Why do surplus bolt actions shoot better than sporters?

[His lordship.]

Out of the many rifles I have owned I find that the following military bolt actions have been exceptional in the accuracy dept...Lee Enfield number 4 (1948 vintage), Swedish Mauser 96, both of my wartime made Mosin nagant 91/30's, all my Japanese arisakas, my Yugo Mauser 48, and 2 other Mausers with corrosion damaged bores.  These guns were used with open sights, and factory ammo.:grin:

I have purchased two new sporters over the years, a Remington 700 in .243 and my CZ 550 in 30-06.  These two guns were new and broken in properly, I have used hand loads and factory ammo.  Yet they can't hold a candle compared to the surplus guns mentioned before.  Ok, the Mosins and the Enfield have floating barrels, which helps, but the Mausers have tight stock band contact with the barrel, and they shoot soooo good.  I regret selling the Remington as it was an ADL before the quality went sour and now I realize that was how those sporters shoot, mediocre, could have used it for woodchucks at 75 yards with a scope.  My CZ in 30-06 with a 3 X 9 scope is at least trying, and I stand a chance of getting a better handload result, yet it cannot presently match my Mosins.

My small bores all shoot good and it seems that once you get into the 6 mm and larger the sporters seem to require lots of fancy work, bedding, custom barrels, etc. to get them to shoot well.  Lets see...fancy sporter, many hundreds of dollars to buy, gunsmithing work, maybe it will be a tack driver?   Cheap beat up surplus gun, tired barrel, open sights, no gunsmithing...tack driver as is.  You don't always get what you pay for.

Anyone else notice this too?

Thanks.

[Bigdog57]

Get yourself a Swiss K31, and prepare to be shocked!  They put the best Mosins, Enfields and Mausers to shame.  

I rarely see a sporter that will shoot an inch group at one hundred yards, scoped.
I have shot 1MOA groups at 100 yards with my K31, open sighted!  I'm almost afraid to see what it could do scoped.   :shock:

[jh45gun]

I agree them K31/s are great My favorite milsurp out of the ones I have with exception of  a Swede Mauser  that is no slouch either and one of my favorites. Most of these guns are good as they were built good. Even the Mosins as ugly as they are are darn good shooters at least most of them are and even the ones that are not if you can find a fat enough cast bullet they  shoot good too. Today too darn many guns leave the factory with flaws or problems. I will not even own a Ruger pistol anymore was two disapointed with the last two I owned. I should have kept the good ones I had earlier in life. These milsurps were made by craftsman when they took pride in making a gun even a military rifle. You can tell by the fit and finish if you have a pristine one. They still make some good guns today but I find myself favoring the older ones. Jim

[1911crazy]

My old '72 mossberg 30-06 will shoot 3/4" groups with my reloads. It won't shoot brand new ammo accurately at all. But my '94 Remington 700 in 338win.mag. will put two bullets thru the same hole benchrested at 100yds. using new winchester ammo, she will take the "X" right out and handheld i'm 1" from each bulls eye on three different targets in rapid fire mode. And its still has pin point accuracy at 170yds. I can't ask anything more or better than that from them.  Now recently the barrel quality on the new guns has fallen off.  Remington has been going down hill in quality since '95.  I have heard great things about the new Mossberg ATR rifle and its right out of the box accuracy with new over the counter ammo and its made in the USA thats unheard of nowadays.  But your right most of the surplus military guns i have shot can sure hold their own in the accuracy department too.  The sks paratrooper 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds with iron sites (16" barrel) and a 20" barreled scoped sks is an 1" and under all with chinese ammo. Overall these old military surplus guns sure can shoot accurately.  I'm sure we open up some ignorant eyes and minds when were at the range I love doing it too.  When my 100 year old swede mauser with iron sites out shoots a modern SWAT scoped rifle.

