Author Topic: Handi vs cheap bolt rifle (Read 2537 times)

jmckinley · « **on:** July 19, 2005, 07:07:43 PM »

I was reading the bolt rifle forum and they were discussing the 710 Rem, Savage 110 and the Mossberg ATR and felt I needed to post this. I have tried the Savage and Remington and handled the ATR and have formed an opinion on all three. The Mossy is a plastic piece of crap! it may shoot great but it's so cheap as to be a crime. The Savage or Remington guns shot well, but for my money the Handi Rifle is where i'll put my money.I have the Ultra Fluted in 223 and it shoots 3/4 to 1 inch groups all day. The trigger is 3 pounds and breaks smooth as you please. Here in Albuquerque I can pick up and Ultra for $ 239 and NEF for $ 219. I think that either rifle is far superior to the rifles discussed. Fact is that my rifle battery will be built around the Ultra's. I plan 06, 25-06, 243, 223 and finally 45-70 and i'll never feel under gunned or the need for a more accurate or reliable rifle. My opinion, what do ya think?
Jmckinley :-D

Mac11700 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2005, 08:19:27 PM »

It is a good plan...for those of us that know these rifles...and aren't afraid to take a single shot into the woods...it makes perfect sense...but...for those who have already formed their opinions on our little rifles...they will never agree...it's very hard for them to give up a bolt gun...I know...I've done it...and have no qualms about where I'm going to hunt at with them.If...I every get up north where there are big bears...I'll grab my 1895 MarlinGS ...load it up with either some Nosler Partitions...or some Cast Performance...and worry not ...but...in the mean time...I will enjoy my Handi-rifles all the better...

Mac

howard NZ · « **Reply #2 on:** July 19, 2005, 09:20:18 PM »

As a manager of a hunting and fishing shop it constantly amazes :shock: my customers that I have quit bolt action rifles and use single shot rifles including my new handi superlight .243 rifle, I ended up with the Handi because it very short, light, this suits my style and type of hunting. Only once have I needed a quick second shot in many years of hunting which possibly would have meant that I didn't lose that animal( having a goo hunting dog helps). Good hunting ethics mean that only one shot is needed to kill a animal and means dodgy shots are avoided.
Regards Howard.

myarmor · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2005, 03:45:01 AM »

I will admit I love of firearms. All kinds, bolt, single, shoties, rimfires, pistols, revolvers, Mil. Surplus, etc...
I keep going back to my H&R though. I feel I am tested more with it, and shooting it makes me better. I personally can't always say that about all the other kinds.
Hummm....Rifle Battery.....I like the sound of that :twisted:

Varminter · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2005, 04:59:16 AM »

I have quite a few different types of firearms. Levers, semi-auto, revolvers, pumps, bolts, and single shots. But my NEFs are the go-to guns for just about any task.

FirstFreedom · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2005, 05:40:31 AM »

Well, the more interesting comparison to me would be Handi vs. the Stephens by Savage, not Handi vs. 710 (junk), 100ATR (mostly junk), or Savage 110 (good but more $$ than a handy).

The comparison I'd be interested in is accuracy and reliability. Still, even if the Stephens compares favorably, it's still not as short and well, handy, as the Handi-rifle.

glock29 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2005, 06:37:14 AM »

I have firearms of all action types from my Custom Rock River arms AR-15 to my CZ550 Safari Magnum in 458 Lott and I like all the action types.

I however have NEVER seen ANY product from Mossberg that I have liked one bit & quite frankly I'd be ashamed to own quite a few of the new Mossbergs I have examined.

If you can afford a QUALITY Bolt Action (Classic/CRF Winchester 70, CZ550, Sako, Weatherby MkV or Vanguard, Savage 110, Ruger 77 MKII, Mauser variant, etc) I'd opt for the bolt action. Notice I purposely left out the Rem 700....I HATE the safeties on these & don't much care for the way the trigger & bolt are setup.

