Author Topic: Levergun in a shootout - suicide? (Read 1477 times)

Downeaster · « **on:** July 26, 2005, 04:06:07 PM »

I guess I'll have a little fun with this topic. OK! if you had to have a levergun in a true defensive (quasi-combat) situation (let's say going up against some punk or terrorist type with an AK or SKS), which levergun (if that is all you had - no AR's, etc), would you choose? p.s., I'm not talking super long range (within 100 yards).

Myself, I wouldn't feel terribly outguned with my Marlin 94 (it holds 10 + 1 capacity and with the side loading gate can be loaded on the fly). Also, 44 mag is more than powerful enough at this range (actually more powerful than 7.62X39).

I know I would probably never have to use my brush hunting rifle in such a situation but it would still be a comfort. What do you guys think?

old06 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 26, 2005, 05:30:24 PM »

Winchester 94 trapper in 357 holds 10 + 1 and points quick, cycle's fast hits hardand will keep all rounds in a 1 1/2 if I had to.

big k · « **Reply #2 on:** July 26, 2005, 06:43:34 PM »

Get out of her with that old06

. i'd take my Marlin 1894 44mag over a winchester any day. More reliable and better lookin

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #3 on:** July 26, 2005, 06:56:01 PM »

Interesting thought...

Although I'll admit given the choice, I'd prefer a good "combat" style rifle in that situation, I'd feel pretty well armed with my 1894C. It's fast handling, smooth, utterly reliable, and if I had to use a lever action, it'd definately be my first choice.

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** July 27, 2005, 02:41:07 AM »

Gentlemen - a few years ago there was an article in one of the gun mags about some 'urban' defense rifles and they include pictures of some dressed Winchester 94s (black stocks, matt finishes, lazer sights and scopes, trigger jobs, etc). Caliber of choice was 30-30. I bleive Jeff Cooper once opined that a Model 94 in 30-30 would be a good choice for home defense or even urban defense, although he said he would prefer the 303 British round in that rifle.

Yep, AKs and SKSs can put out a lot of firepower, but it usually only takes one hit from a good caliber, like a 30-30, to end a situation.

It was once said that a man who owns only one rifle most like knows how to use it well. I don't think there is anything wrong with chosing a lever action brush rifle for that type of situation. Mikey.

jgalar · « **Reply #5 on:** July 27, 2005, 02:55:41 AM »

From the news clips that I have seen of gang shootouts, you could do just fine with aimed fire with a single shot. They fire their handguns tilted on the side and their long guns from the hip. To them its not cool to use a gun the way it was intended and they haven't figured out what sights are for.

CJ · « **Reply #6 on:** July 27, 2005, 07:46:33 AM »

I would feel at least even odds, 30/30 and 7.62X39 are so similar it hardly matters. I'd even feel comfy with a .44 or .357 lever under 100 yds. The man behind the rifle wins or loses this one.
PS Mikey,
It was Cooper who thought a plain old 30/30 with a ghost ring was a proper police weapon in place of ARs, shotguns, etc.

GatCat · « **Reply #7 on:** July 28, 2005, 02:55:26 AM »

You know, I've thought about this before, and I wish the loading gate would be on the other side, so a right hander like me could do combat reloading with the off (left) hand. Either a .357 or a .44 would be just fine.

Mikey · « **Reply #8 on:** July 28, 2005, 03:06:05 AM »

CJ - thanks. I think Cooper is right. Mikey.

Old Griz · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2005, 11:05:27 AM »

:cb2: Well if ya hit one of them with a .45-70, the results might scare the other ones off! :-D

Old Griz · « **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2005, 11:12:12 AM »

:cb2: By the way, I did read of a Special Forces grunt in 'Nam that carried a .444. Now that left a bigger hole than a M-16! And I bet he never had to shoot anyone twice!

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #11 on:** July 31, 2005, 07:37:45 AM »

A .44, .30-30, .375, .444, 450M or .45-70 would all work, but I plan to do my best to never find out how well.

old06 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 31, 2005, 04:01:29 PM »

Get out of her with that old06 .

