Author Topic: Next Bigbore rifle (Read 2647 times)

Old Moss · « **on:** July 24, 2005, 09:15:33 AM »

Morn'in Gents I would like some good feedback and advise on my next Big Bore. This question may have been brought up a thousand times but here it is once again. The background:

1. Owned a winchester stainless 70 375H&H, poor accuracy 3" at 100yds, short box magazine, glassbedded stock, 3lb trigger, factory and hand loads, I love winchesters but it was a lemon.
2. Live in alaska hunt and fish for everything
3. Primary use all around carry rifle
4. Stopping rifle - back-up for friends taking bear
5. Also to take that 200yard shot should a blackie make it's self available on the side of a hill. (375H&H seems the choice) Moose too.
6. Like the idea of stainless but they are hard to find up here.
7. I'm looking for a Ruger #1 Tropical in 375H&H stainless steel been waiting 6 weeks no luck on orders The #1 is a single shot yes but it shoulders so fast and feels so good. no short magazine length to worry about accurate I have heard. I can get a second shot off accurately in 3 sec
8. CZ 550 - Yes sir - except for three concerns - a.) When cycling the bolt for a quick second shot I found -- if I did not move my head & face out of the way the bolt smacked my nose. b.) Blued no stainless c.) The
bolt handle was small and did not feel good in the hand for fast cycling
9. Marlins in 45-70, maybe - make your argument,
10. I plan on open/ghostring sights, maybe a reddot, no scopes. They are an added expense and one other thing on a work rifle that could go wrong this is a work rifle.
11. OK Sourdoughs, I agree a 12g pump is the best care security in Alaska - already have it, and care it the most; just looking for a new rifle (can't help myself)
12. If I got a blued gun -- what added finish is recommended. I'm a fan of Rust Oleum spray paint. Has worked before and is cheap!!!
13. Remember this is not the primary hunting rifle, My 30-06, 300WM and 338WM all do that fine, This is for that back-up when things go bad (Rare and infrequent despite what people think about Alaska, but it does happen), but also for that spur of the moment chance at a medium range shot on moose bear sheep.

Remember that nothing is perfect -- What say you all -- best bigbore Alaskan rifle :shock: :?

Thanks Old Moss

Ramrod · « **Reply #1 on:** July 24, 2005, 09:25:25 AM »

Well, I have never been to Alaska, but I do know that the .45-70 and .450 Marlin, good as they are for close range, can't touch the .375 H&H, when distances get long. And look up a product called Dura-Coat for a weatherproof coating that can be applied at home.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 24, 2005, 10:05:03 AM »

My all around gun would ne a 375H&H.

Lawdog · « **Reply #3 on:** July 24, 2005, 11:16:34 AM »

Stick with the .375 H&H unless you want a bit more power then the .375 Weatherby really shines. And stick with a good bolt action(another Winchester or a Ruger). During practice you may be able to reload a No. 1 in 3 seconds but try it under stress. You would be surprised at how many times you end up dropping the next cartridge. I have tried this many times with one of my No. 1's and have ended up picking up cartridges off the ground. Just for curiosity sake(and I'm not trying to be funny or cute) but do you have any idea how much ground a bear can cover in three seconds should you miss or not stop the bear with that first shot? My in-laws live in Alaska and until the day he died my father in-law wouldnt go outside without his .348 M71. My two brother in-laws routinely carry a .358 Norma or a .375 H&H. Lawdog

Old Moss · « **Reply #4 on:** July 24, 2005, 06:15:39 PM »

:-) Thanks for the in-put, So lets narrow it down a bit, 375 H&H or bigger, and I agree under stress I probable can't do it in three seconds. A black bear or grizz can cover 30yds in 3-sec. Some mat say that only leaves you time for one shot any how. Best of all is not to get yourself into that fix in the first place but that doesn't let us finish the challenge does it.

What are my options with fixing the CZ 550, does anyone make quality drop in stocks?

Does the Winchester Classic Safari 70 (Blued/walnut) have a longer magazine or action than the Stainless one has? I here nothing but good about the Winchester Classic Safari 70. A little gun shy after the last 70 stainless I purchased (yes pun intended). The Ruger is just to much out of my range, cost wise. I know there is no price on safety but I have to be realistic.

