame everyone BUT the terrorists  for the terrorist acts...
   No matter what the provocation, there's no excuse for the irresponsible murder of men, women and children.
   Especially the children...who carry no blame for what those boneheads don't like..
   
  Don't even THINK about making any kind of excuses for such scum !

Now let me say first that I'm not making excuses for them (terrorists) but how many kids & women do you suppose we kill when we send in missles & bombs. Just as they kill noncombatants we do too. They do it intentionally & we justify it because we get the badguys mixed in with the people who just happen to be walking down the street at the wrong moment.

I suppose things like that dont fuel their hatred towards us & create new extremists.  A kid walking down the road with his mom see's the American jets coming to free his people from the dreaded Islamic terrorists. Then boom, mommy is pulped & he remembers for the rest of his life who did it.
Seems reasonable to me he would hate America & if the oportunity arose seek vengence.

I think TM7 hit it on the button. They want us out, its that simple. But we wont leave because of whats over there we need. They dont want our culture & we dont want theirs. So whats keeping us there?

We can sit here & talk, trading ideas & thoughts forever but the obvious driving force behind all of it is oil & our need for it.
If we need the oil that bad we should anounce like men that we intend to control it at all costs & do what needs doing.
 If we really want the moral high ground then we should leave all other countries alone if they arent asking our help & those who ask we should think long & hard before putting ourselves on the line.

Our current course is setting the stage for globalization which cant be good for any freedom loving American. Isolationism did us alot of good for the first 135 or so years & even WW1 wasn't a huge shift in forien policy but since WW2 or at the very least Korea we been fighting for principles instead of transgressions & that cant help but ruffle feathers of other countries or religions or people who hold different beliefs or goals for their future.

I have no trouble letting them rot in the desert riding cammels praying to Allah & looking for water. Thats where they would be too without western oil money.