Scope & Caliber Help

[Coyote65]

New to the forum here so bear with me. After reading this well schooled forum I have decided to purchase a Tech Force 99 Magnum and have it drop shipped to charlie the tuna for a tune. I am unsure whether to get the 177 or the 22 cal, probably will only target shoot and maybe a few starlings here and there.
 There seems to be alot of scope controversy here and this brings me to my 2nd descion, which scope to go with?
 Thanks in advance for your inputs.

[mjfa]

I have decided to purchase a Tech Force 99 Magnum and have it drop shipped to charlie the tuna for a tune. I am unsure whether to get the 177 or the 22 cal, probably will only target shoot and maybe a few starlings here and there.
There seems to be alot of scope controversy here and this brings me to my 2nd descion, which scope to go with?

Hi Coyote65,

For target shooting you'll be better served by a low-medium powered gun in .177 cal. than by a magnum springer that is better suited for hunting.  It is known that pellets at velocities over 900 fps loose stability on flight and it is better, accuracy wise, velocities between 560 to 900 fps in accordance to the shooting distance.  A mild springer would also allow for longer shooting sessions before shooter's fatigue sets on and would suffers much less of parts and scopes breakages.  For the money you intend to throw on a chinese TF99, tuning (a must on this gun) and a magnum rated scope (not magnum-proof), you may invest in something nicer and better suited for your purpose, like a  german R7/HW35 or Diana 26/28 with a quality medium rated scope, and get something that you may treasure for the rest of your life or sell it later for the same or more money than you paid for.  From the start you'll be enjoying the pride of owning and shooting a fine precision gun, that won't be prone to malfunctions and scopes wrecking, even without the need for a tune, while saving money.
http://www.weihrauch-sport.de/englisch/e_startseite/e_index.htm
http://www.diana-airguns.de/DIANA_Catalogue.pdf

[Coyote65]

Thanks for the reply mjfa,
 I'm working with a budget of 300 dollars or less, just trying to get the most for my money while at the same enter into the air rifle sport.
  After I start enjoying the sport I'll put back some coins for a more expensive rifle and start a collection.

[mjfa]

You're welcome Coyote65,

but look at the prices and do the math

TF99: $136 + tuning + magnum rated scope (expensive)

Diana 24: $137 + low recoil rated scope (economic)

RWS 94: $186 + medium recoil rated scope

Diana 34: $192 + medium recoil rated scope

HW 30:  $215 + low recoil rated scope (economic)

It's your money, it's your satisfaction, it's your choice.

Good luck and joy!

[Bowtied]

Coyote65,
Check this out.  Sounds like you're about in the same boat as me, looking around and trying to figure out what to get.  I'll at least pass on what I've learned and hopefully it'll help you out.  First, you mentioned the scope controversy.  I think you've probably read some of my threads where I asked about scope power and which one would be best for an airgun.  As mjfa said, if you buy the magnum springer, 99M for example, you will need a scope that can with stand the recoil.  One thing I did not know is that some of these scopes are AO which stands for adjustable objective.  This enables you to dial it down so it will focus at very close ranges which is really important for airguns.  I have also pondered .177 or .22 and I think I'll have to choose the .22.  From what I've found, this is the better of the two for taking small game.  I know I will most likely be killing paper but I don't like spending money twice and it will only be a matter of time until I'm out taking crows, rabbits and squirrels.  (Been a long time since I had some fried squirrel :wink:   )  And just to be clear on that one, rabbits and squirrels are good eatin' but don't worry, the crow shooting would simply be pest control.  Can't fathom eating a crow!!!
Here is what I HOPE to be ordering this time tomorrow...
http://www.compasseco.com/shop/products.html?maingroup=Tech%20Force%20Air%20Guns&secondgroup=Air%20Rifles
BE SURE, if you buy a Tech Force, to get it from these guys as it will come with an upgraded spring that is supposedly much better.  TF 99M .22 cal $135.96
http://www.compasseco.com/shop/products.html?maingroup=Optics&secondgroup=Tech%20Force  TF312X44AR Tech Force Air Rifle Scope. 3-12x44AR $79.95  This one is supposed to hold up pretty well and has the AO.  Not to mention you would have all the power you need for longer shots.
http://www.compasseco.com/shop/products.html?maingroup=Scope%20Mounts&secondgroup=Beeman  B5030M Beeman Deluxe Two-Piece Medium Scope Mount $34.95  These cost a buck or two more but are great quality (from what I've read).
Notice this is NOT buying it as a combo but instead you'd be buying all three pieces separately.  This is because most folks report that the Tech Force scope mounts that come in the combo are really cheap and fall apart.
Hope that helps.
Bowtied