Keep the thread going I really appreciate any input. Thanks Old Moss

oso45-70 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 24, 2005, 08:05:23 PM »

Old Moss

Don't know if you would consider a lever gun or not, But for a utility rifle the Marlin GG is is hard to beat. As for the 375H&H in the Ruger #1 I have one and would not want to be the first thing a POed Griz seen after he was shot. On top of that the #1 is very awkward to me. If i can find some one that wants it, it will be a gonner. Now back to the Marlin Guide guns. I have two one SS and one Blue and i would feel comfortable with either one, Just a thought, Good luck........Joe.........

idahoelk101 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 25, 2005, 06:46:36 AM »

I know that you have a little bit of a sour taste from you previous model 70 375, but with your parameters it is the best fit by a bunch. I have had mine for a few years and accuracy has never been an issue. Now if I had some of the problems that you mention it would make me pretty peved as well.

msorenso · « **Reply #7 on:** July 25, 2005, 09:58:54 AM »

375 rem ultra mag for the most power!!!!

akpls · « **Reply #8 on:** July 26, 2005, 06:53:06 AM »

For a close in go-to gun, I'd have to agree with the Guide Gun with a .450 Marlin or hot 45-70 load. Plenty of power plus you can also be reloading the magazine while you still have one in the chamber ready to go. That's assuming you really have the time to do so!

while99 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 26, 2005, 04:17:12 PM »

If you want to stick with stainless synthetic, I'd take a chance on another Winchester Model 70 in .375 H&H. It also has the advantages of a controlled-feed action, something I find comforting if dangerous game is at hand. If the rifle doesn't shoot as a .375, have it re-bored or re-barreled as a .416 Remington Magnum. If you are not set on stainless synthetic, then buy one of the Model 70 Super Express rifles in .416.

warf73 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 26, 2005, 08:28:31 PM »

375H&H all the way.

Take a look.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=35213500

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976574915.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976276828.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976607806.htm

You didn't say price so these few might trip your trigger.

Warf

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 27, 2005, 08:00:49 PM »

I don't think you can go wrong with either a 45/70 guide gun or a Winchetser 70 classic in 375 H&H. I have both and can't think of better all around guns for alaskan hunting. THe 375 for a good all around and the Guide gun for backup and close range hunting 200 yards and in. I found accuracy to be sort of lacking in my Win Classic until I got a hogue over molded stock for it with full aluminum bedding block. It really tightend things up for me.

Stainless Guide gun,
Wild west lever loop, ghost ring and a leupold 2.5 scout scope in quick detach rings.

Winchester 70 classic,
Brockmans pop up peep and detachable rings 3-12 burris scope and hoge over molded stock.

Old Moss · « **Reply #12 on:** July 27, 2005, 08:05:52 PM »

Thanks Gents some very good points, So where am I at well took a good look at the Remington, not bad but the barrel was a little lite for my tastes. The Sako 75 is a possibility but the cost may well be out of my range :? The one I have not looked into yet is the Savage bolt 375H&H and one out there familiar with the Savage. The Marlins are a possiblity, just wondering about that occassional chance at a moose or sheep at 150+ yds. will it fit the bill. I know if there was a perfect do it all weapon then that would be it and we wouldn't get the fun of owning more than one gun

I'm beginning to think that the CZ 550 may work if I have a little work done and possibly a new finish, hmmm more to think about but isn't that half the fun? :grin: Thanks again Old Moss

tanoose · « **Reply #13 on:** July 29, 2005, 03:32:36 PM »

Hears one not mentioned that would do better at the longest distances even better then the 375's its the .338 Remington Ultra Magnum it has more down range velocity then the 375 H&H and the 375 RUM which givbes you more energy

akpls · « **Reply #14 on:** July 29, 2005, 04:29:16 PM »

Quote from: Old Moss

....The Marlins are a possiblity, just wondering about that occassional chance at a moose or sheep at 150+ yds. will it fit the bill....

