Author Topic: Fully Free-floating Handi Fore-stocks (Read 2559 times)

McLernon · « **on:** July 13, 2005, 04:30:08 PM »

This thread was inspired by the thread on Holding Zero When Changing Barrels:

If tightening the fore-stock against the spacer helps consistency in POI and group size what will fully free-floating do, I wonder? By fully free- floating I mean that the fore-stock touchs( is bedded to) the barrel for a distance of only 3/4 inch in front of and behind the hold-down screw AND the spacer is CLEAR of the action by say 1/32 inches. In addition, my fore- stock screw will tighten up metal-to-metal because I had a pillar fitted into the fore-stock.

This scenario seems counter to what Quick has found by experimentation to be the most beneficial for barrel harmonics/accuracy/POI.

It is however simple to execute and it would seem to be more repeatable with respect to assembly/disassembly since the fore-stock is essentially 'metal-to-metal' tight( ie not sensitive to tightening torque).

I had planned to do this for some time now but I thought I would seek input before going ahead, especially in view of Quick's experimental results.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks

McL

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** July 13, 2005, 04:51:15 PM »

I think that each rifle is as individual as us shooters and what works on one, may not work as well or not at all on another. But some combination or another should provide accurate results out of any barrel that is sound. I don't think it hurts to try many different things, as Perklo has shown with his forend bedding in the FAQ.

Tim

stuffit · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2005, 05:18:27 PM »

McLernon,
I did this:

with a new beavertail forend I put on my BC 45-70 and accuracy has been as good as one minute three shot groups with some loads (my 360 gr cast NEI GC over 31.5 grs of 5744 in particular). I used shims to position the barrel and 30 min epoxy for the "pillars". I didn't use the metal insert in this stock (though I may). The walnut is pretty hard and so far the screw hasn't seemed to alter its tension.

Then, with a K Hornet barrel we have using the forend off of an original .280, I did this:

with 5 or 6 layers of masking tape. Accuracy immediately showed a dramatic response though the loads we were shooting were cast GC 50 gr bullets at about 1800 fps fire forming Hornet to K Hornet brass, 50 yd groups went from 3" vertical stringing to .60" all touching groups of five. I did have to fool with the screw tension on this one some, not surprisiingly so with the softer wood. I think the metal base on the outside for the forend screw will help this on this particular stock.

So your notions do work in my experience. As Quick says in esssence, there is more ways than one to skin the Handi "float-cat".
Good shooting to you.
:wink:
stuffit

lonewolf5347 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 14, 2005, 03:39:58 AM »

I have to say with my Handi out of the box it does great any other improvement I think won't improve my groups(everything is stock made no changes))
I did go threw 5 different handi at the shop before I purchase the rifle ,I found the one I picked did have a break on the trigger at about 3 1/2 pounds and it passed the dollar test at the store ,some did not
I think the dollar between the forestock and the barrel test is important for a full free floated barrel,I found if you push the handi more then 3 shots the 4 rounds start to climb about an inch,let it cool right back to dead center
I am a happy Handi customer could not be more pleased with the gun

:-D

McLernon · « **Reply #4 on:** July 14, 2005, 04:06:15 PM »

Hello Stuffit and Lonewolf

One question, were your Handi's spacers tight against the action or gapped? I'm just trying to get some idea of what I can expect when I gap the spacer so that it doesn't bear on the action. Adding tape or epoxy pillars, I would think, would tend to further tighten the spacer against the frame when the screw is tightened unless some other modification is made. Please clarify.

Thanks for the info.

McL

stuffit · « **Reply #5 on:** July 14, 2005, 06:18:20 PM »

McLernon,
I'm going to address this with regard to the BC and the epoxy pillars because the other stock was an impromptu arrangement and I'm not sure of how it affected the spacer. I'll just say it did not seem to bind it and there was space between the stock and the barrel for my paper guage. I was also concerned about how much the procedure would affect the spacer in the BC so I applied the epoxy in stages, first with the barrel not in the action. I used shims of strips of old photos and placed them at the junction of the spacer and the stock, just proximal to the rear pillar, just distal to the front pillar, and at the tip of the forend. In about two steps, I had achieved the space I wanted (that allowed a strip of typing paper to slide easily in the "free" areas), between the stock and the barrel for the entire length, except, of course for the pillars which supported it. Then I put the last layer of epoxy on the pillars with the action on the barrel and closed, shims in the same places graduated in thickness from back to front, and tightened the forend screw up but with less than maximum torque. I expected this to give me a solid bedding that allowed for the correct fit of the rear aspect of the spacer with the receiver and it did. I'm sure it put it slightly closer but there was no bind because of that last "step" in finalizing the bedding. Keep in mind now, that I was also fitting this semi finished stock to my BC barrel, and with a sandpaper wrapped dowel, I had made the barrel groove slightly oversized. I suspect this is as clear as mud, but, short of showing you in person, it's the best I can do. If you have specific questions about the procedure, PM me and I'll try to clarify anything (probably a lot) that needs it.
:wink:
stuffit