The bottomline is you can't replace the love of the trade with the CNC machines used today its the hands on craftsman that made these quality guns today its screw the quality and pop these guns out like pop corn on these high output machines and run these cutters beyond their life to save money but we pay top dollar for these new pieces of crap in the end and its the service dept at Remington that sucks too when a gun gets sent back 3 times and it still isn't repaired or when i purchased a new 1100 shotgun and right out of the box it jammed, and the second one in the store jammed too and the third one worked but i hocked it because they would give me my money back so that was my last remington product that me or anyone in my family will ever purchase. My new Mossberg shotgun is flawless.  YUP it sure makes the surplus guns very attractive now don't it.  I'm kind of scared sh!tless to buy a new rifle after all my last Remington 700 cost me $700 but i did get one of the last good remingtons before they went down hill.   So its either buy a used rifle or a new mossberg ATR  or a military surplus gun to build a sporter we really don't have much of a choice for a quality gun.  I'm not fond of a crap shoot when a gun costs $700? But a lot of guys change barrels too on the modern recievers to make them accurate. I also hoping we see more new saiga's in the near future too. I hope we see their bolt action line of rifles too as well as their sporters and their model 100 semi auto hunters too.  I believe the Russian Izhmash Saiga line of rifles will sure kick some @ss in our gun market.  The Saiga shotguns sure were taking off and flying off my dealers racks as fast as he could put them there too thats why Remington bought them and put their Spartan name on them because they have lost so much of their market share already and this new russian made affordable shotgun would send their own product under for sure so they tried to save face and buy and market the russian shotgun.  Its the american way now to buy your competitors product and market it as your own right? When you screw with the quality of your product you only screw yourself in the end.  YUP that $59 mosin sure does shoot good don't it?

BTW;  I try to buy the old ruger Security six's too when i see them too those 357mag's sure do shoot good their worth their weight in gold today.
They just don't make them like that anymore too. Just like those old S&W's too you don't see that many used ones for sale either.  Older is better!!!!

Just remember to MOLY up everything so it lasts too!!!!!!

[james]

Preach on BigBill. I like the sermon when its the truth.
james

[RedRyder21]

In the last year I have bought 5 or 6 various Mil-Surp rifles. I am going to buy a few more so I have the extra.

I have one new production "Savage" in .308 that is a tack driver that I wouldn't give up for anything.

I don't think I will ever buy a new production bolt action rifle again in my lifetime...

Whats the point when I can shoot my mil-surp's better than I can a new bolt action?

[Mikey]

BigBill and RedRyder21 have it right.  The old world quality of even the military rifles we call mil-surps seems to be a bunch better than the CNC machining results of today.  But is it?  The metals may be newer and the machining process more refined, but there is a basic difference in the design of the rifles.

Military rifles were designed to be shot, used, period.  And shot many, many thousands of times and used for things we would not even consider thinking about with some of our new sporters.  Sporters aren't designed for military use.  Sporters have lighter weight barrels and may even have different rifling twists to use heavier hunting bullets than the military loads.

The military has fairly rigid specifications as to what their weapons are required to do.  The civilan market is much more open - that is, their specs are not as rigid as the military is.  Just my thoughts.  Mikey.

[RedRyder21]

Hey Miley, you forgot one more reason for going with the Mil-surps!!!!!


   :grin: THE PRICE OF THEM :grin:  

[Shorty]

Shhh, Quiet, guys!
The Army and Marine snipers might hear you and demand their '03 Springfields back!  :wink:

[Slamfire]

Well I don't agree. My 1960 Savage 110L shoots every big as good as my 1945 Mukden Arisaka. Of course, it has the advantage of a 2x7 variable scope, but it still shoots good, especially since I had it rebored to .206 Rem.  

[jh45gun]

Well I don't agree. My 1960 Savage 110L shoots every big as good as my 1945 Mukden Arisaka. Of course, it has the advantage of a 2x7 variable scope, but it still shoots good, especially since I had it rebored to .206 Rem.  

 Well then I would not exactly call that  a factory sporter since you rebarreled it, which I think most of the premise of this thread is Modern factory made guns VS milsurps.

