Author Topic: Small-scale rifled gun? (Read 2062 times)

BillinOregon · « **on:** July 10, 2005, 09:55:30 AM »

Seems an awful lot of the recreational cannons are smoothbores. But years ago, I stumbled on a cannon shoot out in the Oregon Desert near Fort Rock and several of the fellows were shooting Parrot-style and other rifled guns. Most of the shooting was over when I stopped by, but after looking at some paper targets I was astonished by the accuracy of the guns. Seems like a couple of them were built using surplus anit-aircraft barrels -- Bofors, maybe? Anyway, do any of you shoot rifled guns? I was thinking that even a black powder rifle barrel set up for, say, that Lyman .69 conical, would be fun converted to a cannon barrel.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #1 on:** July 10, 2005, 10:21:15 AM »

Bill -

There have been several references to these in the past, so there ARE folks here that use them.

Also there are several surplus sites that market sections of most every caliber of modern cannon out there.

Charcoal · « **Reply #2 on:** July 10, 2005, 01:56:33 PM »

Big Sky Surplus sells rifled barrel sections from 20mm-76mm.They have always had a table at the Knob Creek(KCR) shoot since ive been going.They have many interesting items.

http://www.bigskysurplus.com/

guardsgunner · « **Reply #3 on:** July 10, 2005, 03:18:54 PM »

I shoot a rifled 1.5 full size civil war gun. Rifled ourselves. our new project will use a surpluss barrel.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #4 on:** July 10, 2005, 03:26:25 PM »

Quote from: guardsgunner

I shoot a rifled 1.5 full size civil war gun. Rifled ourselves. our new project will use a surpluss barrel.

I'd love to see pix or at least a discussion on the rifling process!
Did you build special equipment for this?
Cut rifling I presume?
It would be well worth starting a new thread!

Powder keg · « **Reply #5 on:** July 10, 2005, 03:29:24 PM »

Quote

Cut rifling I presume?
It would be well worth starting a new thread!

Please do :grin:

guardsgunner · « **Reply #6 on:** July 10, 2005, 03:38:31 PM »

I think I lost all of the pictures I had saved on my former computer when it went belly up. I will look.
I made a rack & pinion type machine.Rack is attached to a sine bar that gives the rate of twist, as it moves forward on the bar the rack moves under the pinion gear rotating the cutter head. I started with the carriage on linear bearing but changed it to a I beam to make it more rigid.

BillinOregon · « **Reply #7 on:** July 10, 2005, 08:50:47 PM »

Charcoal: Found Big Sky using Google, but they sure aren't giving away any barrels!
Guardsgunner: How many lands/grooves and what is your wtist rate in the 1.5-inch gun?
Anyone: When Parrot had his 10-pounder rifles cast at the West Point Foundry, did they use a rifled mandrel to cast around, or did they rifle after casting? Original Parrot twist rate, anyone?

Charcoal · « **Reply #8 on:** July 11, 2005, 06:35:38 AM »

Quote from: BillinOregon

Charcoal: Found Big Sky using Google, but they sure aren't giving away any barrels!

Nope,but if BATFE gets its way :cry: on the importation of barrels not found suitable for sporting purposes,the current price may seem like a bargain :shock: .

I guess we will be back to making barrels again.Although beyond my capabilities at this time,Im looking forward to any info on making your own rifled tubes.Has anyone looked into ECM for rifled big bores?

guardsgunner · « **Reply #9 on:** July 11, 2005, 08:56:59 AM »

BillinOregon,
Parrott's were rifledafter casting. If I recallcorrectly, the rate is one in 126". I will look in the Ord. manual when I get a chance.
Rate on mine is 1:60" 15 L&G . aprox. 28 deep.

We went with the original(or close) rate of twist of the gun we copied.

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #10 on:** July 11, 2005, 10:53:26 AM »

A rifled barrel is very appealing. Most of us have probably seen the History Channel show where the accuracy of rifles barrels was shown. It also showed the cannoneers machining each round out of zinc on a lathe.

Has anybody calculated the largest size bore where a lead Minie ball round would be safe? I know 0.58" is since I shoot Minie balls in my repro rifle. The More Complete Cannoneer has some figures for max weight of a projectile. A lead Minie ball would be cheap to shoot in a smaller barrel and it would be fun to get some real accuracy.