[Bowtied]

Sorry, forgot to say that the above setup would run ya 250.86 bucks which is well within your 300.00 point.  But as mjfa said, it is all up to you!  If you think you'll hunt only paper and the occasional bird then the .177 could be the way to go.  I know there are a lot of manufacturers out there and it can be overwhelming!

[Coyote65]

Thanks for the input Bowtied,
 I have decided on the .22 cal and I agree with you on the scope and mount. Now that thats out of the way back to the gun issue.
 mjfa, I am looking for either side or underlever action eliminating several of my choices. I really like the HW 97 K especially in the blue grey laminated stock, but this means more dollars, still contemplating TF 99 VS HW 97 K.
 I have been using the review center for some more helpfull hints seems like a pretty good bunch of information there also here's the link.
http://www.reviewcentre.com/products9.html
 Thanks for all your input it's greatly appreciated.

[Bowtied]

Umm, are you talking about http://www.compasseco.com/shop/products.html?maingroup=Weihrauch&secondgroup=Air%20Rifles

That is an AWESOME looking rifle!  If you're considering that and the TF99M, that's probably like comparing apples and oranges.  Of course, I'm new at this and I am basing that on finish and price tag alone :shock:

[dave]

If you are willing to put up the cash for an HW97K, don't even bother looking at or comparing it with the TF99. That would be like comparing a Cadillac to a Yugo. The guns are priced accordingly too though. The TF with the inexpensive scope will set you back under $300,  plus what  ever repairs will be needed when the spring or seal fails, and they do fail often on these guns. Then theres the cost of a tune, and it will need a tune to be any sort of decent shooter.  The HW with a good scope and mount is going to cost you nearer to $800, but you won't need spend the money to get it tuned. These guns are well made and very reliable, chances are you'll shoot it a long time before theres any problems. The HW also has the Rekord trigger, probably the best design ever to be put on a sporting airgun. Its far and above the Chinese trigger.

[Coyote65]

After considering my budget of 300 or less I'm staying the course, save the HW 97 K for after I shoot awhile and get seriously into it. It's really easy to get caught up in the thrill of higher end guns.
 Still weighing my options for the best gun for my budget but the cal and scope situation has been solved, along with either side or under action, again thanks for everyones input, it was greatly appreciated.

[jeager106]

Avoid BSA scopes.
B been
S suckered
A again

I'd put a good scope on any springer. The best you can afford.
Later if you want to upgrade to a magnum springer you will have the scope and plenty of practice.

[Lawdog]

After considering my budget of 300 or less I'm staying the course, save the HW 97 K for after I shoot awhile and get seriously into it. It's really easy to get caught up in the thrill of higher end guns.
 Still weighing my options for the best gun for my budget but the cal and scope situation has been solved, along with either side or under action, again thanks for everyones input, it was greatly appreciated.

Just for information value only, the TF 99M is a clone of the HW 97.  Sure the HW 97 has a better trigger but the TF trigger will be very good to excellent after Charlie gets done with it.  Accuracy between the two is a toss up and power wise the edge goes to the TF99M.  Both shoot dime size groups at 25 yards.  Another thing is ANY springer rifle can benefit from a tune-up.  In fact ANY air gun(rifle, pistol - PCP, pump or springer) can benefit from a tune-up.