[1911crazy]

Well the swede's back in their day were the first ones to brew and use chrome moly steels and they had been known for their quality steels thru the 70's/80's too. Could it be we lost something in steel manufacturing too?

Example; When i was building CNC machines we had our own foundery for making cast iron it was one of the most modern foundery's this side of the mississippi.  Many years ago they would put green cast iron machine beds and parts out in the weather in racks to sesson no part was machined before its time just like fine wine. I noticed when these wizz bang college metal guru's took over they thought they could put additives in the cast iron to avoid the seasoning boy were they wrong. But they went on manufacturing it the same way with the additive anyway.  I really noticed the difference when i leveled a new machine bed for assembly.  The level would change overnite because the metal was still relaxing because of stresses.  I really seen the difference in seasoning when a older machine came into the shop for rebuilding when i set it up for assembly the level stayed rock solid the whole time i worked on the machine.  Of course the bed was seasoned.  My point is manufacturing time is a factor, time is money and screw the quality.

Could we be doing the same crap with steel too?  Since most of our steels are imported now I went to weld some channel once and it bent up like a wishbone the imported steel was garbage.  So where does our steel for our barrels come from??  YUP its from the same batch but its farther down the road with additives added right?

I built two machines for GE( for manufacturing jet engines) and in the end they cut test pieces to see how round they are and then they were put on a federal inspection machine that checks roundness.  My test parts were more round than the test machines calibration/setup test piece that came with the federal machine.  My point is its the hands on craftsmanship you put into it.  Its just like computers garbage in / garbage out?

I have had so many car mechanic jobs and the favorite saying from the company/factory was just get it out the door and fix it in the field!!!!!  And yes we did!!!  They passed the problems they knew about on to us.

Don't you think its the same mentality with the gun makers there in for the fast buck not the long haul and its starting to bite them bigtime. They don't care about quality they think your going to scope the gun anyway so the accuracy can be off because you can adjust it.  But that doesn't fix tight bolts, poor fit and finish?  I'm willing to bet these don't even go thru a quality control check too.  They probably laid off the quality control people to save money on overhead so now you end up with the worker checking and passing his won parts.  YUP thats it we get Joe Disgruntled employee making our gun parts or a pissed off at the world Sh!thead assembling our guns either way we lose?

Its not about making a quality product for the end user "US" its about giving the shareholders profits so their fat dumb and happy with fat wallets.  I have seen so many companies layoff people to show the stockholders profits too and they layoff the good guys and push Joe disgruntled employee to the end of his breaking point to make up for it because they can't lose the production numbers right? Dull button broach going down the barrel can't stop production to fix it? YUP 300 to 500rds to break in the barrel? Gee why does it shoot off the paper?

Now lets look at the Chinese sks most thought it was junk till you shoot one?? Hmm a quality product from China? Hold this thought for a minute.
Lets look at our automotive industry or whats left of it.  Our cars aren't selling mainly because of competion from overseas mainly japan/korea and European cars too. Everything does go full circle so what do you think is going to happen when China kicks in when we start trading with them?  There's a lot of stuff made in China and we don't really trade that much yet with them just wait till there cars get here? Japan will fall by the way side too just like us they will burn out too because of pressure from production and profits will bite them too.

The bottomline is if your not making a quality product get out of the way of the guy who will and he will take over the market overnite and pull the rug right out from under you.  The new Mossberg ATR is a fine example($214@ wally world) a quality affordable product screw the high priced stuff.  I'd rather take the mossberg hunting in the rain?  Modern guns are replaceable good surplus guns aren't.

[1911crazy]

sorry double post :roll:

[Jack Crevalle]

I'm surprised to hear about the CZ. I own a CZ in .22 hornet and it's just about the most accurate rifle I own (among them swedes and K31s). Of course, it has a scope on it and my milsurps generally do not but it will make one hole groups of 5 at 100yards. It is very finicky about what it is fed though. My theory is that the ammo, factory or handloads, need to be as close to 3000fps as I can get them and this means light bullets and max loads. I think it also took several boxes through the barrel to condition it also but that may just be an impression I got from trying many combinations of components.

