warm barrel flyers

[stumpy]

I ahave been a lurker around here for a while and have been impressed with the amount of knowledge here...I am sort of new to TC weapons although I have used and have many other rifles....anyway I have a question I have a Bullberry 300WSM barrel (23")  which I have been  trying to tweek.  I have finally found several loads which seem to shoot well in this rifle/barrel combo but here is my sitution..I can get  3/4 - 1/2  MOA with this barrel if I allow the barrel to COMPLETLY cool between shots ( I know this is what your suppose to do) but if i try to fire 2 -3 round without waiting at least 10 minutes between shots the group opens up to 5-8 "  1st shoot dead on  2nd shot 1-2" out 3rd 5-8 inches out. after the  third shoot the barrel is warm but no where near "hot" and it is still cool after the second shoot...I have many rifle and have never had a rifle that would open the groups up to this extend with 2 -3  rapid shoots....after all although I pride myself on 1 shot kills there may be a need for a second/third shot followup...
Please I do not need a lecture on letting the barrel cool between shoots I was just wondering if anyone else has seen this and/or can offer me some reasons why this may be happening and what I might try to correct it..or is it just a quirk of the TC Encore. As i said I have never had a rifle open up the groups this much in this manner  and its hard for me to believe any rifle/barrel cam change this much with so little tempature change.
For the recoded I have changed and checked scope, rings , bases.  All components  were all  top end  " best money can buy" models/products.
And also  The rifle always returns to zero  if the barrel is cold but  fire 2 or more shots rapidly and this occurs.

Thanks in Advance

Stumpy

[hunting1]

In my encore I get the same. If you don't let it cool they will start flying. I agree, my other rifles don't do it, but I just let cool longer and it is alright.

[stumpy]

Cisco,

Thanks for the welcome and reply...the forearm is the one BB sells with/for their barrels (hanger system)...I have checked it for clearence and tightness etc. It also has a  Mike Bleam (sp)   hinge pin to remove play form barrel/reciever...it  is his #1 pin hole was never really loose just replaced it with his 1 size over as he recommends on his site.  the rifle was doing the same thing before i replaced it so i do not think it is the problem....the problem diffinitly seems to be heat related...was wondering if the lug which is welded to the bottom for the hinge pin might expand?contract at different rate thus troquing the barrel somehow.  did not know if anyone else has ever seen this problrm.
was wondering if a cryo treatment might help
open to any and all suggestions

thanks
Stumpy

[stumpy]

Cisco,

Agan thanks for the reply,  I must say that when I ordered the barrel Fred tried to talk me out of it as he explained that everyone he had made was very hard to get to shoot..he especially mentioned that he felt that the factory winchester ammo was "junk" and had many reports of there ammo having load inconsistencies from round to round from the same box. Fred told me that the only way I would ever get the barrel to shoot would be to use handloads...now I feel I have a load that will shoot but as explained above it is truly making my encore a "single" shot...I could no doubt reload my 50X209 or 45X209 musselloader barrels quicker then letting the barrel cool.
Also I forgot to mention above I have a 23" 22-250 barrel from BB and it does not have this problem and shoots like a dream....
I have heard so many reports about the Browning and Winchester rifles getting good groups "out of the box" with factory ammo in this caliber (300WSM) it makes me wonder if for reasons only know to the "encore gods"  that this caliber  is not meant to work with the encore...this aside from the discussion about  "frame streching" "to high pressures" etc.
Like I said I have many rifle and have never seen anything even close to this kind of  flyers from any barrel even when they were "hot"

thanks
Stumpy

[hyltoto]

:shock:  Thermal expansion/contraction is very powerful. I've always cringed at the TC forearm with two screws and no expansion clearance. The lug weld probably is very stressed. When it gets hot it probably expands in some unpredictable way. The only thing I can think of is have the whole thing stresses relieved. I think CRYO would be the way to go.
VVA offers it.

[UMB]

Hey Stumpy,

 I've never tried this with and Encore or Contender but I had a Rem 700 that had  just a  little up pressure on the barrel at the end of the forend that helped keep the group tight when it got hot. Some kind of shim or such may be worth a try.

[Underclocked]

I read somewhere, and now don't recall where, that T/C had a run of barrels that were not properly stress-relieved.  If you have such a barrel they will replace it.  Sounds like you do.

[rpseven]

I use to have a Ruger in 7mm that did this. The first shot would be right at 3 inches high @ 100 yds and as the barrel warmed up it would start shooting high and to the right about 4 inches and this is where it would start grouping. Funny that I found this post about your barrel/problem because I just emailed fred@BB the other day to see if he made the wsm's and he said that he didn't. I have already asked T/C several months back if they were going to make them and they said that they(wsms) would create pressure problems. This question that you ask has been a curiousity to me also because I have found that several rifles that I have owned have done this. The same problem, a clean cold barrel it would put it right in there and then once it fouled and warmed up it would have a different point of impact, I have always disliked this to because it seems to me that if its a good barrel/bullet combination that it shouldn't matter wether the barrel was fouled or hot it seems to me it should shoot in the same place. But What do I know. I have a BB barrel on order I hope it shoots good. Good luck.

[DannoBoone]

stumpy - Just one more suggestion in this long list. I have heard of this
problem you're having being due to the hanger bar itself. If the screws
anchoring the bar to the barrel are so tight as to not allow independent
expansion, your problem can occur. The barrel expands, but the bar being
held away from the barrel does not. If the screws are too tight, the hanger
bar can actually pull the barrel. Some guys have used LocTite on the
screw threads and tightened the screws just tight enough to keep the
forearm from wriggling.

 You could try just snugging up the screws and attempt a rapid fire group.
If it works, then go ahead and use the LocTite.

[stumpy]

Thanks to all who replied: DannoBoone I will try your suggestion as it about the only thing I have'nt tried except for getting it CRYOed . Got 6" of snow last night so it will be a while..besides I am off to Argentina to hunt Red Stag tomorrow and its warm there now.
Again Thanks to all and I will report back when and if I get it figured out.

Good Shooting

[rpseven]

Just wanted to say Good luck on your Red Stag hunt. Sounds like fun.