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Offline 870 expressmag

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skeptical at first..but first range visit with new 308 good
« on: July 21, 2005, 03:43:41 PM »
well quickdtoo i am all done asking questions and not being able to use the advice..i got the rifles back today.....first range visit was this afternoon..it was quick as i got done just before it started raining...

at first i was skeptical..all the reading and stuff i do on here i immediatelly checked all this stuff on my new barrel (.308 since that was the last one that had the scope mounted at the shop it was still on so i used it first)  it wiggles a little when the breech is open...however it locks pretty tight....when i push the release it flops right open..kinda loose....and it was dirty....so i began to get nervous...remember i am a nervous person....well i cleaned her up as best i could and headed to the range....with a leupold 2-7x33 vx-1 on it and in my lead sled...i set the target at 50 yds since my scope has only ben bore sighted...didn;t even hit the target anywhere and the case stuck...then onsets worry...took my rod and knocked it out..then commenced to cleaning....then shot my second round...after adjusting the scope still nothing..this shell did not stick...commenced to cleaning again....moved the target to 30 yds and finally after some fiddling i hit the paper and went from there..thats why you see the random holes in the target picture....also after the first 5 shots the release was almost impossible to push in to open the breech..why is that?  anyways i had one more stuck casing so when i was cleaning after that round i put like 5 patches on my jag and put em in the chamber and did kind of a half-a$$ chamber polish...seemed to work..not a stuck one after that...and the more i shot it seems as though the release has loosened as well and everything seems really smooth..so far....so i finally got one shot to hit just south of bullseye...so i quickly shot two more and you can see the 3 shot group below.....now it was only at 30yds.....but i ran out of time...but in my opinion it seems like it sheds light on good accuracy to come...am i far off with that???

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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2005, 04:06:21 PM »
It looks encouraging!! What ammo are you shooting? Did you do the chamber polish AND make sure the chamber was clean and dry?? I use a bore mop with a patch wrapped around it on the end of a chamber cleaing rod.  You can tighten the action so when it's open it isn't loose and it will not flop open quite so easy, by placing a shim between the forend (wood stock only) and spacer after removing the 2 screws in the forend spacer. .004" to .006" should be plenty.

Tim
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Offline Varminter

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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2005, 04:50:39 PM »
Well it looks like you got a pretty good barrel. Just remember to polish the bore like quick said and make sure there is no lubricants in the chamber and the it is dry. All i can really recommend is that you try every kind of ammo you can get your hands on. Except the military stuff.

Be sure to give us a report on that 270 UC. :wink:
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Offline 870 expressmag

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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2005, 03:36:39 AM »
on that target i shot that using remington core-lokt 180gr soft points....i did not polish the bore or the chamber..alls i did in the chamber was take a bunch of patches and shoved em in there tight and spun them with the cleaning jag until it was nice and clean....havn't had a FTE yet.....the bore i am breaking in the old fashioned way..shoot once and clean...seems to be working good..am getting good results....quickdtoo about the shim....two questions....i havn't had the 223 or 270 back on it yet..what if they are not sloppy..then will the shim make them barrels overtight?  and 2 where do i get a shim or what do i make it out of?
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2005, 04:38:16 AM »
Quote
didn;t even hit the target anywhere and the case stuck...then onsets worry...took my rod and knocked it out


You had one FTE, but it was probably due to oil in the chamber if you only had one at the first shot..... case stuck = FTE.

The only way to know if the forend is too tight is to try it, if it's too tight on the other barrels, remove the shim.

The shim material I use is aluminum furnace tape from a hardware store, it's used to seal ducting. It measures .006" with the backing and .004" without, cut a piece and trim it to the shape of the spacer, punch a couple holes for the screws and install it.

Tim
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Offline 870 expressmag

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« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2005, 07:37:04 AM »
i'm sorry if you misunderstood me..there was no FTE after i did that with the patches in the chamber.......

how come when it first started out after each shot i could hardly get the button pushed down to break open the action..but it eventually loosened up...is that because maybe the latch had a burr on it that wore off?


i also failed to mention they were pointed..not round nose  http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=614008
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2005, 09:15:23 AM »
That's kinda what I thought about the FTE. :wink:

The latch shelf on the barrel where the latch locks up was probably not finished well and as you suspect, probably had a bit of a burr on it. I stone the shelf so it's smooth from the beginning to allow the best lockup.