Now for another suggestion for a scope other than the Tech Force & BSA models.  Check out Leapers scopes at http://www.leapers.com/pages/airgun%20sport/airgun%20scope.htm.  I prefer the BKL 30mm Double Strap scope rings, model 301, for the Leapers scopes.  To view the BKL rings go to http://bkltech.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=BKL&Category_Code=300 to see the 300 series.  I have sent off an order of my own for a Leapers scope.  They are being recommended by such notable air gun hunters/shooters/authors as Jim Chapman, Randy Mitchell and Tom Gaylord.  If it good enough for these guys, it’s good enough for me.  Lawdog
 

[Coyote65]

After a week of searching pondering and discussing things here at GBO, I'm leaning towards this.
http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=596
 A little more than I wanted to pay but sounds like a good deal to me. Any input on this combo anyone? The only thing is it's not a side or underlever but I'm sure it'll be fine.

[dave]

The Diana 40 is ok, but if you want to stay closer to your $300 mark take a look at the Webley Xocet. The Xocet is a well balanced carbine, 7.5 pounds and only 38 " long. Its also made as a regular length rifle, 44" long. You can get them new for a bit over $200.

 http://www.compasseco.com/shop/products.html?maingroup=Webley%20Scott&secondgroup=Air%20Rifle

Quality is second to none, and they are excellent shooters. Mine makes near 14 ft/lbs in .22, and will shoot sub dime size groups at 30 yards. Drop in tune kits are available that remove all spring vibration, and the adjustable 2 stage trigger is good as is or can be easily improved in a few minutes with a Dremel and a polishing stone.

The scope pictured is a Simmons Wild Turkey Federation 4x32 shotgun scope, in a set of Beeman 2 piece rings. Its held up very well for several months now, and I've only had to make minor adjustments to it.

[mjfa]

RWS Diana 40 is an excelent choice!

[Lawdog]

After a week of searching pondering and discussing things here at GBO, I'm leaning towards this.
http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=596
 A little more than I wanted to pay but sounds like a good deal to me. Any input on this combo anyone? The only thing is it's not a side or underlever but I'm sure it'll be fine.

The reason I don't care for break barrels(even though I own a few) is they can/have been know to have "barrel droop".  Barrel droop can happen on any break barrel rifle, even high dollar models(I have seen it).  Sure it can be cured easily enough with adjustable mounts but it still can be a royal pain in the butt.  This and the fact that side cockers and under levers are noted for their accuracy is why I prefer under levers.  Lawdog
 

[mjfa]

Barrel droop is not a big issue, don't occur on every single break barrel, and is a matter of just using the appropriate scope mount.  There are more serious issues associated mainly with poor manufacturing and lack of quality control, which are common on chinese guns.  Have you ever know of a chinese match shooter competing with a national product?

[Lawdog]

Barrel droop is not a big issue, don't occur on every single break barrel, and is a matter of just using the appropriate scope mount.

I never said barrel droop was a big issue, I said it was the reason I don't care for break barrel rifles.  That and the fact that under lever and side cockers are more known for their accuracy.

There are more serious issues associated mainly with poor manufacturing and lack of quality control, which are common on chinese guns.

Not all Chinese air rifles are that way!  Just the same as not all Eurpoean air rifes are top quality products either.  There are a number of really cheaply manufactured(due to poor quality control) air guns coming out of Europe.  Gamo is a prime example of that.

Have you ever know of a chinese match shooter competing with a national product?

As a matter of fact I have.

We are proud of declaring: The Industry Brand that Shanghai air Gun Factory produces became a great attraction in the seventh Asian Games, where Chinese athletes won team championship in shooting sport item and 1 gold. They broke the records of the Asian Games. For several years, more and more shooter teams have used the Industry Brand air guns including air rifles and air pistols. These teams captured excellent achievements in domestic and overseas games. So far these athletes have broken the world shooting records 3 times and won 19 golds in all in national games and Asian games as well as the international games…

By the way, Shanghai Air Gun Factory is the manufacture of the Compasseco, Inc. Tech Force line of air guns.  Lawdog
 

[dave]

Theres a difference between competing and being competitive. As I recall, the Chinese medal winners and record holders use or used FWB and Anshutz guns. Theres no Industry Brand gun that I've ever seen that would be competitive in world class competition.

