30-06 or 7mm Mag

[nomosendero]

TexasNimrod
I see that the hunting you do is Deer & Hogs. I know the terrain around
Midland, but where do you hunt? I am asking you this because I did not
see anything about the distances you shoot. The great state of Texas
has a variety of terrain, vegetation, etc. & of course this has a bearing
on the discussion. The 7mm mag is better for long range hunting of
Deer/Antelope, but the 30-06 is as good or better for about everything
else. I was on a 7Mag kick for about 7 years (early & mid 80's) & I had
3 big 7's at that time. I decided the 30 cal. was better fo me & went to
308, 30-06 & 300 magnum & I like that much better. If for some reason
I could have only one medium bore rifle, I would rather have a 30-06
than a 7mm Mag but I would rather have a 300 Mag than either.
In fact if for some weird reason I had to, I could hunt the world over with
a .223, .300 Mag & a 416 Rigby.

[Ramrod]

In fact if for some weird reason I had to, I could hunt the world over with
a .223, .300 Mag & a 416 Rigby.

Great point. But my choices are a .223, .30-06, and .375 H&H. I will easily trade off 50 yards or so of max range, knowing that I can find ammo in any backwater town anywhere on the globe.

[kombi1976]

Great point. But my choices are a .223, .30-06, and .375 H&H. I will easily trade off 50 yards or so of max range, knowing that I can find ammo in any backwater town anywhere on the globe.

I think that in reality your ammo choices may well be limited more to .22lr, 7.62x39 and 12g if you speak of anywhere in the globe.
In Africa .375H&H is a likely easy find and 303 Brit is probably a close second but for all of those countries where things aren't really stable and if we think in a complete world sense the cartridges which suit the needs of the locals are the first 3.
There are more dodgy single barrel shotties and single shot .22lr's in under developed countries and the local thugs would be weilding AKs or AK derivatives I'd imagine.
.223 is a NATO round and 30-06 has become a Western world hunting round, too expensive.
I could be wrong.
.223 probably outsells any other ammo apart from .22lr in Australia but we're a First World country like you guys.
Start finding out specs for places like New Guinea and Malaysia and Chile and Nigeria and you'll start to get an idea.
Besides, I'd say those countries with serious problems probably sell more handgun rounds than rifle rounds.

[Ramrod]

I'd say those countries with serious problems probably sell more handgun rounds than rifle rounds.

What do you mean by problems? If you mean the government's inability to control the thinking of the general population, it appears to me that the usuall first step is to ban handguns, and handgun ammunition. :roll:
And I will stand by my rifle choices, most of the third world still likes western $ and even the smallest stores will always carry that ammo.

[nomosendero]

Yea, the 375 is a toss up for me with the 416, but the 416 is better for
the big stuff. But concerning the ammo, I carry my own & where allowed
you can send some ammo ahead just in case. And if they are too restrictive for that, I won't hunt there anyway!

[kombi1976]

What do you mean by problems? If you mean the government's inability to control the thinking of the general population, it appears to me that the usuall first step is to ban handguns, and handgun ammunition. :roll:
And I will stand by my rifle choices, most of the third world still likes western $ and even the smallest stores will always carry that ammo.

Heard of a Black Market?
Any outfitter in a "troubled" part of the globe who is worth his salt knows how to source ammo from "less legal sources".
So do the local thugs and those who own other firearms.
Since when has the law ever stopped anyone?
I maintain my point that demand creates supply and that the ammo needed most would be the easiest to get.
Sadly, it probably wouldn't mean .223 or .30-06, although if you're willing to pay and wait they could be got.
30-06 was the fave for the last 2 generations of Americans but a third world farmer, tribesman or mercenary has little care for what the last 2 generations of Americans used to put nice racks on their walls and fill their freezers.
They have more pressing matters on their minds.
Lives mainly.....their own or other peoples. :roll:

[Big Paulie]

Dear Folks,

  Here is my thought.  If you buy the 30-06, you have a great all around cartridge in regular factory loads.  But, if you want to step it up a bit, can't you just buy the factory Light Magnum or Hi-Energy  load for the 30-06, in say a 165 grain bullet, and virtually duplicate the performance of the 175 grain factory load of the 7 Mag?    Also, if you buy the Light Magnum or High Energy load for the 30-06 in the 180 grain bullet, it virtually duplicates the ballistics of the 300 H&H Magnum.  (I have personally chronoed and entire box, and it was within 25 feet per second of the 300 H&H factory load.)