Steve

guardsgunner · « **Reply #11 on:** July 11, 2005, 11:03:38 AM »

I shoot a minie ball of sorts, look like a read shell but with a deep hollow base out of the 1.5.

jeeper1 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 11, 2005, 11:31:14 AM »

Would the Lyman 12 gauge one ounce hollow base slug work?

guardsgunner · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2005, 11:09:51 AM »

Billin Oregon

I could not find the rate of twist info for the Parrott's. The ord. rifle is at 1: 11'.

GGaskill · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2005, 12:09:14 PM »

As I recall, the Parrott has gain twist rifling. I will check the AOP folio tonight.

Cpt Ed · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2005, 02:10:22 PM »

Â“Field Artillery Weapons of the Civil WarÂ” Revised Edition on page 109 states for the 2.9-inch (10-pounder) Parrott Rifles, Federal. Â“Its rifling had a 2.9-inch land diameter, right-hand gain twist (more rapid spin toward the muzzle), with three broad flat lands and grooves sensibly equal in widthÂ”.

Also on page 111, for the Confederate 2.9-inch (10-pounder) Parrott Rifles.

Â“A drawing dated 12 June 1861, discovered during the recent restoration of Tredegar Foundry, was probably a draftsmanÂ’s concept of an actual Federal 2.9-inch (10-pounder) Parrott rifle. Two of its details deserve attention:

1. It defines the twist of the rifling as one revolution in 16 feet.Â”

Note: the anonymous draftsman may not have measured the Federal Parrott or was told not to specify.

Rick in MS · « **Reply #16 on:** July 13, 2005, 10:08:12 PM »

First off I'd like to say Hi. I've never posted here before but I've been lurking around reading this forum like a kid in a candy store. My original interest when I found it and still is was to find information building a flintlock.

I ran across this post tonight and had to head for the bookshelf for something that has been in my wifes family forever. It's an 1864 translation of an 1861 French book titled "The Movement of Projectiles From Rifled Cannon". It was translated, so the title page says, by W. LeROY BRAUN lieutenant-Colonel Commanding Richmond Arsenal. There is a table near the back that gives the specifications of several guns (didn't count but I think about 20 or so). On the 10 pounder Parrot it gives the following: Length of Helix 16 feet and the number of grooves is 3. There is a little more info there but I hesitate to flatten this thing out in the scanner being that it is close to 150 years old.

If anyone is interested I'll try to take a good picture of this page with the digital camera and post it. Doubt the copyright, if it ever had one, is still good> :grin:

Heck, I'm only about 50 miles fom Vicksburg and work puts me over there once or twice a month. There is bound to be a 10 pounder in the park somewhere to measure from. :roll:

Rick

Double D · « **Reply #17 on:** July 14, 2005, 01:35:05 AM »

Rick, a double welcome to you! One for you and one for that book, what anawesome find.

Give us a book report. What is in the book?

Rick in MS · « **Reply #18 on:** July 14, 2005, 07:53:36 AM »

I've only skimmed through sections of it. I have wanted to figure out how to copy it for some time so I could actually sit down and read it. It looks as though Broun (spelled right this time) did not do a direct translation but presented the theories from the original book in his own words as they pertained to the equipment they had at hand with references to weapons they were producing and using thus the table I mentioned. The equations he has are presented to show that experiments could be made with smaller caliber weapons and what was learned could be directly applied to the larger stuff as long as you accounted for certain things.

For a time that had no electronic measuring devices like chonos and such they were getting a darn good grasp on what was going on and how to control it.

I'll try to post some pictures of pages tonight.

Rick

A little history. The book I believe was originally in the library in Natchez, MS. They had a fire down there some time ago and sold off books to collectors to pay for rebuilding the library. My Wifes grandfather was an avid book collector and evidently bought a ton of stuff at that time. Most of it was sold to another collector in Vicksburg after he past but I saw this one when they were going through things and couldn't put it down. My wife ended up bringing it home :lol:

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #19 on:** July 14, 2005, 02:49:35 PM »

Rick -

As DD said you're doubley welcome!

You have an historical treasure. It should be taken to a University Library where it can be microfilmed before the paper disintegrates.

At least have it scanned.

Check to see what it would cost. I'm sure we could take up a collection and cover it for access to a copy or e-copy.

Thanks,

Tim K.