McLernon · « **Reply #6 on:** July 15, 2005, 03:48:50 AM »

I think I understand. If I do, what you have is a 'tapered space' between fore-stock and barrel with greater space near the muzzle end thus avoiding preloading of the spacer. Right?

Thanks for you input!

McL

stuffit · « **Reply #7 on:** July 15, 2005, 04:09:02 AM »

Right! Now why couldn't I be as succinct as that! :lol:
stuffit

tomaldridge · « **Reply #8 on:** July 15, 2005, 05:56:50 AM »

Sunday was a hot day. While trying out some new loads, I used a fairly fast firing sequence. Result in my SB 2 and the BC was a good group followed by serious vertical stringing. Looks like an other wise good Handi Rifle can go wrong when the heat gets to the barrel.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** July 15, 2005, 06:46:57 AM »

My last range trip a week ago was with the 338-06 Ultra, fired 30 shots, first 10 with cleaning in between each shot, next 20 were 3 shot groups with cleaning between groups. Up until around shots 21 or so, I was getting vertical stringing if I didn't wait a minute or 2 between shots. I put an O-ring on the forend stud and shot the last 2 or 3 groups pretty much as fast as I could reload, when I shot the very last group, the barrel was pretty warm cuz even with a cleaning between groups, the barrel was still warm from the last group. Hitting an accurate load, even with the barrel very warm, I got virtually no stringing...... other than my poor shooting!! :oops: The 3rd shot is in the middle of the group.....

Tim

McLernon · « **Reply #10 on:** July 15, 2005, 07:51:33 AM »

Great shooting Quick!! With a heavy caliber like .338 it's amazing. What do you figure your average group size is?

Looks like adding some flex into the fore-stock set up makes the rifle less sensitive to heating effects. Interesting.

McL

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** July 15, 2005, 08:08:22 AM »

Thanks!! Don't know if it's the flex or the floating, with these rifles it just doesn't hurt to try something different with em. One problem with bedding is it pretty much dedicates that barrel and forend to each other which doesn't work if you have more than one barrel fitted to a frame. The O-ring leaves the combination flexible. I have a few different size O-rings I use, this one was a fat one and I really tightened the screw on it. That's the first 30 rounds I've shot in it, the load was a near max load using the Sierra Gameking 250gr BTSP and winchester 30-06 brass. I'm still waiting on some Weatherby 338-06 A-square brass to do final load develpement using 230gr CT Failsafes for an actual hunting load. The Sierras are mainly for barrel break-in since they're cheap in comparison to the Failsafes. :wink:

Tim

Norseman112 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 15, 2005, 08:36:26 AM »

uhmmmm one thing a handi shooter could do if you wanted to glass bed is just get another fore end. I have been thinking of going that route.

Norse

McLernon · « **Reply #13 on:** July 15, 2005, 09:42:10 AM »

O.K. since it is not clear that my Handi needs the spacer to be free of or tight against the frame, I'm going to bed the fore-stock without adding significant amounts of bed material so that I don't affect vertical spacer alignment with the frame. I'll do this by removing wood to create cavities in the bed areas into which the epoxy/aluminum bed material will go. All other areas will have clearance with the barrel and pass the 2X or 3X dollar bill test. I'll probably have to do this in two steps to avoid spill-over of the epoxy.

My first test firing will be without the spacer in place. If the rifle shoots well then I will remove material from the spacer to provide clearance and reassemble onto fore-stock and I'm done.

If I get bad results, I'll leave the spacer as-is and reassemble and retest. If I get better results I will attempt to further improve performance by adding shims behind the spacer to further tighten the fore-stock/spacer against the frame and retest.

How does this sound? I would appreciate your comments.

Thanks

McL

stuffit · « **Reply #14 on:** July 15, 2005, 11:59:35 AM »

eagleeye,
Thank you for sharing that procedure and your insight.

stuffit

Mac11700 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 15, 2005, 12:13:35 PM »

Not everyones rifle shoots the same...nor is everyone shooting style the same.. this is why there are variances in just how accurate our Handis are....and while using the appropiate o-ring works great for most..it doesn't on others...ask Quickdtoo about that...or anyone else who uses a pressure point on theirs.