   I think that in this instance, the availability of these specialty factory loads makes the all-around 30-06 even more of a super all around cartridge, and simply does away with the need for a 7 Mag.

[Lawdog]

When I was checking with different outfitters on possible Safari information I asked about ammo availability.  I told them the rifle battery we were planning on( for me the .300 & .375 Weatherby Magnums and the .416 Rigby - for the wife the .30-06 and .375 H&H) and was told not to worry about ammo.  Ammo for all of them were available most anywhere.  I was told that the .30-06 and the .375 H&H was the two most popular rifles that hunters bring with them for Safari’s.  Lawdog
 

[jro45]

Well I owned the 30/06 first, so I would vote for the 30/06

[TexasNimrod]

TexasNimrod
I see that the hunting you do is Deer & Hogs. I know the terrain around
Midland, but where do you hunt? I am asking you this because I did not
see anything about the distances you shoot. The great state of Texas
has a variety of terrain, vegetation, etc. & of course this has a bearing
on the discussion.

Nomosendero,
I have a deer lease in Terrell County off of Independence Creek.  I have taken a deer at over 400 yards with my 270 and handloaded 130 grain Hornady Spirepoints.  Most shots are less than 200 yards.  Draws and valleys with short sparse cover.
Hogs are hunted near San Angelo.  I use my 7x57 with handloaded 160 grain Speer Hot-Cores.  Most of the ranges are well less than 100 yards. Somewhat flat but mesquite and cedars are thick as ticks in a dog's ear.

[kombi1976]

To have this out I'm going to post a poll under a similar thread title.
Please vote on it.

[Ramrod]

kombi1976, make sure you tell us how you voted. After 4 posts on this thread, you still have not come down on one side or the other. "Neither" doesn't really answer the poster's question.

[kombi1976]

kombi1976, make sure you tell us how you voted. After 4 posts on this thread, you still have not come down on one side or the other. "Neither" doesn't really answer the poster's question.

Ouch!!
Do I have to?? :?
See, I'm really bored with 30 cal and could careless about 30-06.
And although I really like 7mm(actually anything metric is pretty cool) I'm of the opinion that magnums are for other people.
If you made me choose, and it'd probably be last ditch, I'd....sheesh, I can't believe I'm backing either of these!!  :x
O.k., I'd back the 7mm Rem, but don't think you can use that as a point for further debate 'cause it was only by coercion that I made a choice. :evil:
Happy now??!!  

[Ramrod]

Happy now??!!  

Yes!  :grin:

Given a choice between a 30-06 and a 7mm Mag, which caliber would you choose and why?

Even a flipping a coin would have gave the guy something!  

[handirifle]

Funny thing about the '06 not being a long range weapon, there are a lot of former Vietnamese soldiers that would disagree with you.  That was the caliber Carlos Hathcock killed them with, many out to 1000yds plus.

A man is not a deer, but I submit that it is not the weapons capabilities you are really discussing here, but rather ones own limitations in knowing the range to the target and the weapons trajectory well enough to hit it.

The 30-06 IS a long range weapon, with more than enough energy to kill any deer out to 1000yds, question is can you hit it?

[victorcharlie]

:-D I can't even see a deer at 1000 yards! :-D

[handirifle]

without bino's I doubt anyone else could either.  That is my point.  There was a recent article in Rifle Shooter (I think) about long range and how far is too far.  Point is most who think they need a longer range weapon, just need to practice more with what they have.