Tim
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Offline 870 expressmag

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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2005, 11:21:06 AM »
a family friend who is the retired police chief in town gave me some 308 ammo that was left over at the dept  :grin:   they look sorta old but the one box is western super x powerpoints..150gr soft pts and the other box is federal 168gr sierra boat tail hp match....we'll see how these do...will report back
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Offline 870 expressmag

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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2005, 04:00:33 PM »
dad and i went out to the range tonight..we took his 17hmr and my 308...well his 17hmr at 100yds shoots at 3/4"!  

i finished off shooting my remington corelokt 180gr soft pointed tips and they shot two 3 shot groups under 1 inch at 100yds....and they made nice circular holes.....i ran out of those so i had a box of federal vital shok 165gr sierra gameking BTSP and started shooting those...i couldn;t get em to group near as tight as the remingtons and i even think i didn;t go under 3inch groups.....now the barrel was getting a little warmer but not any worse i don;t think than with the remingtons.....must be my gun doesn;t like these??  i am going to try the rest of them with a clean cold barrel and see how they do then..but i noticed something...every hole was not nice and round like the remingtons..they were almost keyholed....like the bullet is wobbling a little?  but if thats the case how does it consistantly wobble out of the bottom every shot..the keyhole always goes to the bottom....i don;t think it's the gun otherwise the remingtons would've done it.....i am thinking my baby doesn;t like these bullets...any thoughts?
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Offline 870 expressmag

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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2005, 04:27:14 PM »
no one has any thoughts for me??   :cry:
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Offline myarmor

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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2005, 05:06:31 AM »
Sounds like it doesn't like them at all.  Some here have good luck with the Remington ammo in their handis. Strangely enough my 223 Ultra likes the cheap UMC's better than the Core-Lokt's :? . But as for key holing....To me it doesn't sound logical. Those Remi's where 180gr being the heavier, and the Fed's being 165gr. Almost every instance I have heard of key holing comes from a heavier bullet with insufficient spin to stabilize it-thus the rate of twist. How old where these Federals? Next time you go out I would try out a box of Federal Match Gold and Federal Fusions-seeing as how our friend Mac has been doing well with them.
You 308 sounds promising, I am curious to see how she does when you stretch her legs some more.  But I totally understand though, my shooting has been slow as well, due to all the rain that has come through..
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Offline 870 expressmag

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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2005, 06:35:37 AM »
the federals were bought off of the shelf at the exact same time as the remingtons.....i have a few left i will try them in a clean cold barrel and see how they do...i guess if they don't like em thats fine with me they are more expensive...i got another box of the 180gr remi's to see if they stay consistant...and i also have a box of fusions in 150gr i am itching to try...will keep you posted....havn't even touched the 270 yet...one thing at time  :wink:
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2005, 08:08:59 AM »
Quote
i couldn;t get em to group near as tight as the remingtons and i even think i didn;t go under 3inch groups.....now the barrel was getting a little warmer but not any worse i don;t think than with the remingtons.....must be my gun doesn;t like these?


Just because you don't get as good a groups...or the bullet holes in the paper aren't perfect...doen't mean a-lot when shooting at 100 yards...sometimes it takes a farther yardarge for the bullet to completely stabilize....now...if the paper is torn say 1/2" -3/4" around each hole...different story....Finding the right ammo to give you the best isn't always easy...I know...sometimes it falls in your lap...othertimes you'll just have to keep looking...or take up reloading if you keep a paticular gun. You can also try some of the lighter bullets with the 308...pick up a box of Winchester Power Points in 150 grains and see how they do as well...they are realatively cheap over at Wal-mart


Mac
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Offline 870 expressmag

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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2005, 10:18:44 AM »
ok will do..i also have some 150gr fusions i want to try also
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2005, 08:28:09 PM »
If you have as much luck with the 308 Fusion as I have had with the 30-06...I'm sure your you will search no-more...

Mac
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Offline 870 expressmag

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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2005, 12:33:11 AM »
i am hoping so....i worked 65 hours last week and 55 this week...with that and the heat..it's hard to get to the range...will keep you posted on my ammo results
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Offline 870 expressmag

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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2005, 01:36:32 PM »
i am totally disgusted with this thing....went to the range today...shot 180gr remington corelokt point sp and they shot bad...federal 165 gr sierra gamekings..shot bad...and fusion 150gr shot bad....nothing under 2"..sometimes at 50yds!  this is with the .308....i shimmed it with aluminum tape because it wobbled a little when the breech is open..it fixed it...but it still shoots bad...so i wanted to see what the 270UC would do...it is tight all the way around no need for shim...initially it shot great...but it still doesn;t shoot well....averaging 3-4 inch groups....the 270 did shoot one group of 3 at 50yds which was a 7/8" group...thats the most excitement i had all day.....the guy i was shooting with just can;t figure it out and i can;t either...only thing that might be is i am using a caldwell lead sled and it supports the foreend....right as we were about to leave we tried just two sandbags..one under the hinge the other under the stock...didn;t really group it but it seemed to shoot better than before......i am really disappointed..what can i do to make these shoot?  by the way i was shooting federal blue box 270's in 130 gr pointed sp and 150gr round sp..
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2005, 01:48:45 PM »
Everything that you need to know is posted here, start with the cleaning and lapping sticky at the top of this forum list. The bore will take 150-200 rounds to settle down if you don't lap the bore first, 50-100 rounds if you do lap it. Shooting when the barrel is hot or the weather is hot doesn't help, you need to take your time and shoot with the barrel as cool as possible. Be patient and give it time, it will work out. The front rest needs to be under the hinge, that has been stated a million times here, it's pretty much true for any break barrel rifle, some aren't too picky, most are.

