Author Topic: losing " Club Gitmo "... (Read 2826 times)

ironglow · « **on:** August 07, 2005, 07:30:49 AM »

The libs have whined, cried in their dope, wept in their Latte and piddled in their Volvos so much....that the govt. has decided to ship out about 70% of the terrorists from Club Gitmo to prisons in places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kuwait , Egypt and other " home countries"..

Of course those prisons will not be quite like " The Club"..
The only clubs they are likely to see now will be rapping on their heads, fingers and shins during interrogations....

Do you suppose those terrorists will be sending any " thank you " notes to the crybaby libs ?

Qtip · « **Reply #1 on:** August 07, 2005, 10:21:33 AM »

That's the problem with liberals. They always know what is better for someone else.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!
To God Alone Be The Glory!

fe352v8 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 07, 2005, 11:25:19 AM »

The logic is incontrovertible, those who find the incarceration of people without charge, trial, or recourse to due process, and voice their objection to their governments engaging in the practice, are now responsible for the fate of these people when they are returned to their countries of origin. Even though, for many of these people, their country of origin is now a proxy or puppet state whose existence is totally reliant upon our governments continued military presence for their existence

Sounds like a Bible based position to me, thatÂ’s right Bush was a Pilot also.

Does being a conservative mean not taking responsibility for your actions, if you can blame a liberal?

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

Shorty · « **Reply #3 on:** August 07, 2005, 12:25:15 PM »

fe352v8,

"Due process" for those prisoners anywhere, anytime, any war would be a bullet in the back of the head. They are NOT common criminals, they are fanatical jihadists who might have had good intel to help us during a state of war.
Life is no joke but crap happens.

They could be glad that the first three weren't tossed out of a helicopter so that the fourth would tell all.

powderman · « **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2005, 01:00:52 PM »

Maybe hanoi jane will come to their rescue. Those Godless scum eat better than we do. POWDERMAN. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

fe352v8 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 07, 2005, 01:24:45 PM »

You know this, how?

Because the same administration which gives ever changing reasons for war said so, or do you posses special powers?

When we ignore our on own values and laws, and disregard or circumvent the intent of treaties such as the Geneva Convention, for the sake of expediency, are we still the same people?

Or, are we becoming that which we loathed, before we adopted our values and laws and entered into treaties, such as the Geneva Convention?

I find it strange that those who talk so much of values are so willing to foresake them. Those that forsake their values have forsaken themselves, they may be safer, but they are less than they were, and there values were but rhetoric.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

powderman · « **Reply #6 on:** August 07, 2005, 02:42:47 PM »

fe352v8. Who are you referring to??? I'm not concerened with the rights of those Godless scum. The only thing they are deprived of is the freedom to murder innocents. The ones who are still there are the hardliners, super radicals. They are so full of hatred that they will never be of any use to a civilized society. I hope they are happy in their new home, they won't be pampered anymore. Before it is over, they will welcome death. POWDERMAN. :x :x :x :x

fe352v8 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 07, 2005, 04:29:28 PM »

Again I would ask how do you know theses things?

What of your rights, what happens to POWDERMAN, if our government which is slowly disregarding the prohibition against denying our rights, as stated in the Bill of Rights, decides you are an enemy?

Next time you read the Bill of Rights, you may notice that it does not endow any rights; it prohibits the government from denying those rights, which we already possessed.

If you are willing to support the government in the incarceration, of individuals that have not been indicted nor convicted of a crime, and are denied due process, than you can have no objection if the government does the same to you.

Our government has held that these individuals are not prisoners of war. If they are not prisoners of war, and they were not committing an act of war, then they were committing a crime. If they were committing a crime, they fall under the justice system. However our government has held that they do not fall under the justice system, so they were not committing a crime.

Our government, by executive decree, created a new entity, the Â“enemy combatantÂ”. This new entity can be incarcerated indefinitely, need not be indicted, and can be denied due process. Further the determination of whether one is an Â“enemy combatantÂ” is at the sole discretion of the President, and is not limited to just non-citizens.

If this is something you have no problem with than let us change Â“Hail to the ChiefÂ” to Â“Heil to the ChiefÂ”.

The dangers from willing abandoning the rights protected by the Constitution, far out weigh the threat that any terrorist can bring to bear. Once we allow these rights to be denied, the very things that are the essence of this country, then America will exist in name only. If one endorses this Â“legal limboÂ”, then the terrorist have indeed won, because the things we held as Â“American valuesÂ” have been discarded. We may be safe from terrorists, but our own government is now free to feed even more ravenously upon the Bill of Rights, than it has in the past.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

ironglow · « **Reply #8 on:** August 07, 2005, 04:37:09 PM »

Libs...always making excuses for the terrorists...

jh45gun · « **Reply #9 on:** August 07, 2005, 04:56:34 PM »

Yep gets kinda sickening :shock:

big medicine · « **Reply #10 on:** August 07, 2005, 05:14:22 PM »

Yea due process is cutting someone's friggin head off, what do those aholes have to whin about at gitmo. GB was here. That was unnecessary.

fe352v8 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 07, 2005, 05:31:26 PM »

I am sorry you view it as Â“making excuses for terroristsÂ”. As somebody said, people get the government they deserve.