I nailed a moose with the .450 Marlin at 248 yards (measured with laser rangefinder) and the factory Hornady 350. It broke a rib on the way in, destroyed the lungs, broke a rib on the far side and stopped under the hide. The GG can definitely do the job - as long as you do yours by knowing your loads trajectory.

crash87 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 30, 2005, 01:59:44 AM »

I have a 550, CZ. Bolt doesn't hit me but I agree on the bolt handle being to small. It is right now getting a 3-position, Win. type safety installed. When thats done the bolt handle will be replaced with something for a better grasp on the situation. Stock? going with the CZ american and a synthetic from someone. haven't decided yet. The rifle is a .416 Rigby. I'm only doing all of this because of the chambering, I like the rigby. If the chambering was .375 H&H I'd have a winchester M-70. As close to perfection in a production rifle right out of the box. Yours, I will tell you right now is an exception to the rule. Like anything you can always get a bad one.
Instead of looking for something else keep what you got and see if you can make it shoot. You tried some things, Have the barrel taken off, all faces trued & reinstalled. Had a 80's vintage push feed in .300 weatherby, did everything you did, still didn't shoot. tried that and I had a tack driver. Good Luck CRASH

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 31, 2005, 01:47:52 PM »

I just shot my Stainless M70 today with 260gr Accubonds and shot several 3/4-1 1/4" 3 shot groups, with most running right around an inch. I have found the factory winchester stock was too flimsy and was the major culprit for poor groups with this rifle. Before I changed the stock my groups averaged 1 3/4-2 1/2 with the same loads Something like the Hogue overmolded or accuracy inovations stock with a full aluminum bedding block signifigantly stiffens the stock and helps with accuracy. I think that winchester could signifigantly improve this rifle with a better stock.

jrhen · « **Reply #17 on:** July 31, 2005, 03:49:01 PM »

I own a CZ 550 Safari Mag in 357 H&H, I had reservation about the Hogback stock, but after a couple of hundred rounds I would swear by it. I feed it a steady diet of Sierra 250 Gr Game Kings over 71 grains of IMR 4895. If you like open sights the express sights come to eye quickly. I used the CZ scope mounts and placed a leopold 3x9 on it. I know that isn't the traditional scope for this rifle but my older eyes like it. It comes with a single stage set trigger, after trying it I don't suggest it. I have seen other posts about the stock cracking behind the action I have not had this challenge. You will need to polish the inside of the mag well or the last round will not feed. I know the barrel isn't stainless but that has been overcome for years. You can spend more if you want, its your choice.

Lee S. Forsberg · « **Reply #18 on:** August 13, 2005, 08:27:55 PM »

How about a 71 Winchester rebarreled to 50 Ak or 450 AK. Maybe to much Wildcat? Or maybe just a plain 870 Rem pump with slugs and 00 buck.

Old Moss · « **Reply #19 on:** August 22, 2005, 03:26:45 PM »

Hay all, well Here iswhat came about after several days of looking for my next big bore. Winchester came out about 1-11/2 yrs ago with an improved Win 70 with the box magazine and action opened up to take the 375H&H, But here in Anchorage only one shop had a New Win 70 available. They required 50% down to put into layaway. Their loss, I'm not that wealthy. Next could not find a single Ruger #1 stainless in the 4 city area here in Alaska. Ruger 77 safari, to expensive for a gun tinkerer to not mess with. Will I looked at the Remington the best price and available. To light, thinner barrel, OK but I'm not planning on a sheep hunt and a friend stated his kicked pretty good. Plus it would also require a new stock. No sako or savage available, will guess what that left? CZ 550 American Magnum - 375 H&H, in layaway at $769.00. I talked with several folks and with two reps from CZ. Will see if I made the best choice? I'm happy so far.