i'd take my Marlin 1894 44mag over a winchester any day. More reliable and better looking Well big k not to rain on your party but have you ever heard of the "Marlin jam" dont get me wrong I own 2 Winchesters 94 and 2 Marlins 336 and over the last 35 or so years have own several more of each these. This came off of the levergun web site go take a look at it. It has pictures and all but here is the jest of it. For one thing "looking" good and "shooting" good are not to be confused. Your just a kid and there is still hope for you hang in there and don't learn ever lesson the hard way.......Bob The "Marlin Jam" as it is affectionately known is caused by an inherent design/manufacturing flaw of the Marlin lever. The lever has a snail shaped cam surface that goes around the pivot screw. This snail shaped cam rides on a sloped surface on the bottom of the carrier and raises the carrier enough to allow the first incoming shell into the carrier and to block the next incoming round from jamming up the works. Every time the lever is cycled the carrier bounces on the forward edge of the cam. The forward most edge of this cam is left sharp at the factory (the flaw). The bouncing forges a notch into the bottom of the carriers' slide surface and over time (high number of cycles) lowers the carriers' initial pick-up height allowing the rim of the next incoming shell to slip over the front and jam it up tight. Simply changing the carrier out as many repair places do is only a temporary fix at best. The new carrier will get a notch forged into it from the sharp edge of the lever cam and over time will settle downward in the action and again give you the Marlin Jam.

oso45-70 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 31, 2005, 07:45:18 PM »

Just line them up and shoot through the whole bunch with a 444 or 45-70 and save on ammo. with a marlin. Thats what i think.......Joe.........

Mikey · « **Reply #14 on:** August 01, 2005, 02:24:32 AM »

Old Griz - That man was a Special Forces NCO who was based with one of the B-Teams out of Pleiku. He purchased his Marlin from the PX in Saigon. He was never authorized to carry it in the field, period. Thankfully his team leader had more sense than that. He was reputed to have used it a few times on a couple of hogs that foraged around the compound but I'm not certain he used it against any enemy personnel. Mikey.

Old Griz · « **Reply #15 on:** August 01, 2005, 03:41:52 AM »

:cb2: Thanks for the info Mickey. I don't remember a lot of the details. The picture in the article I read had a caption that said something about using it when they were clearing out bunkers. I believe it was the penetration and energy of the .444 round that was being discussed. But gosh, that wuz so long ago . . . the brain is so fuzzy . . . :oops:

CJ · « **Reply #16 on:** August 01, 2005, 05:00:43 AM »

GREAT,
So my "has never jammed yet" .35rem that I've been happily shooting deer with for 20+ years and bought from an old timer who probably used it at least as long is just waiting to jam up on me? Along with my other 7 or 8 Marlins? Guess I better have a garage sale LOL.
Seriously though, has anyone here experienced this? Only jams I've seen in Marlins have been some looong .357swc's in my 1894 and soft shucking my 45/70. In a defensive situation I doubt working the lever slow will be a problem. Lets hear some stories.

tomaldridge · « **Reply #17 on:** August 01, 2005, 05:33:22 AM »

I agree the lever action rifle is fine as a mid-range varint solution. Just had a "discussion " with a gun-control type, though, who wanted semi-autos banned. My contention is that the type of weapon matters little, it's the type of person holding it. This has been a few years ago, but there was a confrontation in Missoula, Montana that should illustrate what really matters. Wayne Nance was a serial murderer who was stalking Doug Wells' wife. One night, Wayne Nance went to the Wells residence, caught Doug Wells outside, shot him in the head, beat him with a pipe, dragged him to the basement, tied him to a pole, and stabbed him in the chest. Nance then went upstairs, beat and tied up Wells' wife. It was the wrst nightmare scenario, and for real. Wells managed to get free of the rope, and loaded a Savage 99 take-down that was on his work bench. I believe he only got one round in. He then made it upstairs and put that round where it did the most good. Both he and his wife lived, and Wayne Nance was buried soon thereafter. I just hope that any threat to my family finds me as effective as Doug Wells, regardless of what weaponry is available.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #18 on:** August 02, 2005, 12:45:56 PM »

My .357 marlin has had a couple of thousand rounds thru it, most in cowboy comps, all at the fastest speed I can make the only jams I've had are due to my reloading errroers much like my typing errors usally loaded a little too short and it don't like .38s.

Cowboy action shooting is the same as any other fast paced shooting sport just with older style firearms. Just ask Custer.

hogship · « **Reply #19 on:** August 05, 2005, 08:22:04 PM »

This thread wasn't intended to be a "Ford vs Chevy" type of argument between Marlin and Winchester owners. My .357 Winchester trapper has been 100% reliable and will put the bullet where it counts up to 100yds.....I'm sure the Marlin .357 counterpart will do the same.

They both would be a good choice for defensive purposes.....if that's what was available.

I'd prefer a military style semi-automatic rifle, but that wasn't the question.

hog

gino · « **Reply #20 on:** August 06, 2005, 07:40:03 AM »

The only drawback that I can see using a lever action in a shootout scenario is that shooting from prone might be a problem. Since I have severe arthritis in my neck and can't shoot ANYTHING from prone that ain't no big thing!
gino