Break-barrel rifles led the pack at all competition levels for many years before the advent of the precharge and SSP rifles. The Walther LGs and the Diana recoilless guns were and still are as accurate as any side- or under-lever gun, more so than most too.

Yes, there are European guns that are not top quality, but those lower end guns at the least are comparable to the best that the Chinese have to offer. I have yet to see a Chinese made airgun with quality that would come close to the better Euro guns like HW, Diana, Webley, FWb, etc.

[mjfa]

As a matter of fact I have.

Quote:
We are proud of declaring: The Industry Brand that Shanghai air Gun Factory produces became a great attraction in the seventh Asian Games, where Chinese athletes won team championship in shooting sport item and 1 gold. They broke the records of the Asian Games. For several years, more and more shooter teams have used the Industry Brand air guns including air rifles and air pistols. These teams captured excellent achievements in domestic and overseas games. So far these athletes have broken the world shooting records 3 times and won 19 golds in all in national games and Asian games as well as the international games…


By the way, Shanghai Air Gun Factory is the manufacture of the Compasseco, Inc. Tech Force line of air guns. Lawdog

As is read in the above quote, it doesn't states anywhere that the chinese athletes won shooting Industry Brand airguns, just because they DON'T.  It says that the Industry Brand product became an attraction at the Asian games.  Here are the facts, see by yourself:

Olympic Games 2004 in Greece, Athens
http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/erfolge/meisterschaft.php?id=358&lang=e

http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy_f.html?cPageId=63

http://www.issf-shooting.org/update/calendar.asp?mode=ressheet&sheet=2004/oggre04&event=AR60&team=x&junior=x&gender=M&title=XXVIII._Olympic_Games,_Shooting_Sport_14_-_22_August_2004_-_Athens_,_GRE

http://www.issf-shooting.org/update/calendar.asp?mode=ressheet&sheet=2004/oggre04&event=AR40&team=x&junior=x&gender=W&title=XXVIII._Olympic_Games,_Shooting_Sport_14_-_22_August_2004_-_Athens_,_GRE


Asian Shooting Championships Kuala Lumpur 2004
http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/erfolge/meisterschaft.php?id=332&lang=e

http://www.issf-shooting.org/update/calendar.asp?mode=ressheet&sheet=2004/ascmas04&event=AR60&team=x&junior=x&gender=M&title=10th_Asian_Shooting_Championships_-_06-19_February_2004_-_Kuala_Lumpur_,_MAS


ISSF World Cup Shanghai 2002
http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/erfolge/meisterschaft.php?id=262&lang=e

http://www.issf-shooting.org/update/calendar.asp?mode=ressheet&sheet=2002/wcchn02&event=AR60&team=x&junior=x&gender=M&title=ISSF_World_Cup_in_all_events_-_Shanghai_,_CHN

http://www.issf-shooting.org/update/calendar.asp?mode=ressheet&sheet=2002/wcchn02&event=AR40&team=x&junior=x&gender=W&title=ISSF_World_Cup_in_all_events_-_Shanghai_,_CHN

[Lawdog]

mjfa,

Your question was;

Have you ever know of a chinese match shooter competing with a national product?

and the Aisan Games do qualify as such.  In the last games held 6828 athletes and official from 42 Aisan Countries, including five Central Asian countries newly independent from the former Soviet Union, and featuring 34 sports, broke the Beijing records and became the largest event ever in the history of the Asian Games.

Say and post what you will.  Tech Force rifles are a well made product and have been reported as such by many writers, shooters and hunters that have more insight into the industry than any on this forum.  Tom Gaylord, who is now a designer/technical advisor for Air Force(the company that makes the Talon and Condor PCP rifles), has tested a number of the Tech Force rifles and sings their praises.  As does Jim Chapman and Randy Mitchell.  I am sorry but I believe I will take the word and experience of these gentlemen instead.  Lawdog
 

[Coyote65]

I just ordered my gun today, got the RWS Diana 40 combo from Pyramyd Air
http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=596
It comes with the Leapers scope and Webley & Scott Mount, also ordered the Beeman Field Target Specials Pellets. Any other suggestions on Ammo?
  I think this will make a good starter rifle to wet my appetite in the world of Air guns, I Really Appreciate everyones Information and knowlege of these guns, without your help I would still be sitting here scratching my head and wondering what to do.
  I will keep posts here at GBO on how I fare with my purchase, I realy think this is a great forum lots of good people willing to share their knowlege, again thanks for everyones input.

[Lawdog]

I just ordered my gun today, got the RWS Diana 40 combo from Pyramyd Air
http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=596
It comes with the Leapers scope and Webley & Scott Mount, also ordered the Beeman Field Target Specials Pellets. Any other suggestions on Ammo?
  I think this will make a good starter rifle to wet my appetite in the world of Air guns, I Really Appreciate everyones Information and knowlege of these guns, without your help I would still be sitting here scratching my head and wondering what to do.
  I will keep posts here at GBO on how I fare with my purchase, I realy think this is a great forum lots of good people willing to share their knowlege, again thanks for everyones input.

Sounds good.  Let us know how you like it and how it works for you.  You might want to check out the Pellet Impact Test that is on http://home.hiwaay.net/~ispellan/PelletTest02.html to see the rsults of different pellets for hunting purposes.  Lawdog
 

[Coyote65]

Well Seems I cannot have the gun shipped to me ILLinois laws, any firearm over 700 fps must be shipped to FFL. I should have done my homework.
Pyramyd Air Cancelled my order. I'll have to find a someone with a FFL locally to get it for me. The only one in my small town wants $50.00 to take delivery of it.
 Now I'm a reasonable person and understand he should be compensated for his trouble but Dang.
 Now I'm considering a Beeman R9 Goldfinger, seems my local Gunshop the guy wanting to charge me $50.00 to take delivery of my original purchase is willing to let me have it for $400.00 in .177 and $425.00 in .20 Cal. Since my original purchase was going to be $350.00 and he was going to charge me $50.00, I figured I might as well purchase the R9 from him. I have scrounged up another $100.00.
From the research I've done this seems to be very nice rifle for the money, I'm leaning toward the .20 Cal. any input on which Cal. would be best?

[Lawdog]

Coyote65,

Actually $50.00 is usually pretty much standard as far as charging goes by FFL holders.  I know of a few that charge even more.  You got any relation that live in another state that could take delivery and ship it to you?  Lawdog
 

[Coyote65]

Lawdog,


  No realatives in other states, they are all here in illinois with the exception of distant realatives whom I only see at familly reunions, and really don't know them that well.

[mjfa]

I'm considering a Beeman R9 Goldfinger

Well, that would be an improvement over the RWS 40.  Both calibers would serve you well, but the .177 would be better suited for target shooting and there's plenty of pellet choices on that caliber also.

[Lawdog]

Coyote65,

From the research I've done this seems to be very nice rifle for the money, I'm leaning toward the .20 Cal. any input on which Cal. would be best?

The .20 caliber is often referred to as the perfect caliber for the hunter/shooter that wants the best of both worlds as far as hunting and target work is concerned.  Don’t worry about pellet choices either as there is more than enough pellet types to choose from in whatever caliber you choose.  I don’t worry about pellet availability as I order almost all of mine from Pyramyd Air.  Buy three and get a forth one free is hard to pass up and it’s even cheaper if you buy by the case.  Lawdog
 

[gmcman]

I know I'm jumping in late but I would seriously recommend the Bushnell Trophy 4-12X40. It has an adjustable objective for 10 meter shooting and is designed for airguns. I paid $160 and is worth every penny. Here's a pic of it on my HW-35.

[mjfa]

Hi gmcman,

That HW35 of yours is a beauty, I really like it!