Lawdog, I'm going to steel bed the action even before I fire the first shot and will address the rear of the action carefully. What other recomendations does anyone else have? Going to smooth the trigger / action and smooth sharpen the edges of the express sight. re-seal the stock and rust oleum spray all exposed metal. Cheap but very effective rust proofing for here in Alaska. Work up 1st load with Speer 289gr GS, and H4350

Thanks Gents Old Moss

jrhen · « **Reply #20 on:** August 22, 2005, 05:53:56 PM »

Sounds like you are on the right track, cleaning, sealing and rust proofing your rifle for your environment. One other area to look at is the inside of the magzine, I found a rough edge that would not allow the last round to cycle into the rifle. A small stone and some rustoleum took care of that. Also in front of the recoil lug is a piece of nylon? that is tough to hold in place when re-assembling the rifle. When I was sealing the stock I stuck it in place before the sealant dried to solve this issue.

For loads in cold weather I would be intrested in hearing your experiance with Hogdons Varget powder. I started with Winchester brass but have found that they only make one run of it a year, it might be time to switch to Norma... I would also suggest a Lee Crimping die it has even worked on Sierra game kings.

One other thing to be careful of if you are planing to use the CZ mounts\rings are don't over tighten the four screws to secure the scope. I overtighten one and it sheared. Don't know my own strength.... :eek: You can not go to the hardware story and purchase replacments. If you break one you have two choices, CZ or an online screw dealer. I wanted hex head or torx head fastners, if memory serves me they were M3.5x.6.10mm grade 6, I bought some and the heads were too big and not angled so I chucked them up in a dremmel and turned them down and cold blued them. Took me a couple to get it right but the end results were worth it. I haven't had any breaks or screws loosening. I carry some of the orginal CZ screws in my gun kit as back ups.

Don't get me wrong these CZ rings are hellbuilt for stout. I applied too much stress to the screws. At the time they were the only choice I knew of for this rifle. Since then Warne and Leupold now make sets for CZ's, given the recoil I would put my money on Warne.

I really like this rifle and how it has performed at the range. I got drawn for Elk this year which is why this rifle was bought, 2 years ago... :roll: I will not be accused of entering the field "under" gunned. To quote a scene from Monty Pythons Holy Grail, "I fart in the general direction of your .338 you silly kniggnts"

brasskeeper · « **Reply #21 on:** August 26, 2005, 01:38:56 PM »

I vote for first place 375 H&H and 338 win mag second.
Here is a stainless bolt action Ruger 338 win mag for $477.36

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2685647

SeekHer · « **Reply #22 on:** September 25, 2005, 11:03:35 AM »

What about a Z-Hat lever gun based on the 1895 Win and in .375 Scoville Hawk or .411 Hawk. Fast shooting, hard hitting and you can get them in a takedown version.

Everyone has been touting the .375 H&H and it well deserves the praise. Other calibers to think about--.318 Westley Richards, .35Whelen, .350 Rigby, .358 Win Mag, .400 H&H or the .416 Rigby all excellent calibers.

jro45 · « **Reply #23 on:** September 27, 2005, 03:52:24 AM »

I would have to agree the 375 H&H is a all round gun. I would put the 338 RUM as a close second. Except the caliber isn't big enought in Africa.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #24 on:** September 27, 2005, 09:20:57 AM »

Quote from: jro45

I would have to agree the 375 H&H is a all round gun. I would put the 338 RUM as a close second. Except the caliber isn't big enought in Africa.

I am thinking of getting another 416 Rigby. I want a bolt action like a Ruger. If I get it I don't think I will be getting another 375 H&H. It is a great round though.

Lawdog · « **Reply #25 on:** September 27, 2005, 10:02:19 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1

Quote from: jro45
I would have to agree the 375 H&H is a all round gun. I would put the 338 RUM as a close second. Except the caliber isn't big enought in Africa.

I am thinking of getting another 416 Rigby. I want a bolt action like a Ruger. If I get it I don't think I will be getting another 375 H&H. It is a great round though.