If your budget only allows a NEF single shot or a Rem 710 or Mossberg Bolt gun, I'd say get the NEF.
I'd NEVER trade one of my NEF's for a Piece-O'-Trash Rem 710 or JUNK-berg.

beckerhead · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2005, 06:47:28 AM »

I'm a fan of Savage and H&R, not to mention others. I do love my ultra because it is such a sleeper to most "gun" guys. I smile while they scratch their heads and re-measure my groups. But, my 110 tactical is an unbelievable machine as well. My H&R +'s are, it is short, quick, points good, and will shoot 1" groups with just about anything. H&R -'s are it is kinda heat sensitive, quite gun rest sensitive, and requires at least 2 foulers to start tack driving. My 110 +'s are, it is way more accurate than I am, I can shoot a box of shells relatively quickly with no heat related walking, I can shoot off a bipod, bags, or fence post with no POI changes, and it is first shot to last shot consistent without foulers. 110's -'s are it is HEAVY over 10 lbs., eats my shoulder even with a butler creek stretchy sling, and is 45" long and loves to visit with briars and vines all the time. So they both have good points and bad, its really a best tool for the job thing, I mean hammers are for hitting things and screwdrivers for opening paint cans right?

jeff223 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2005, 08:06:45 AM »

my son got a deal on a 30-06 Remington 710 from a coe worker and this rifle shoots under an inch at 100yds with factory ammo.thats not bad for a JUNK rifle

if Remington changed out their plastic trigger and put a steel trigger on this rifle they would really have something

i like any rifle that shoots good :wink: handi rifles,rem710s or what ever,if they shoot good with good accuracy they are good rifles

knight0334 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2005, 09:21:27 AM »

I'm a fan of all guns. ...but tend to favorite singleshots and "cowboy" style stuff. Of my first 4 guns I ever had, 3 were NEF singleshot shotguns (12ga, 20ga, 410bore). ...best darn $250 I ever spent on 3 guns. ...wasted more on a single gun that I never cared for.

My budget is my main reason now. After having two "ex's" run me so far into the ground, only things I can afford are budget stuff. But to top things off, NEF/H&R at least give great performance from the very little money invested. I think these single shots are worth more then what they sell for in terms of performance vs. price.

And as long as NEF keeps making this good for these prices, I'll continue to buy from them.

jmckinley · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2005, 09:37:13 AM »

Jeff223,
First and foremost I don't think the 710 is junk the ATR yes not the 710 or Savage. In fact the 710 would be my choice for a hunting 06 for elk. I teach and do not have $ 1000 dollars to spend on a rifle. The handi, 710 or 110 will all do the job period I like the handi's but the 710 is on my list for my primary elk rifle. I like the way the 710 handles better than the 110's ect.
Jmckinley

Norseman112 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2005, 10:24:38 AM »

I am fan of all rifles and I have lots of bolt action rifles. I really like them all. Even the junky mossberg atr my son has. I won't tell him its junk cause he is happy with it and it shoots great( yep sub moa right out of the box) :eek: . I also feel the atr will last him a long time and I have not heard any bad reports on them. Sure they may look less expensive, but it works fine. I have mossberg model 500 shotguns and one is from when I was 14 years old. I have taken many deer, pheasants,grouse,ducks,geese and done lots of trap shooting with that shotgun. So I don't think everything they make is junk. I also never had to send any of them back to the factory for repairs. I have less expensive rifles to custom made and I like everyone of them. Granted there are better quality rifles than others and some that don't hold up and deserve the name junk. If I find the rifle won't hold up and it shoots poorly only then will I call it junk. I like my handi rifles very much and will continue to use them with joy; as I will the rest of my guns (even the so called junk ones).