Let me leave you with the words of another lib

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."

Thomas Jefferson

Ah well, Heil to the Chief, it is.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #12 on:** August 07, 2005, 05:36:41 PM »

fe,you are in a abstruse Universe,you use the Geneva Convention with out knowing diddly ,we are not signers and the combatants don't fit the qualifications,read before you write from now on.

fe352v8 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 07, 2005, 06:55:44 PM »

We first signed, and the Senate ratified the treaty in 1882, we again signed and ratified it in 1907, 1929, and 1949. In 1977 when the convention was amended with protocols, relating to the protection of civilians during wartime and armed internal conflict within a nation, the senate did not ratify the amended convention.

The provisions of the 1949 convention are still applicable, however.

I have no disagreement with the detainees not meeting the requirements of a combatant under the 1949 convention.

However the creation of the classification Â“enemy combatantÂ”, by the administration, without foundation in US or international law, places those detained, and us in a nether world.

Seems strange that the nation that makes itsÂ’ school children recite, Â“with liberty and justice for allÂ”, five days a week is willing to abandon those ideals.

Yes I am petty, I regard the Bill of Rights as more that a piece of paper. Observing it can be dangerous to the individual, ignoring it can be fatal to the country.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

bullet maker · « **Reply #14 on:** August 08, 2005, 01:29:40 AM »

Hey fe352v8, what if these guys were let loose, and then they strapped a bomb on theirselves, and went to a Wal-mart, in your community, with your family inside shopping. How would your feel then?

GB struck again.

bullet maker

Mikey · « **Reply #15 on:** August 08, 2005, 01:45:27 AM »

Haven't there been a couple of instances in which one or two of the detainees, either at Gitmo or elsewhere, continued on with their terrorist activities after release?

Even if it is just one case, my question is why we listen to those who are concerned about the rights of terrorists and mass murderers. JMHO. Mikey.

magooch · « **Reply #16 on:** August 08, 2005, 03:44:08 AM »

There is a simple solution to future problems of this nature--take no prisoners. As far as winnowing down the population at Gitmo, I think we should drop some, or maybe all of the detainees off in their home countries. I believe a C-130 would serve quite well as a delivery vehicle. When I say drop them off, I mean that literally.

doc_kreipke · « **Reply #17 on:** August 08, 2005, 04:11:02 AM »

The spirit of the Geneva accords covers the behavior towards members of an enemy's regular armed forces. It is clear to the most casual observer that the terrorists that the liberals are weeping piteously about don't fit the bill by any stretch of the imagination. Enemy Iraqi regulars during the Gulf wars were treated by the book.

"Enemy combatant" may be an unprecendented legal term, but terrorists of varied nationalities acting in concert via the internet and cell phones (that is, technology provided by the very people they hate) to specifically kill civilians are an unprecedented breed of scum, too. The Western democracies can't afford the time spent in the usual UN hand-wringing fatuous posturing to come up with the international legal concepts.

Graybeard · « **Reply #18 on:** August 08, 2005, 04:14:18 AM »

Let's bring a little sanity back into this discussion guys.

It's darn seldom I find myself in agreement with Jon. So seldom in fact he might at times wonder if I'm out to get him. :eek: I'm not really Jon, just don't happen to agree with much you have to say. :lol:

But this time is different.

I really am VERY CONCERNED with the direction the folks in charge of our government at heading. It's a VERY DANGEROUS and slippery slope we're on folks. The terrorists have already won, the battle is over, they beat us.

They were more after changing our lives to take away our freedom and the good life we've had than of actually killing us off. In that they have already succeeded. All of the new laws enacted and the changes made to the way we're able to lead our daily lives has taken away the freedom we had and replaced it with fear and a willingness to let the government do anything they want in the hope it will add greater safety to our lives.

This is all wrong. The Ben Franklin quote applies here.

Now I don't care one whit about those foreigners who are enemies of our nation. Don't care all that much about how we treat them if they are NOT enemy soldiers. Now if they are we need to follow proper protocols so our soldiers will be treated the same. BUT just terrorists caught in the act who are not citizens I care not one whit about. BUT citizens? That's a whole nother matter. No matter their crime the US Constitution applies and they should be accorded full rights as citizens. