Author Topic: Which caliber (Read 1662 times)

handirifle · « **on:** July 27, 2005, 06:13:30 PM »

I am trying to simplify my caliber assortment of all hunting rifles. I want a 30-06 for my Handi to go with my Savage, but would really like the 26" length. Then I'll have 223, 30-06, and 375 Win (not a Handi).

My thought is to get a 25-06 or 280 and ream it to 30-06, BUT both appear to be longer then the 30-06 case and might preclude me from using factory brass in it which could REALLY complicate matters if both rifles were taken. Getting ammo confused would almost be a certainty.

The 26" is not a HAVE TO, but it looks a LOT better than the 22". I know the 280 is a good round but to ME the 30-06 is better. Not wanting to start a war but want to stay with the 30-06. Any suggestions?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** July 27, 2005, 06:26:20 PM »

Reboring the 25-06 to 30-06 should be fine, I've shot 30-06 brass necked to .338 in my 338-06 which has a 25-06 chamber on it with no problems. The only thing Wayne did to the chamber was cut the neck larger and a bit longer for the weatherby A-square brass, he made no changes to the rest of the chamber. We discussed having the chamber neck too long, and that wasn't an issue, but having a chamber neck too short would cause a problem, specially in a Handi. When your smith cuts the neck for the .30-06, he can cut the neck any length you want him to since it's gonna clean up the .257 neck completely.

Tim

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 27, 2005, 07:15:18 PM »

Maybe I don't understand what you are trying to do. Cutting the chamber to 30-06 should be no problem but how are you going to cut the rifleing for 30 caliber? Unless you know someone who would ream the barrel and sleeve it as that seems the only way to make it work. Looks to me like the expense would far outweigh any benefit. :money: Just my two cents.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 27, 2005, 07:52:11 PM »

Quote from: Nightrain52

Maybe I don't understand what you are trying to do. Cutting the chamber to 30-06 should be no problem but how are you going to cut the rifleing for 30 caliber? Unless you know someone who would ream the barrel and sleeve it as that seems the only way to make it work. Looks to me like the expense would far outweigh any benefit. :money: Just my two cents.

Hmmmm the expense would out weigh the benefit???

I really don't think so... :wink:

Handirifle...get one of these...you won't be sorry...

Mac

handirifle · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2005, 02:51:39 AM »

nighttrain
The barrel can easily be rebored and while it might be more money (200-300) I think the looks, balance, and performance would be worth it. If it were a performance ONLY issue I'd agree.

Quick, I had you in mind when I thought this up, I'll have to talk to my smith and see what he says.

The 280 MIGHT be a better start since it is more of a general purpose round, at least closer to the '06.

JPH45 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2005, 12:44:21 PM »

I haven't looked handirifle, but doesn't NEF offer a 24" 308 barrel? That would be your ticket although I believe you would end up with a better barrel on a rebore job.

handirifle · « **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2005, 12:46:19 PM »

Yes they do, but it is only in a heavy barrel (not what I want) and the 30-06 will not clean up the 308 chamber.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #7 on:** July 28, 2005, 01:10:11 PM »

Quote from: handirifle

nighttrain

The 280 MIGHT be a better start since it is more of a general purpose round, at least closer to the '06.

handi'

because of your handloading abilities, i'd definitely go with the .280 Rem' in a 26" barrel (leaving it as a .280) because of the excellent 7mm bullets that are out there. there are a lot of Excellent bullets for deer, bear, moose, etc. if your rifle likes the Hornady 139 gr btsp in .284 cal' you'll really reach out and touch something.

as i remember your Sa......SSSSSaaaaaa........(oh boy!) that 'S'-rifle was in .30-06, so you've got that one covered -- and with a 'repeater'. SSSSaaaaaaa :eek:

forget it.

SS'

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #8 on:** July 28, 2005, 01:11:39 PM »

I thought H&R offers a 30-06 handi rifle?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2005, 01:21:19 PM »

Quote from: Krochus

I thought H&R offers a 30-06 handi rifle?

They do, but it's only a 22" barrel.

Tim

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2005, 01:23:34 PM »

OOPS!!! I goofed and misread the above post.!!!

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2005, 01:28:12 PM »

You could have a 22" 30-06 barrel threaded to add 2 or 3 inches of screw on muzzle brake th give the appearance of a longer barrel.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** July 28, 2005, 01:34:11 PM »

Or......you could just buy Wally's 24" barreled UltraComp .30-06!!! :grin:

Tim

handirifle · « **Reply #13 on:** July 28, 2005, 03:19:55 PM »

All tempting ideas. If I didn't have the SSSSSS ha ha I'd go with the 280 and not look back, but I looked at midway and the factory stuff is limited.

I only worry about that in case I lost my ammo on a trip somehow. Minor concern but one still.

I sent an email of the the "smith" to get his input so I'll see what he has to say.

Actually, now that I look again at [urlhttp://stevespages.com/page8d.htm] Steve's Pages [/url] it shows the shoulder the same length on the 25-06 and 30-06. His drawings show the 25 as having a .441 shoulder and the 30 having .436 at the shoulder. The only question might be in accuracy of the smaller shouldered 30-06 case in the re-chambered chamber.

Loading ONLY for that one would be easy since I could neck size but it might not chamber in my SSSSSS as SS called it.

Looks like factory fodder WOULD interchange. But then again, headspacing might be a big issue. ARRRGGGHHHH :x why are my ideas always like this? Maybe I'm stuck with a 22" barrel :cry:

JPH45 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 28, 2005, 05:34:08 PM »

I'm just curious handirifle, just how much does the 30-06 give up from a 26" tube to a 22" tube? I also understand it could be a matter of asthetics. I have the 38-55 Target Model barrel, a 28" heavy (at least by NEF standards) and it is quite muzzle heavy, enough so to make it quite different from my 22" heavy barrel guns. I enjoy shooting them offhand, the 38-55 is nearly a chore to do so very long. It'd be nice to handle a 26" tube just to see the difference, but I'm willing to bet a 22" or 24" barrel will be a better balanced rifle.

As to barels to choose from, since you are looking at a rebore job, the 223 24" heavy barrel could be a place to start.

handirifle · « **Reply #15 on:** July 29, 2005, 06:15:03 AM »

JPH
It IS mostly asthetics. As far as performance, I'd guess, maybe 100-200fps, not a huge amount but when I like the looks of the longer barrel every extra reason for getting it is icing on the cake. :wink:

I used to have a BC and am very familiar with the nose heaviness you describe, but since the 26" barrel has more taper to it it shouldn't be as bad. I do have the 24" 223, since that was what my original purchase was, the 223 UV. With the 24" heavy barrel it too, is nose heavy but I like the extra weight for off hand shooting. Which by the way was the only shot presented to me when coyote hunting last winter, but he took off before I got off a shot.

I got a quick reply back from the "smith" and he says the 25-06 will work just fine

but not the 280. So a 25-06 (soon to be a 26" 30-06) it will be. Of course the Idea of a 26" 35 Whelen AI is starting to seem intriguing, but that would be ANOTHER caliber that I don't have time to reload.

If I had a mind I'd make it up. :roll:

safetysheriff · « **Reply #16 on:** July 29, 2005, 10:42:52 AM »

Quote from: handirifle

JPH

If I had a mind I'd make it up. :roll:

handi'

of all the things you've lost in life, you miss your mind the most.....

:wink:

try this: www.findarticles.com and re-read Layne Simpsons article about brown bear kills (85 harvests he researched in the notes of a guide). type in Layne Simpson and it'll be one of the NRA American Hunter (april 2002) articles reprinted there. he speaks about the .270 Win and its one-shot kills of 'brownies' with the Nosler 150 gr' Partition! it's not a fluke, it's just thorough bullet development in the .270 (like the .30-06), and it's the .270 Win' velocity that gets it done.

just a thought, but with that '06 SSSS.........SSSSSssssaaaa :eek: you don't need another .30 cal rifle.

just my two cents,

ss'

ps: SSSSssssaaaaauuusssage!

nope, not yet....

handirifle · « **Reply #17 on:** July 29, 2005, 10:52:22 AM »

SS
You're not helping!

safetysheriff · « **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2005, 04:59:39 PM »

handi'

maybe this will be some help - because it comes from one of the best writers i've ever read. even if he is somewhat on the conservative side in his opinions about handguns, he seems to know what he speaks about.

ed matunas used IMR 4350 working up to 60 gr' loads with 150 gr' Speer spitzers, per "Handloader's Digest" eleventh edition. page 86. he got 3018 fps out of a 22 inch barrel! he got 2750 fps with a 180 gr' bullet using the same imr 4350 as his propellant.

my point is, don't hold back getting a straight-up .30-06 in a Handi' with the 22" barrel if you either handload or can get a hold of Hornady light magnums or Federal High Energy rounds. i sincerely believe the 22" Handi will deliver the goods.

i hope this has been helpful.

ss'

Datil · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2005, 05:38:41 PM »

Nighttrain 52, I don't think you can find a Gun Smith that will
reline a barrel for a high pressure caliber such as 06 280 270 or a 243 for that matter just my 2 cents. Marv.

handirifle · « **Reply #20 on:** July 29, 2005, 05:52:39 PM »

SS
Point taken and while I haven't loaded any 150gr loads, I have matched his 180gr load in my 22" barrel Savage. Like I'd mentioned it was mostly asthetics.