Norse

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2005, 10:32:06 AM »

How's that old saying go....one man's junk is another man's treasure....or something like that!!! :wink:

Tim

jmckinley · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2005, 11:05:30 AM »

Quote from: Norseman112

I am fan of all rifles and I have lots of bolt action rifles. I really like them all. Even the junky mossberg atr my son has. I won't tell him its junk cause he is happy with it and it shoots great( yep sub moa right out of the box) :eek: . I also feel the atr will last him a long time and I have not heard any bad reports on them. Sure they may look less expensive, but it works fine. I have mossberg model 500 shotguns and one is from when I was 14 years old. I have taken many deer, pheasants,grouse,ducks,geese and done lots of trap shooting with that shotgun. So I don't think everything they make is junk. I also never had to send any of them back to the factory for repairs. I have less expensive rifles to custom made and I like everyone of them. Granted there are better quality rifles than others and some that don't hold up and deserve the name junk. If I find the rifle won't hold up and it shoots poorly only then will I call it junk. I like my handi rifles very much and will continue to use them with joy; as I will the rest of my guns (even the so called junk ones).

Norse

I've used Mossberg shotguns for over 40 years and it's still the gun I hunt with 835's and 500's too. The ATR just felt cheap to me but I've read they shoot MOA or better. I guess it may be ugly and junky looking but will shoot with the best. Still looks like a pc of plastic to me. Jmckinley

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2005, 11:09:48 AM »

Hmm, I love my 835 and my huntin partner loves his 500....other than the loose forend issue which I can deal with, what's not to like about em?? Price is right and they shoot great!!!

Tim

Norseman112 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2005, 11:40:09 AM »

Jmckinley,

Like I said before, the atr looks less expensive. I know it won't win any beauty contests, but I assure you the action is ok, otherwise I would not let my son use it. Lots of manufactures use plastic thease days. I may not think its ugly and another person may think it is and thats ok. As with girls, trucks, cars and guitars beauty is always in the eyes of the beholder. I also have an 835 turkey gun and love it. Glad to see you like the 500 and 835.

Norse

Varminter · « **Reply #16 on:** July 20, 2005, 11:47:01 AM »

I have to agree the ATR isn't the prettiest gun i have seen but i have heard it will get the job done with most shooting under MOA. I have a mossberg 500 and love it. Probably one of the most durable guns i own besides my handis. i turkey hunt with it every year. As Quick said the forearm is the only drawback.

jmckinley · « **Reply #17 on:** July 20, 2005, 12:06:00 PM »

Quote from: Norseman112

Jmckinley,

Like I said before, the atr looks less expensive. I know it won't win any beauty contests, but I assure you the action is ok, otherwise I would not let my son use it. Lots of manufactures use plastic thease days. I may not think its ugly and another person may think it is and thats ok. As with girls, trucks, cars and guitars beauty is always in the eyes of the beholder. I also have an 835 turkey gun and love it. Glad to see you like the 500 and 835.

Norse

Norse after what I've read about the ATR your opinion is the dominate one. I picked one up at WallyWorld with a stuck safety and a bolt that would not operate properly, maybe just abused but sure made me think twice. Hope your son has good luck this season. i've tried every pump shotgun on the planet and the one that fits me is the chair leg Mossy. I'm 6'5'' 220 and many are just pint size to me. Will always use the 500 and 835 as long as I can make it to the field. Jess :-D

poncaguy · « **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2005, 02:02:06 PM »

I have 7 or 8 Handi's, love 'em all. Also have 2 Stevens 200's. 7mm-08 and 25-06, love them too. They cost me $260, and for a bolt action, I.m very pleased with them. I like my Handi's beacause they're Handy, short and accurate.

McLernon · « **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2005, 02:14:31 PM »

I just returned from the range where I shot my .223 Handi and a CZ527 .221 Fireball. The Fireball cost me $800.00 CDN and the Handi cost me $279.00 CDN. I'm sure you can buy a bolt action for less that $800.00 CDN but I doubt you can get one for anything like $279.00CDN.