[Bigdog57]

Be a while before we see Chinese cars - there aren't any.  China has US, Japanese and European companies making cars for their young but growing market, and their smog laws are virtually non-existant.  They need to bring their industries up to our standards before they can import to us.
I have two Chinese SKS carbines - the newer Norinco (1979 production), made with pressed barrel and stamped trigger housing for the civilian market, and the older Sino-Soviet version (1956 production) with threaded barrel and forged trigger housing.
Both shoot very well, though the forends needed to be shimmed to remove play in the barrel.  Looseness due to age, I guess.
My two Norinco .22 rifles are very good shooters too.  The Chinese can make outstanding guns, though they do skimp on the finishing - but that's partly why they are so cheap.
The Chinese also heat treat the entire barrel - you'll never wear out a Chinese barrel!  Most Western companies might spot heat treat the chamberface, if even that.  No wonder we see so many US-made rimfires with dinged chamberfaces from dry firing . . .
European companies take the quick&easy way nowdays too.  Hard to find the true craftsmanship of the 'old world'.  Labor costs money, and the bean-counters in the head office won't have it.

[1911crazy]

I have the older first imported chinese sks with both the threaded barrel and the pressed in pinned barrel. Some do say the pinned barrel is more accurate over the threaded in barrel. I haven't touched my sks's there orginal and accurate. There was a late batch of bad pinned barreled sks's too they were loose or loosened up some were repaired by one of the dealers or importers I can't remember who they just needed a larger sized pin.  I think the chinese towards the end did surpass the russians in quality.  I don't think there is a gun on the planet that will match the russian saiga.                            BigBill

[His lordship.]

Jack Crevalle...I feel poorly that you may have misunderstood what I was talking about on my CZ 550 in 30-06.  This has been my best sporter rifle in the upper calibers that I have owned.  But it is not as accurate as my other 6 CZ guns, or most of my military surplus bolt actions.  What is amazing on this 30-06 rifle is that it is the "Premium" model, nice Turkish stock, set trigger, fully adjustable, jeweled bolt, beautifully polished metal work, with a nice blued finish.  I bought it new 4 years ago for $425.00.  I can imagine that the Remington or Winchester version of this, fit and finish wise would be at least $1000.00, and the trigger still would not be as nice.  Yup, you don't always get what you pay for!    

I am still working on a good handload, and have tried various factory ammo, the old British Kynoch brand was the best, now if I can only find some 1950's vintage Kynoch ammo again. :?

At least this shows that it is trying.  My other CZ sporters, .223, .17 HMR, and .22 rimfire have always been scary accurate.  When you buy a CZ you are married to the gun, a real keeper.

[jh45gun]

About them Chinese guns I have a Chinese copy of a Walther Oylmpia 22 RF target pistol that will shoot as good as any target pistol out there. The fit and finish is excellent. The  grips look odd as they use wide checkering and the wood is not nice walnut but if not for that it is good as the gun it is copying. Same with the Norinco copy of the 45 1911 they are excellent guns I wish I would have never traded mine off but my ex bought it and we were going through the divorce and I did not want it as a reminder so I traded it off. The owner of the gun shop kept it and asked me if I was nuts as it was one of the best 45's he had shot yea it was accurate. I suppose they can make some clunkers and I know their tools suck but they make or can make some fine guns.  or I should say copies of fine guns that are fine.

[Slamfire]

Well I don't agree. My 1960 Savage 110L shoots every big as good as my 1945 Mukden Arisaka. Of course, it has the advantage of a 2x7 variable scope, but it still shoots good, especially since I had it rebored to .206 Rem.  

 Well then I would not exactly call that  a factory sporter since you rebarreled it, which I think most of the premise of this thread is Modern factory made guns VS milsurps.