Powder keg · « **Reply #20 on:** July 14, 2005, 03:48:14 PM »

Hey, I'll pitch in. Just let me know. Later,

Double D · « **Reply #21 on:** July 14, 2005, 04:38:07 PM »

William Leroy Broun

CAV Trooper · « **Reply #22 on:** July 14, 2005, 05:16:32 PM »

Just as a thought, Track of the Wolf has a 10" long, .58 caliber pistol barrel for $49.99 and a 9" long, .54 caliber barrel for $24.99 (on sale). Both are 15/16" in diameter and have a 1 in 20 twist rate. Add the proper barrel plug (flintlock), drill a touch hole and you have a neat little rifled cannon.

The possible downside is the actual barrel shape but an octagon cannon might look really cool.

I haven't completely figured out the trunion attachment yet but hey...I can't be expected to do all the work on this project can I? :-D

Powder keg · « **Reply #23 on:** July 14, 2005, 05:55:23 PM »

Someone with some skill and equipment could turn the barrel round and insert it into a larger slug. That could be profiled to the desired shape. I've been thinking of building something simular. Maby a 1/6 ish scale parrott.

Rick in MS · « **Reply #24 on:** July 14, 2005, 08:43:52 PM »

OK guys. See if you can read this OK Here is the Title page, Preface and the table I mentioned before.

The Movement of Projectiles from Rifled Cannon

I'll get more up as I get time and fix the format so you can view it a page at a time.

Any comments or suggestions welcome.

Rick

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #25 on:** July 15, 2005, 12:43:58 AM »

Quote from: Rick in MS

OK guys. See if you can read this OK Here is the Title page, Preface and the table I mentioned before.

The Movement of Projectiles from Rifled Cannon

I'll get more up as I get time and fix the format so you can view it a page at a time.

Any comments or suggestions welcome.

Rick

PRICELESS!

Very easy to read, and most interesting.

It will be exciting to compare this to Dr. Mann's work, "Flight of the bullet ..." published in the 1920's - a collection of his experiments with cast bullets and a desciption of exterior ballistics from measurements of where the bullet was and what angle it was at in small increments out to 100 yards.

THANKS!

Double D · « **Reply #26 on:** July 15, 2005, 12:55:56 AM »

Quote from: CAV Trooper

Just as a thought, Track of the Wolf has a 10" long, .58 caliber pistol barrel for $49.99 and a 9" long, .54 caliber barrel for $24.99 (on sale). Both are 15/16" in diameter and have a 1 in 20 twist rate. Add the proper barrel plug (flintlock), drill a touch hole and you have a neat little rifled cannon.

The possible downside is the actual barrel shape but an octagon cannon might look really cool.

I haven't completely figured out the trunion attachment yet but hey...I can't be expected to do all the work on this project can I? :-D

Numrich will sell you a 27 inch 1 1/8 58 cal bbl for $42.50.

Cpt Ed · « **Reply #27 on:** July 15, 2005, 04:25:14 AM »

Here is some additional information about and from William LeRoy Broun, Lieutenant-Colonel of Ordnance of the Confederate Army, commanding the Richmond Arsenal, who contributed the following article to the Â“Journal of the United States ArtilleryÂ”, of April, 1898:

http://64.17.146.9/Written%20Accounts/Periodicals/confederate.htm

Rick in MS · « **Reply #28 on:** July 15, 2005, 09:15:17 PM »

I have the first 35 pages scanned and uploaded. 25 left to go. You can reach them one at a time by using the URL

http://www.websterdaylilies.com/Broun/images/Page-1.jpg

Just paste it into your browser and change the page number to whatever you want.

http://www.websterdaylilies.com/Broun/images/Page-25.jpg

That will get you page 25. Use any number up to 35 for now with the exception of pages 2 and 4 which were blank and not included here.

I'll work on an interface this weekend that will make it easier to navigate and hopefully get the rest scanned.

Thanks for the links to the Broun info. That was pretty interesting. When I get the interface working I'll add those in somewhere.

Enjoy,
Rick

Cat Whisperer or Double D. Can I email you something offline to get you opinion on?

Double D · « **Reply #29 on:** July 16, 2005, 07:25:38 AM »

You guys think that stuff is neat just wait until until you see the inscription in this book, go ahead and post it Rick! Hold onto your hats!!!