I'm kinda thinking maybe get a 30-06 AND a 44 Mag barrel.

If I could find my mind I could make it up.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 29, 2005, 06:23:03 PM »

Handi:

Here's something else to chew on a bit...take a close look at the velocity differences between a 26" 270 and a 22" 270...I know what they are...and you need to find a few articles on the virtues of the 26" 270 barrels...when I had my big W westerner...I was told by several folks to recheck my velocities on some of my 130 grain handloads...they were that good...not 500 or 600 fps faster mind you( of course I didn't use any of that special H4831sc.:wink: :wink: )..so...if you really wanted a long range gun...with lots of bullets...get true magnum velocities from a standard round...then have Wayne make you a 26" 270 from the 25-06...

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd270winchester.jpg

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd2506remington.jpg

It was what I was going to do before getting the 338-06 done...it is very doable and you will love it...heck...I might even have it done before years end...this would make a-lot of sense to do...more so than the 280...the 280 needs the 26" tube to get the velocity as high as it does...the 270Win gets it from a 22" barrel...and like what's been said...with all the good bullets that is out for the .277's...it makes it even better.....that 4" of extra barrel makes a big difference on this type of cartridge...

Like I said...just something to chew on :wink:

Mac

safetysheriff · « **Reply #22 on:** July 30, 2005, 04:25:28 PM »

Mac,

i read briefly a couple years ago about one heck of a .270 that was a custom rifle with a 26" barrel. it could easily produce the .270 wsm (or is it wssm?) velocities without the other problems that they have found with those new Winchester 'brainstorms'. i see it two ways: get a longer barrel if you're already at the max' pressures, or get a better/higher bc' bullet to reach out further. either way the results can be improved. and the whole thing about it is this: the 22" barrel'd .30-06 is a powerhouse, but that long-barrel'd .270 will reach out even further......and do it with bullets of greater sectional density for better penetration!

i personally like your idea, Mac.

take care,

ss'

handirifle · « **Reply #23 on:** July 30, 2005, 08:11:10 PM »

Mac
First off I'm not a real fan of the 270, no one reason, but not one I'd like to have. When I compare trajectories of the 270 and 30-06, using heavy for caliber bullets, I see no gain over the 30-06. Second, the 280 (which I don't want either) is slower cause it was loaded to lower pressures from the get-go. I've read that from numerous sources. If the 280 were loaded to the same pressures, it would produce GREATER velocities.

To prove that, just compare your own readouts of the 338-06 vs. a 30-06. As the square of the bullet base goes up, given a specific pressure, so does the velocity. Think a 30-06 can push a 180gr bullet to 3000 plus? Yet the 338-06, with the same case can. The same logic would apply to the 270 vs 280 IF pressures were the same, and reloading manuals will not show them the same.

It's the same way they got '06 velocities from the 308, higher pressures.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 31, 2005, 10:10:07 PM »

I went with the 338-06 just to have a unique caliber in a Handi...one that is easy to load for...brass is easy to come-by...and to have heavier weight bullets available when the time comes to use them...With the 270...they have plenty enough bullet choices to fill the bill as well with their high sectional densities for penatration and light weight bullets for those thin skin critters...Sure...I know you can push the 280 a-lot harder...but...I would be willing to bet you'll max it out...in a Handi...long before you see a great velocity gain...unless ofcourse your using that special powder folks were talking about awile back :wink:...the extra 4" of barrel for the 270 will give you a-lot more without pushing it any harder to begin with...that's the point I'm trying to make...and...all is moot...if you really don't like the .277 caliber anyway...

Mac

FirstFreedom · « **Reply #25 on:** August 03, 2005, 05:12:33 AM »

Quote

because of your handloading abilities, i'd definitely go with the .280 Rem' in a 26" barrel (leaving it as a .280) because of the excellent 7mm bullets that are out there. there are a lot of Excellent bullets for deer, bear, moose, etc.