No it is the original barrel. It has just been robored to a larger diameter and rerifled. That only costs about half as much as rebarreling. It mostly occurs when you have shot out the barrel.  

[jh45gun]

Did you have it rerifled or sleeved. Just wondering as you would think a new barrel would be cheaper than if you had it bored out and rerifled? Just wondering. Jim

[1911crazy]

ChrisD;  Back in '72 my new mossberg 30-06 with scope for $172 drove me nuts it wouldn't shoot tight groups at all with any kind of new ammo I sent down the pipe.  I even tried some military ammo the FMJ stuff too. But in the end I ended up reloading for it and using IMR 4350 powder with 180gr speer magnum mag tip bullets she finally started shooting nickle sized groups benchrested @ 100yds and still shoots them to this day.  At first i was shooing the hottest load of 56.5grs and it grouped tighter right away but when i dropped the load back to 55grs the nickle sized groups started.  I went to large rifle magnum primers because of full case loads had miss fires with std large rifle primers. Its my favorite load for any 30-06 now.  My brothers Remington 7400 30-06 pump shoots  great with my reloads too.  There isn't much difference between 56.5 and 55grs too in power there very close.  This is the load i tested in wet sand and the bullet opened up perfectly and he went out hunting and it performed the sameway on a blackbear.  I'm kind of old school with the speer magnum mag tips but they sure do work well, its one of the first bullets I look for when i'm researching a new caliber to reload for.  I know they make them in 7mm too(160gr & 175gr) but not in 6.5mm I wished they did make them in 130gr & 140gr. I think they call them something like "hot core" now too.  The powder burn rate relates to barrel twist too so changing the powder may improve the accuracy too.  Its a crap shoot the whole time but when its finally right the monkey is off my back.  It was my first rifle and the only one I had accuracy problems with too go figure?
But i hung in there with it and i never sold it but in the end i got it right.

 "please remember this load is for a modern rifle"

[cal sibley]

I have 3 of the old Swedish M96 mausers in 6.5x55 that I've restored, and they are all quite accurate.  Sweden was one of the few countries that regularly recalled their rifles to an arsenal for testing.  You can determine the barrels condition by reading the gold colored metal fisk in the buttstock.  One of mine has a turned down bolt and small holes in the left side of the receiver indicating it was used as a sniper rifle.  It's a real sweetheart and from 1907 no less.  Having said this, I have a M98 German mauser in 8x57 that might go a ways in explaining how Germany lost two world wars.  Some of them have seen too much service and are really the worse for wear.  This is also true for some of the British .303s.
How good these rifles are is often related to how much service they've seen.  I admit, get a good one, and it's worth its weight in gold, but certainy they don't always fit that description.  It's a mixed bag at best.
Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

[jh45gun]

Today the 3 best choices for getting a accurate milsurp is #1 The K31's most all of these have excellent bores and shoot great. There may be a few clunkers out there but I have not heard of one yet even the crappy ones that have worn blueing and chewed up stocks still seem to shoot good as the bores are so good. #2 Like Cal said the Swedish Mausers these shoot well even with a 3 grade bore but now the prices for these are riseing as they are getting to the bottom of the barrel or so it seems. 3# A Finn Mosin Nagant either a 39 or a 28/30 or a 28 0r 27. These are known as good shooters though it depends on how they are too as you may get a worn one of these. Anything else may or maynot shoot good depending on the condition of the gun and some just may not shoot worth a darn at all. I would stay away from the carcano's either they shoot ok or you could not hit a barn with one if you were inside it. Jim

[Slamfire]

Sorry, fat fingers.

[Slamfire]

Did you have it rerifled or sleeved. Just wondering as you would think a new barrel would be cheaper than if you had it bored out and rerifled? Just wondering. Jim

You can get low intensity cartriddges sleeved or lined. Nobody would do that with anything more powerful than one of the cowboy action cartridges. As for cost, a new barrel has to be contoured, chambered, blued or otherwise protected from the elements. None of those things are necessary with your old barrel, and you won't have to rebed your stock either.