Hang in there, :wink:

Tim
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Offline Varminter

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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2005, 02:23:39 PM »
My 270 barrel liked the winchester silver box 130 gr. SP. Shot around an inch at 100 yards. Just hang in there they will eventually shoot better. Make sure you lap the bore!!!! That is extremely important.  The weather probably played a big role in how your gun shot today.
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Offline EVOC ONE

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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2005, 02:57:10 PM »
You commented yesterday that you have been working a lot of hours and are a bit tired, then you shot today.  Being fatigued and not on your game will affect your concentration.  Were you mentally prepared when you went to the range? In your frustration to get consistant success from the rifle, you may be forcing the issue.  Could you be holding the rifle too tightly? Is your rest consistant?  Are you following through on your trigger squeeze?

You may need to take a breather for a couple days, re-group and get back to basics with your shooting style.

Also, don't forget that sometimes our timing is off and nothing goes right.

Hang in there and keep everyone posted.  There is enough help here to get you through this.  

EVOC ONE
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Offline ONE HOLE 4570

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« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2005, 04:55:20 PM »
I'm with Evac One some days you are just too tired & don't know it or concentrat too hard & have a bad day, others you just go & plink & it all falls into place. Relax & try again A BAD DAY OF SHOOTING IS BETTER THAN A GOOD DAY AT WORK!! :-D  :-D  :-D
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2005, 08:31:31 PM »
Quote from: 870 expressmag
i am totally disgusted with this thing....went to the range today...shot 180gr remington corelokt point sp and they shot bad...federal 165 gr sierra gamekings..shot bad...and fusion 150gr shot bad....nothing under 2"..sometimes at 50yds!  this is with the .308....i shimmed it with aluminum tape because it wobbled a little when the breech is open..it fixed it...but it still shoots bad...so i wanted to see what the 270UC would do...it is tight all the way around no need for shim...initially it shot great...but it still doesn;t shoot well....averaging 3-4 inch groups....the 270 did shoot one group of 3 at 50yds which was a 7/8" group...thats the most excitement i had all day.....the guy i was shooting with just can;t figure it out and i can;t either...only thing that might be is i am using a caldwell lead sled and it supports the foreend....right as we were about to leave we tried just two sandbags..one under the hinge the other under the stock...didn;t really group it but it seemed to shoot better than before......i am really disappointed..what can i do to make these shoot? by the way i was shooting federal blue box 270's in 130 gr pointed sp and 150gr round sp..

 
First off...quite blaming the rifle or the ammo...if you don't know it's what's causing your problems.
 
Second... try following the advice that has already been given to you in this thread...and what has been posted on on this forum.Start using the search feature and see what has been said about Where to rest your Handi Rifle ...the lead sled isn't condusive for shooting under the hinge pin ...and if you don't know how to shoot off sand bags properly...then you will never get the type accuracy others have...these rifles have a unique way of being shot ...and you have to learn how to do it...and shooting them like you would  a bolt action...really isn't the best way.These rifles are more prone to vibration changes than most other rifles...so...if your barrel is heating up because your shooting too fast....or.....because your frustrated or tired..... and if you haven't followed all of the recomendations that have been put forth..to cleaning,polishing,floating the barrel,ect,ect,ect,. then...don't expect good accuracy.  

Start fresh...follow the directions for polishing the bore and chamber...floating the barrel...read up on how to use sandbags properly and learn to use them...not the lead sled...and get plenty of rest.and eat properly before you go shooting.....then try again...till then...quite blaming the gun and ammo...it's probably not the reason for your problems.Try sticking with 1 brand of ammo when learning how to shoot these rifles...if your still having problems...then you won't have to worry about 3 or 4 kinds of ammo causing part of it...you eliminate the variables till you find the reason...start with you...first...then your rifle...