+1

handirifle · « **Reply #26 on:** August 03, 2005, 10:26:45 AM »

Mac
Maybe I should have worded it diferently, but what I meant was if the 270 and the 280 were loaded to the SAME pressures, even in a Handi, I think the 280 would out speed the 270 bullet weight for bullet weight.

Again go to the manuals and compare the 30-06 and 338-06 using same weight bullets. The larger bullet dia wins. But yea the 270 has proven itself so it doesn't need my support, it just doesn't strike me for whatever reason.

I'd for sure take the 280 if I could make up my missing mind on what I'd convert it to.

I suppose if I were to go to 338 or 35 it (the 280) would work, but since the 280 has a longer case I'm not sure how well the new dies would work on the larger calibers.

Fred M · « **Reply #27 on:** August 03, 2005, 11:10:18 AM »

handirifle
Both the 270 and the 280 have longer brass than the 06 and the 280 has it all over the 270 in all departments. If you go for a rebore job you would have a wild cat like 338-280 or a 35-280, because the chamber can't be set back in a Handi to make it a 338-06 or a 35 Whelen.

Standard dies for these two would not fit too well and you would need custom dies made from your fired cases. Not worth the trouble in a Handi. If you have a rebore in mind get a 25-06 or a 30-06 for 35 Whelen or a 338-06.

If you were to go for a 338 Parr you have an equal to the 338 Win Mag.
This is a wild cat I helped designing for a friend. Using the max length of a 280 case with a very short neck ala Gibbs with 45 deg shoulder and a nearly straight case.

This baby gets nealy 2700 ft/sec with a 250gr bullet.

handirifle · « **Reply #28 on:** August 03, 2005, 11:47:34 AM »

Fred
That was what I suspected and the smith I have been talking to confirmed this for me earlier. He too, said the 25-06 would work, even though it too, is slightly longer than the 30-06 case. It must still be within SAAMI tolerances, I am guessing.

I think the 338-06 would be more than enough to fill my long range desire. I may yet stay with a standard '06 case.

I need to find my mind so I can make it up. :grin:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 03, 2005, 08:13:58 PM »

Quote from: handirifle

Mac
Maybe I should have worded it diferently, but what I meant was if the 270 and the 280 were loaded to the SAME pressures, even in a Handi, I think the 280 would out speed the 270 bullet weight for bullet weight.

Again go to the manuals and compare the 30-06 and 338-06 using same weight bullets. The larger bullet dia wins. But yea the 270 has proven itself so it doesn't need my support, it just doesn't strike me for whatever reason.

I'd for sure take the 280 if I could make up my missing mind on what I'd convert it to.

I suppose if I were to go to 338 or 35 it (the 280) would work, but since the 280 has a longer case I'm not sure how well the new dies would work on the larger calibers.

I understood you Bro...my point is...in a Handi ..you have to have a 26" barrell to achive it's superiority over a 23" 270...and I'm just going by factory loads and the stated velocities I've seen...now...start reloading...your right...the bigger bullet isn't as long...hence...lower pressures for the same weight bullet...but along with that...you will also have a lower sectional density rating for the same weight bullet...and the .277 will come out on top.Another factor...while it may not mean a whole lot to you...is that the majority of 270's will not shift much on the P.O.I. of all the various bullet weights...from the lightest to the heaviest...not so for the 280's...if you change a 25-06's 26" barrel over to the .277 caliber...you will gain between 100-150fps for the extra 3" or so...depending on which factory load you use...now compare the 2 and you will see...I also know you can bump up the 280 to higher pressures by handloading...provided your Handi can take it...to utilize the increase...not all will.... without a-lot of work...but...if your going to go to the trouble and expense of doing it...a-little more work shouldn't be a bother...and if it does...then so much the better...

I'm not knocking the 280...it's a great round in it's own right...and I know quite a few folks who have them in their bolt guns...some of them do reload as well...and can take advantage of the additional pressures generated by going over the max listed loads and you have a little bit heavier bullets to choose from.....but...we are talking about Handi rifles...and reboring one to a different caliber...or rechambering one to a different case...either way...there are different considerations to go over.

Fred has already told you about some possibilities on the rechamber...and I still say the 25-06 is the best canditate for the job...the conversion to the 338-06 A-Square is basiclly stright forward...but I will make a suggestion for you...if your planning on using non Weatherby brass...you will need along taperd expander plug to form your brass...it makes it much easier...and it is a very simple process to convert 30-06 or 35 Whelen brass to this round...heck...I even did up a batch of nickle Remington cases without any problems...

Mac