More energy or larger dia/heavier bullets is another issue altogether, but long range is VERY subjective.  Billy Dixon made a hit on a Souix indian at 1500yds with a 50-90.   Talk about understanding trajectory!

Like I said there are 93 (confirmed) former VC that Carlos Hathcock proved the 30-06 was more than capable in the right hands.

If one knows how to use a range finder, has practiced at very long range and knows the weapon, load and trajectory, then the 308 would do in an elk at 500+.  We have to just get out there and shoot more, that's all there is to it.

[victorcharlie]

I agree with you 100%.  Not meaning to demean anyone, but I question how many of those claimed 400+ yard shots on deer are verified?  Could it be that they're really 200 yard shots and the shooter just thinks the distance is greater than it really is?

[Ramrod]

I agree with you 100%.  Not meaning to demean anyone, but I question how many of those claimed 400+ yard shots on deer are verified?  Could it be that they're really 200 yard shots and the shooter just thinks the distance is greater than it really is?

In my experiance, the guys who shoot their deer at 400 yards are the same ones who catch 5 pound sunfish.  

[NONYA]

a 400 yard shot on deer and antelope are not as uncommon as you would have people believe here in Montana,seen it,done it,I have one i made on an antelope on video if you demand proof,I was 16 and it was well over 400,I held 5-6 feet over his back and hit him in the spine with a factory loaded 140 gr corelockt Im sure there are a few guys in here that can figure out the ballistics and give me an accurate estimate of the distance,it was a slight downhill shot my best guess was somewhere around 550-600,and we dont even have sunfish.

[Idaho_Hick]

Both are good, but I would take the '06 because I am a tightwad and belted brass is expensive.

I'm sure everyone else agrees that they are both good and as an interesting exercise, I would propose the following:

Big Paulie, could you give us a sound, reasonable and intelligent agrument for the 7mm mag, and Redhawk, how about the same for the '06?

You both seem to be experieced hunters with a thorough knowledge of ballistics, and if also honest, I'll bet you could both give an excellent defense for the cartridge you did not pick!

If so, you will help prove that both are very good.

[victorcharlie]

I'm sure everyone else agrees that they are both good and as an interesting exercise, I would propose the following:

Big Paulie, could you give us a sound, reasonable and intelligent agrument for the 7mm mag, and Redhawk, how about the same for the '06?

You both seem to be experieced hunters with a thorough knowledge of ballistics, and if also honest, I'll bet you could both give an excellent defense for the cartridge you did not pick!

If so, you will help prove that both are very good.

LMAO! :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D ]

[nomosendero]

TexasNimrod
It sounds like on your lease a 400 yard shot is very much the exception
& not the rule. The 30-06 of course will take care of a 400 yard shot if you
have a good rifle with the right bullet & if you are practiced & you know
the range. As handirifle correctly stated, a range finder is very important.
In fact myself & some friends that I hunt out West with have concluded
that we would rather have a range finder & a 30-06 than to hunt with a
magnum & no range finder. If you know the yardage & you have practiced
at those yardages, then 400 yards is not that drastic if you can dope the
wind. The range finder has made using std. rounds more feasible in some
situations for these reasons. Of course, this does not mean that you can't
carry a magnum & a range finder & I do when the situation dictates.
I feel under your hunting conditions that the 30-06 is a better choice. If
you start hunting out West alot you can add a 300 Mag. & then your 30-06
can become a backup for your Western hunts. I did this years ago & it is a good way to go. The 7Mag is a good Western rifle, but when the Elk are big & the wind howls give me a 300 with a 200 Accubond @ 3,000FPS any day!

[handirifle]

Even the 300 win mag and the old '06 are not that far apart when using factory ammo.
Here is Remingtons factory ballistics using premier accutip bullets (for long range)

LONG-RANGE² TRAJECTORY*
Cartridge Type Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
Premier AccuTip 165 AT BT 1.8 1.6 zero -3.2 -7.9 -22.8 -46.2
Premier AccuTip 180 AT BT 1.5 1.4 zero -2.7 -6.8 -19.6 -39.5

Top is the '06 with a 165gr and bottom is the 300.  They don't list a 165gr load.
The zero point is 200yds to make the number line up.