Mac
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Offline 870 expressmag

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« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2005, 03:11:34 AM »
wow...i didn't mean to come off the way i think you guys thought i did...didn't mean to get everyone so excited.....i was plenty rested and it was finally cooler yesterday....i am nervous about polishing the bore..don't know why just don;t have the confidence in myself to do it....i can shoot off sandbags properly...just need to get some...i guess i will have to reserve the lead sled for bolts and muzzleloaders and shotguns..i used my buddies sandbags but i need to get some for my self...i am not blaming the ammo or the gun..i guess i am just frustrated...i apologize.....i do appreciate the helpful hints and info though.....please don't take it as i am ignoring what i am told and still complaining...i do as much as i feel comfortable within my limits...i did shim the 308 with furnace tape and it worked great....the 270 didn't need it....again i apologize  :oops:  for starting something and thanks for all the great advice


please don't give up on me guys!
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Offline EVOC ONE

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« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2005, 04:01:02 AM »
I'm on track with you.  Not offended.  Just feeling your "pain" and frustration.  Just thought I may offer a few suggestions that I have had to consider from time to time myself.

But again.  Keep asking questions.  Don't clam up.    

Hang in there.

EVOC ONE
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Offline myarmor

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« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2005, 05:52:03 AM »
:) Easy to get frustrated with them sometimes. I can attest, especially if you haven't shot these kind of Handi rifles a lot. When I first got my 223, I got so mad, nothing was working. I found this place, and calmed down. I started to learn how to shoot them and now I am well pleased with my rifles. When my shots are thrown off, it's because of me. I have seen the potential of my rifles, and am actively learning how to be consistent in the manner of which to shoot them. They can shoot. And from the sound  of your past expireance, so can you. Take your time and enjoy your new toys. Read some past topics from members here that got frustrated, and what helped them. The more you shoot the more you learn. No matter how old you are, and no matter how long you have been shooting.
 I'll keep you up to speed on the new rifle rest I ordered when I get it. I am hoping this will help improve my shooting as well. :toast:
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2005, 06:01:34 AM »
Same Here:

Asking questions and then following the advice given is the most appropriate way of doing things. Some folks..won't take that advice and put it to good use...it's sooo much easier to blame the gun...than anything else...when things don't go as expected.This happens a-lot here...some who have never shot one of these rifles...see some of the good groups that have been posted and they think because others got good results with 1 brand of ammo...or 1 different handload...they should get the same...and this isn't the case with these rifles...that's one of the reasons it's a Love/Hate relationship with them...I've tried a bunch of different loads that have given spectacular groups from a members rifles...only to be bitterly disappointed at the results when shot from mine...The main thing to remember is...no 2 rifles will shoot the same all the time...there are just too many variables in play here.

Polishing the bore and chamber... is a straight forward procedure.If you can clean a rifle barrel...then you can do this simple task...and if you follow the normal-safe cleaning steps...you shouldn't have any problems...so stop worrying so much and just go and do it...if your still unsure...look to the sticky at the top of the forum and go over how it's done...Adding a o-ring to the forearm will tell you a-lot by firing the same ammo...what you should be trying to do when first starting out is to get consistant groups...and then improve on that...getting benchrest size groups  doesn't happen often...most the time you have to have everything perfect...and do everything perfectly.. and expecting great groups..without having the proper set up at the range...or having the proper shooter technique...is a lesson in futility...Some of us here have spent eons honing our shooting skillls....going to the range to just burn ammo isn't a good learning situation...nor is using a bunch of different ammo on the same range trip...unless you are cleaning your barrel between the different  types completely...it doesn't do either you...the rifle...nor the ammo justice when looking for respectable group size.

Getting good groups one day...only to turn around the very next and get lousy groups...is down right agravating...I have done this on numerous occasions.When this happens...you have a choice...continue wasting ammo...or stop and figure out what has changed...this is where you get to use your deductive reasoning powers...or...at least you should...A simple way of doing this is keeping a journal...or log book...chart the time...all the weather conditions...how rested you were..what the condition of the rifle was...clean or dirty...also ... the lot numbers of factory ammo you were using...most of this is just common sense things...but can aid you in figuring out accuracy problems.....So...where do you go from here???..It's time to go over your rifle...clean and polish it...check all your screws on your mounts and rings..float the barrel up so it doesn't make contact with the forearm...get one of the better rests or sand bags so you can shoot it resting on the receiver/hingpin area...and try again...take your time when shooting...don't rush...learn where your trigger breaks...and continue pulling all the way thru...this is a accuracy killer...if you don't...and check the pull weight of it..if it is real hard and gritty...clean it and polish it...if you can't or son't want to figure it out...get it to a qualified gunsmith and let him... ...add some weight to the stock and get a soft cheek piece for the stock...by doing these things...it will make shooting off the bench easier...and won't tire you out as fast...physically and mentally...

Good Luck

Mac
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2005, 03:41:37 AM »
You're Welcome :?:

Mac
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Offline 870 expressmag

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« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2005, 05:34:47 AM »
thanks guys i am going to break down and try the bore polishing  probably take me forever since i am always nervous about screwing stuff up :shock:
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