Some Handi's shoot better with the forearm snugged tight against the reciever...my25-06, 30-06 Ultra-Comp and 243 Ultra-Varmint is like this...it doesn't fall open when you depress the latch..it isn't super tight...but tight enough that you have to push it all the way open...and I think as far as accuracy goes...my groups speak for themselves..

The top group is from my 25-06 Ultra...using a factory Winchester Supreme 115 grain Combined Technology load .

The second group is using my 30-06 Ultra-Comp...and the new Fusion 150 grain load.

The 3rd group is from my 243 Ultra Varmint...using my Handload consisting of Remington nickle cases..Reloader 22 powder and Noslers 95 grain CT ballistic Silver tip...

In all cases the barrels were new and these are the first groups put thru them after polishing the bores and chambers and adding just the orings to them...so...all of them are snug on the reciever...

While it is true some Handi's will shoot with out their forearms attatched...not all do...each rifle is different......all you have to do is to really look at how the forearm cradels and supports the barrel from side to side movement to see why a snug fight here is important..and you can go 1 step further and fully bed the barrel to the receiver as Fred M had to do on his 25-06...this will insure totally no-movement of the barrel...but you will have to dedicate that frame to that barrel to succeed in doing it this way.....

Fully bedding or fully free floating to the forearm stud can and does work...it will depend on your rifle and shooting style.It's best to use some type of shim stock in front and behind the forearm stud to see if your rifle preferes it. or just in front up to the front of the barrel channel for a pressure point..using a large enough 0-ring on the barrel stud will show if your rifle preferes free floating...either way...you'll need to try all 3 ways to see which your rifle likes...Some Handi's shoot fine with out any adjustment to them...I've had many and each has been different...and have taken a-bit of experimenting to see what works best...and it's best not to make permenant changes to it before you know if it will help...or worse...hurt...your accuracy...

Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** July 15, 2005, 01:13:44 PM »

Geez Mac, you didn't leave anything for me to say!!! Well said!!!! :agree: :agree: :agree:

Tim

Mac11700 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 15, 2005, 03:24:15 PM »

How about splainin how you magnatized your Manlicher stock and shimmed out your forearm spacers :wink:

Mac

McLernon · « **Reply #18 on:** July 15, 2005, 04:28:25 PM »

Thanks for all the great responses. I think I'll try some experimentation before making permanent changes.

Thanks again!!

McL

lostsniper308 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 15, 2005, 04:42:36 PM »

Quote from: stuffit

McLernon,
I did this:

with a new beavertail forend I put on my BC 45-70 and accuracy has been as good as one minute three shot groups with some loads (my 360 gr cast NEI GC over 31.5 grs of 5744 in particular). I used shims to position the barrel and 30 min epoxy for the "pillars". I didn't use the metal insert in this stock (though I may). The walnut is pretty hard and so far the screw hasn't seemed to alter its tension.

Then, with a K Hornet barrel we have using the forend off of an original .280, I did this:

with 5 or 6 layers of masking tape. Accuracy immediately showed a dramatic response though the loads we were shooting were cast GC 50 gr bullets at about 1800 fps fire forming Hornet to K Hornet brass, 50 yd groups went from 3" vertical stringing to .60" all touching groups of five. I did have to fool with the screw tension on this one some, not surprisiingly so with the softer wood. I think the metal base on the outside for the forend screw will help this on this particular stock.

So your notions do work in my experience. As Quick says in esssence, there is more ways than one to skin the Handi "float-cat".
Good shooting to you.
:wink:
stuffit

So in the 2nd Pic is all thats done is two spacers/shims/pillars, which ever they are, are positioned either side of the hole to "lift" the barrel from touching the stock at all?(AKA floating)

stuffit · « **Reply #20 on:** July 15, 2005, 04:50:50 PM »

That's correct. We were out in the country and when the accuracy wasn't what I thouht it should be, I added layers of masking/freezer tape fore and aft of the forend screw slot until I could get a strip of paper to slide easily from the front to the shim and from the back shim to the spacer. It greatly enhanced the accuracy.
s.

redcloud · « **Reply #21 on:** July 16, 2005, 01:59:30 AM »

I have been reading posts on this site about this subject for some time now and I really get a kick out of the way some of you cobble your guns together, no wonder they don't shoot the same everytime with o-rings stuck here and credit card shims pushed in over here.
One post even had a guy fixing his loose action by glueing a metal shim to the barrel lug.
If you are going to cobble your gun together with all this junck that is up to you but I find it amazing that you would advise others to do the same.
Heck if your gona cobble the forend on with o-rings just throw away the attaching screw and wrap duct tape around the barrel and forend to hold it on.
I take pride in the guns I own and will not cobble anything together, if I can't fix a problem correctly I will take it to someone who can do the job rite.

lostsniper308 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 16, 2005, 04:00:26 AM »

well ya know these rifles arn't built to the close tolerances of say an ENcore, but for half the price we can get them to shoot as good if not better, and if we gotta tweak em' our selves so beit. Sure some methods seem perhaps odd, i've yet to find a totally wierd method, but they work, and i find that impressive what we can do with a few $$ and some household tools.
SO i gotta ask did you register to put us down?