[1911crazy]

I haven't seen a military surplus gun wether its a semi-auto or bolt action shoot bad yet I think their all pretty much equal if you get one with a good bore.  The old russian mosins can shoot good too don't sell them short either they do shoot a tad better than the 8mm mausers.  I say tad meaning very little difference but the mosin is more accurate even though its more crudely made. I'm not knocking any of them i like them all. But i can't judge one gun by shooting and comparing just one its not a fair comparison.  But most of the sights can be adjusted if you have too.  I have found the big bore semi-auto's used and right out of the box rearsenaled to shoot at 12oclock but all 2" to 4" high at 100yds  with military surplus ammo thats your normal military sight in specs but they sure do group good/tight and i wouldn't want to be at 100yds infront of one nor at 600yds either even with iron sites these old war horses will clean your clock these puppies ain't playing there made for distance with iron sites there not like the modern rifles of today that have to be scoped were also talking telephone pole long barrels too for that long reach to touch someone(29").  Even the French MAS 49/56 Commando Rifle is one mean little SOB don't let the cute little gun fool you that little short barrel will group tight about 3" above the x ring.  Then the love of my life my M96 swede what a gun she is so sweet to shoot and with very little recoil you can shoot it all day long.   The '95 7mm mauser is almost like the swede its sweet to shoot too but don't let the little 7x57 round fool you it has dropped elephants.  The 7x57 round is one of the most flatest shooting rounds if you look at the ballastics caculator with a 125yd zero it run a path that varies 1/2" if that the whole distance.  I haven't gone beyond that distance on the caculator to see what it does at longer distances but the shorter distances it impressed me.  YUP its an old military caliber too right?? I could go on and on but.....some other time.

[S.S.]

There is something to be said for things that are finished by craftsmen
rather than finished by machines. Most of my milsurps will shoot circles
around my model 70 Winchester. I have an 1891 mauser that I would
put up against any modern turnbolt.

[Slamfire]

One thing not touched on so far would be the stability of the stock. When you have a piece of wood that was made into a gun stock 40 or 50 years ago, it isn't nearly as sensative to changes in temperature or humidity.

[1911crazy]

One thing not touched on so far would be the stability of the stock. When you have a piece of wood that was made into a gun stock 40 or 50 years ago, it isn't nearly as sensative to changes in temperature or humidity.

Don't forget in the old days things(wood) were allowed to season naturally in a time when we weren't in a rush to make money and profits.  I guess doing things the right way isn't so important anymore.  When the last real craftsman of every trade is gone the art of that trade and the tricks of that trade is gone forever and it will never return again to what it once was.

Example;  I seen a guy the other day without his electronic tool to see whats wrong with a car, he couldn't tell exactly what was wrong with it overheating?  With an older car the newer mechanics are lost mainly because with the new cars they don't have to think anymore the electronic tool tells them whats wrong with it.  He just kept on changing parts and it still overheated.(water pump, thermostat, radiator)  DA!!! Think it could be the Headgaskets???  He could of checked the anti-freeze for bubbles or exhaust gases first. So we lost some of the old trade knowledge already.  So we the customer suffer.

[j two dogs]

I have a Swedish Mauser that I purchased some years back when Kimber
was getting back in the game. I can't remember exactly what I gave, two and a quarter or something like that. I shoot two handloads in it
1. 125 gr. Nosler partion with 4064.
2. 129 gr. Hornady spire point with 4064 also.

This particular gun with these handloads will shoot under a inch all day long. It's funny that I bought this gun when I first got married and money
was tight thinking, someday I'll trade up. Many factory sporters have come and gone through my gun safe but the Ole' Swede still rest in a place of honor, I guess thats testimony in itself.

I thought I read somewhere that Carl Gustaf himself made a rule that
no gun would leave the armory unless it would shoot 1.5 inches or better at 150 meters.