I tried out my new three-legged rest (from Cabelas) with my Handi and used WWB 45gr's. I barely was able to hold 1-1/2 inches max at 100 yds. while using as much 'skill and daring' as I could muster today. The CZ on the other hand I shot from a Harris bipod and had no trouble getting 0.5MOA while in the process of load development.

I think that's the difference between a reasonably good bolt gun and a Handi. The Handi is just more difficult to master for several reasons that have been discussed in this forum. I know from experience that the Handi will shoot subMOA when I do my part, but it definitely is more difficult to handle. My CZ, with a set trigger, on the other hand can be fired 'free' and therefore is relatively easy to master.

Does this mean that the Handi is inferior? By no means!! It is a different and interesting rifle to shoot and it is very accurate. A tack driver no, but accurate enough for what I want and for $279.00CDN it is terrific. Candidly, I won't be using it for groundhogs at 200+yards. It will be my trusted 150 yard coyote rifle next winter using the reliable WWB 45gr.s

I'm glad I bought my Handi and I would recommend it to others who want the fun and challenge that the Handi rifle offers.

McL

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2005, 04:25:05 PM »

McLernon how do you like that 527 CZ? I've been lusting over one at my local gun dealers. He wants $419 plus tax for the 204 Varmiter with the walnut stock. I don't know anyone with one to find out if they're really worth the money. Digger

dukkillr · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2005, 04:32:30 PM »

glock29 wrote:

Quote

I however have NEVER seen ANY product from Mossberg that I have liked one bit & quite frankly I'd be ashamed to own quite a few of the new Mossbergs I have examined.

If you can afford a QUALITY Bolt Action (Classic/CRF Winchester 70, CZ550, Sako, Weatherby MkV or Vanguard, Savage 110, Ruger 77 MKII, Mauser variant, etc) I'd opt for the bolt action. Notice I purposely left out the Rem 700....I HATE the safeties on these & don't much care for the way the trigger & bolt are setup.

Agreed.

I believe there should be a distinction between guns that work, and guns I own that someday I'll be proud to pass on to my kids. Accuracy isn't the only factor I use to judge a gun. A bic lighter will start a fire just like a zippo but there's a reason you opt for the quality piece of equipment.

McLernon · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2005, 04:47:52 PM »

Hello Ditchdigger:

I'm just rapping up my load development work with my .221 Fireball CZ527 American and it's really growing on me. I especially like the single set trigger. I put a 12X Leupold on it so it'll be good for groundhogs out to 200 yards. At 200yards it should be going 2000 fps or more so it should blow them up pretty well. With 40 gr. Nosler Bal Tips and 18.2 gr. of RL7 it shoots tiny clover leafs at 100 yards. Very happy with this though it's not a hot load.

I'm a little disappointed with some of the checkering but the stock is well finished and is a pretty piece of wood. The metal work is very good but the bluing is 'thin'. All in all it is well worth $800.00 CDN.

I have another CZ 527 LUX model in .223 made in Czechoslovakia with a beech wood stock, no set trigger. It's a shooter too (subMOA).

I don't know much about the .204 Ruger but it should be fun to shoot.

If you have any specific questions don't hesitate to PM me.

McL

FirstFreedom · « **Reply #23 on:** July 21, 2005, 04:18:42 AM »

There are reports of 710s failing at the locking lugs and the bolt blowing back and crushing the shooter's eye socket causing serious injury. Could just be errornet rumor, but what if it's true? I'd own a 100ATR before a 710. And you're getting waaaaay more rifle from a 10/110 Savage - please reconsider that choice. And I like my 500 shotgun and my OLD Mossy .22 rifle.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 21, 2005, 05:27:17 AM »

I'll take my Handi's over any of the cheap Savages Mosseberges or Remingtons any day of the week...and while all 3 of those companies makes some pretty respectable long-guns...I really don't care for their cheapest line...I fix up rifles I like to begin with...and even in it's factory original stock...the Ultra-Rifle to me is a much better looking rifle...it carrys and balences better...the more I own and shoot...the more I like it...and while just browsing thru a gun store...I always check for single shots first...before looking thru the bolt guns...