FYI i will delete this if its outta sync

Ricci Price · « **Reply #23 on:** July 16, 2005, 04:24:41 AM »

Hey redcloud, I got some paper shims in my 243 you wanna have a shoot off?? Got some in my 222 you wanna have a shoot off?? just let me know and I'll show what a little tinkering can do for "factory rifle". Alot of factory guns come with rubber pad (hence,O-ring) in stock . Now back to the subject I full length bed 25-06 with Belzona it helped but I still get the occasional flyer, but like said before that problem lies somewhere else, as matter of fact I shot it yesterday 3 shots in a inch group then two flyers making it a two and half inch group. I GUESS I'LL HAVE TO TINKER WITH IT SOME MORE.

GrampaMike · « **Reply #24 on:** July 16, 2005, 05:43:14 AM »

Hey redcloud...

there is nothing wrong with a little "Shade Tree Gunsmithing". Not all of us can afford to go running to a Pro Gunsmith, or do we want too. We just love "working" on our firearms just like we did on our cars when we were young. Removes us from the BIG problems of everyday life for a little while.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 16, 2005, 05:55:06 AM »

Quote from: redcloud

I have been reading posts on this site about this subject for some time now and I really get a kick out of the way some of you cobble your guns together, no wonder they don't shoot the same everytime with o-rings stuck here and credit card shims pushed in over here.
One post even had a guy fixing his loose action by glueing a metal shim to the barrel lug.
If you are going to cobble your gun together with all this junck that is up to you but I find it amazing that you would advise others to do the same.
Heck if your gona cobble the forend on with o-rings just throw away the attaching screw and wrap duct tape around the barrel and forend to hold it on.
I take pride in the guns I own and will not cobble anything together, if I can't fix a problem correctly I will take it to someone who can do the job rite.

What a nice way to introduce yourself on your first post :noway: ...oh well...if you've been reading post on the subjct..especially here...you would see we all enjoy what we do...and your expression "Cobble" can be construde to mean something very negative...I suggest you actually spend some time on this forum and do a little research on the subject...and see just how accurate we have made our rifles...once you have...please feel free to introduce yourself and enjoy everyones company and share your experiances with the Handi rifle if you even own one...if not...then don't post here just to inflame of start and argument...it's not allowed...period.

Mac

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #26 on:** July 16, 2005, 06:29:14 AM »

Hey Redcloud; We've tried the duct tape and the screw is lots easier,especialy when you're changing the barrels around. The phillps screwdriver is easier to carry in your pocket also. :-D :-D :-D

myarmor · « **Reply #27 on:** July 16, 2005, 06:43:08 AM »

Well put.
I like tinkering with my rifles, be it a Handi or cheap Mil. Surplus rifle. I also appreciate the expertise of a fine Gunsmith and a truly well built rifle, pretty or not, no matter who makes it, Remington, Ruger, or in our case the humble simplicity and ruggedness of the Handi rifle-it just works.
This is our hobby..it's what we do. It's about subjects we love, and the value of the rifle we find in these firearms. I for one am happy I found this forum to be able to learn and share with some cool people who have the same interest as me.

lostsniper308 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 16, 2005, 07:22:04 AM »

the odds are certainly against you here about 1 to the 13362 members here. Also tinkering is..fun! I love to mess around with all my rifles and an H&R is a dream.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 16, 2005, 08:22:48 AM »

Quote from: lostsniper308

well ya know these rifles arn't built to the close tolerances of say an ENcore, but for half the price we can get them to shoot as good if not better, and if we gotta tweak em' our selves so beit. Sure some methods seem perhaps odd, i've yet to find a totally wierd method, but they work, and i find that impressive what we can do with a few $$ and some household tools.
SO i gotta ask did you register to put us down?

FYI i will delete this if its outta sync

It's not...and we will be watching this individuals post on this forum very closely.If he persist in an adversarial way..we will let the Management here at GBO deal with him in the way the do best...they don't take kindly to trouble makers...

Mac