Here is the same comparing the 30-06 and 7 mm Mag Same bullet diff weights.   The seven has a pretty good advantage at 500yds but at 400 is only 5" better, but still better.

LONG-RANGE² TRAJECTORY*
Cartridge Type Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
Premier AccuTip 165 AT BT 1.8 1.6 zero -3.2 -7.9 -22.8 -46.2
Premier AccuTip 150 AT BT 1.3 1.2 zero -2.3 -5.9 -17.0 -34.1


Like I said, get to know your weapon!

[Redhawk1]

Idaho_Hick, I don't think the 30-06 needs me to indorse it's fine qualities and great ballistics. I just choose the 300 Win Mag over it for my taste. I have owned several 30-06's and have taken a lot of game with it. What I found myself doing was reloading it to the max to get the performance I wanted to achieve, then I decided to jump up to the 300 Win Mag to give me what I was looking for. You are correct the 30-06 is a very capable round and has taken many animals, but it is just not my choice.  

[nomosendero]

Actually, I look at the best reloads, because that is what I shoot & as you know the 300 would be much flatter comparing 165 to 165 in the 06 vs 300. It matters not what Rem. offers if you reload.

If you compare the very best loads for each cartridge, the 300 & 7mm Mag run very, very close in trajectory & trajectory is one thing, but wind drift & O yes energy is quite another & the 300 pulls away from the 7mm
easily. I loaded the 7mm Mags for many years & this is just reality.

Like you said no matter what you are shooting, know your load & the range. However, when your range finder focuses on something a few yards from your real target & the wind velocity is a little different than you thought, it is nice when you used the bigger bullet & it mattered as I
have seen.

[Idaho_Hick]

Thanks Redhawk, you are a good sport.  I wouldn't expect any work as a devil's advocate any time soon though!

[Redhawk1]

Thanks Redhawk, you are a good sport.  I wouldn't expect any work as a devil's advocate any time soon though!

Maybe I did not answer your purposed exercise like you wanted me to, but that was the best I could do.  :-D

[handirifle]

nomo
That is very true.  A good friend of mine hunts only with his 300 and he is very good with it (he knows his gun) he also reloads an I can tell you some of his loads I did NOT like shooting.  Much more recoil than I care to feel.

That was why I only compared factory loads.
As was stated before, CHOICE and personal preference is the real reason to choose the 300 over the '06.  If one can handle the recoil with no problem and it makes them more confident that the game will drop, then by all means get the 300.

Otherwise, as always, placement is ALWAYS number one priority!  Otherwaise good luck on deciding.

I am having trouble deciding on a new 280 barrel or an '06 barrel for my Ultra.  I already have an '06 Savage and a backup would be nice but the 280 sure sounds fun too! :?

[nomosendero]

handirifle
Actually, through actual use & in addition to the pouring over traj. charts/
windage charts & energy/remaining velocity #'s for many years, I had to
conclude that the difference between the 30-06 & 300 is considerable, as
Redhawk mentioned, enough so to decide to get one & now there is no
desire on my part to look back. However, for many people the performance difference would not be that noticeable in that their use does
not call for it or they could not utilize it & I understand that. Recoil is not
that big a deal in my gun as it is a Sendero & at this stage in my life the
weight of the gun does not concern me. I go by the performance of the
rifle/cartridge & what it can actually do & that gives me confidence, not
through some cozy emotional way of just feeling good about what I use!
But as I said before, the 300 is still used for those situations that I need it
but I still use std. rounds more & the 30-06 is one of them.

Concerning that Ultra, my big brother has a 280 in the handi & I like that
26" medium contour barrel. With the Horn. Lt. mag. 140SST, it is quite
impressive for fact. ammo at just under 3,100FPS!

Good Shooting!