Mac

aulrich · « **Reply #25 on:** July 21, 2005, 08:39:29 AM »

I think there are slightly different reasons for getting a handi or a cheap bolt gun. A break open (tc or handi) is really great for having one gun multiple calibers, or for at least trying out different calibers. Where as a cheap bolt gun (at least the savage action) are for the guys who want to tinker in smithing or build up a custom rig.

Both camps have guys that just want to shoot somthing inexpensive (not cheap), then there are guys like Quick :wink:, who like to experiment.

MGMorden · « **Reply #26 on:** July 21, 2005, 04:59:30 PM »

Though I do own a Handi (.223), I'll admit that I'm a bit more partial to bolt guns. I don't really own any expensive ones so it's not a price thing, and it's not really an issue of single shot vs repeater (while hunting I generally only load 2 rounds, and I've never actually used that 2nd round). I think I just prefer the feel of the bolt gun more while hunting. Though it won't be my main field gun, I'm seriously considering taking out the Lee Enfield with iron sights some this year

. 25 more days until season opening.

Of course, a Handi does get the job done too. I generally only shoot mine at the range, but it's accurate and if it was in a more approriate chambering I wouldn't hesitate to take it hunting. For those on a budget they make wonderful guns (and for those on an even tighter budget a 12ga Pardner will do a heck of a lot for under $100). I think it just boils down to personal choice.

Of course, I think that H&R is doing a great thing for the shooting community. They are producing quality rifles at a price point that a non-shooter would actually pay to "try-out". Whether they stick with Handi's or go to more expensive stuff later isn't all that important, but if the lower price lures them into the shooting hobby, then it's a wonderful thing

.

stiff neck · « **Reply #27 on:** July 21, 2005, 08:37:14 PM »

Quote

I tried out my new three-legged rest (from Cabelas) with my Handi and used WWB 45gr's. I barely was able to hold 1-1/2 inches max at 100 yds. while using as much 'skill and daring' as I could muster today. The CZ on the other hand I shot from a Harris bipod and had no trouble getting 0.5MOA while in the process of load development.

That's just plain silly. You only tried ONE type of ammo, yet you've labeled the Handi as being inaccurate. I bet you can find another brand of ammo that has the exact OPPOSITE effect on the rifles - accurate in the Handi but sucky in the CZ. You can't try just one type of ammo and make those types of statements.

Rifles are ammo sensative. What works in one barrel won't necessarily work well in another. One rifle might love WWB 45's and another might hate it.

My NEF Ultra shoots WWB 45's about the same as yours, 1.25"-1.5". But it LOVES Ultramax and Black Hills ammo and shoots them about 0.5". Yours might too.

tallyho · « **Reply #28 on:** July 21, 2005, 09:56:40 PM »

Mac said

Quote

...and while just browsing thru a gun store...I always check for single shots first...before looking thru the bolt guns...

Me too... then lever guns, double barrel shotguns, single action and double action revolvers, then other stuff including bolt guns...

Cheers
Kerry

p.s. Jmckinley - I'm in ABQ too. PM me if you would like to connect.[/quote]

Mac11700 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 22, 2005, 04:21:58 AM »

Quote

Rifles are ammo sensative. What works in one barrel won't necessarily work well in another. One rifle might love WWB 45's and another might hate it.

Boy....I sure can agree with that statement...every Handi I have ever owned has been that way...there has always been at least 1 factory load that has been a great shooter... ...but many loads that I have tried have been so-so...to down right lousy...Me thinks this is the cause for so many people saying the Handi's are innaccurate...that if it doesn't shoot a favorite brand and weight of bullet...they think it's a P.O.J....I guess folks don't want to spend the money to find out...they probably think..." Well I spent $20 on that box of ammo...if it won't shoot that it probably won't shoot anything else..."...and then let it go...and when they do that...they are missing out...

Mac