Tell you what, I'll give you an option to getting another .416 Rigby. Get that Ruger M77 .375 H&H and have a .375 Weatherby reamer run thru it and then you'd have the perfect .375, The .375 Weatherby Magnum. :-D :-D Lawdog

SeekHer · « **Reply #26 on:** September 27, 2005, 12:29:04 PM »

ADDRESSES THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE

I forget to give the address for Z-Hat
http://www.z-hat.com/ for 1895 Winchester in .357 & 411 Hawk
and here is for Brockman's
http://www.brockmansrifles.com/ that someone else posted for rear sights
and Wild West Guns
http://www.wildwestguns.com/ from Alaska who make excellent takedown big bore lever guns
and Paco Kelly's Leverguns .com
http://www.leverguns.com/ for everything you ever wanted to know about lever guns and

some other Lever Action Gunsmiths

Nonneman Custom Rifle
http://www.leveractions.com/ and
Clement's Custom Guns
http://www.clementscustomguns.com/ and
Cosby's Custom Gunsmithing
http://www.cosbycustomguns.com/index.asp and
Doug Turnbull Restorations
http://www.turnbullrestoration.com/ and
Steve Young
http://www.stevesgunz.com/ who works mostly with Rossi 92 rifles but can slick up anything you have and
of course there is
M.L. (Mic) McPherson
http://www.levergun.com/main_index.htm

I would still lean towards the lever action for a number of reasons: {except some wildcats} fairly cheap to run; easily reloadable; cartridges available just about anywhere; some very hard hitting calibers; rugged & compact action; compact fast handling and pointing rifles even with 22" to 30" barrels; very fast second and third and shots; large magazine capacity; available in take down versions for transport & storage; ghost ring type sights easily installed and scopes can be mounted in the traditional or scout manner. They also have a historical mystic and a non intimidating manner about them. Yeah, almost PC (politically correct)!, Yeah, right!

My anti polar bear gun is a .425 Westley Richards bolt gun made in the early 1950s and a Remington 870 tactical 3" 12 bore pump shotgun individually loaded with "Bangers"--shoots out a noise shell and explodes in a big loud bang hopefully scaring away the bears, usually after four or five times they get the message and leave, and always with a huff--extended magazine then has 3 Slug and the remainder 000 or 00 buckshot. Cookshack has a Marlin 1894FG in .41 Rem Mag and a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in .45/70 Gov. We can't have handguns in Canada for hunting or defense in the wilds!

As I said before you can get a .375 H&H or a .416 Rigby bolt gun. They're both excellent, I lean to the Rigby calibers, and you won't go wrong with either of them. They both have similar velocities. Although the Rigby requires a larger action for the larger bolt faceplate, there are a fair number of good action makers that have them; Ruger is one. The .338 Lapua Mag or the .340 Weatherby is about the lowest that I would go, and I'd forget about the .338 Win Mag, albeit a good cartridge, it's just a little too low in the stats dept.

Good Hunting

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 27, 2005, 03:37:10 PM »

Quote from: Lawdog

Quote from: Redhawk1
Quote from: jro45
I would have to agree the 375 H&H is a all round gun. I would put the 338 RUM as a close second. Except the caliber isn't big enought in Africa.

I am thinking of getting another 416 Rigby. I want a bolt action like a Ruger. If I get it I don't think I will be getting another 375 H&H. It is a great round though.

Tell you what, I'll give you an option to getting another .416 Rigby. Get that Ruger M77 .375 H&H and have a .375 Weatherby reamer run thru it and then you'd have the perfect .375, The .375 Weatherby Magnum. :-D :-D Lawdog

I am sure it is a fine round, but the 416 Rigby has a certain kind of ring to it.

crow_feather · « **Reply #28 on:** September 27, 2005, 07:56:54 PM »

A Rigby might have a ring, but the 416 Rem Mag has the brass. (little play on words - brass bell......brass case)

C F

RemingtonMagnum · « **Reply #29 on:** September 27, 2005, 10:44:25 PM »

It all depends on who's calculation you read as to which is the better rifle the Weatherby are Remington 700 375 Ultra Mag. On some list the Weatherby is a hundred pounds the stronger and the Remington is the closer on target drop at 200 yards.

It gets down to which rifle do you like the best. For me it is extremely difficult to locate a Weatherby in the old mark V style and I personally don't like the new rifles they are selling as Mark V replacements.

The Remington 700 375 Ultra Mag is the style rifle I wanted and purchased.

Then you get to one of the root problems these Trajectory calculation list keep changing, one in particular! Guess the bottom line is how happy you are with a given firearm.

Don Jackson Remington Magnum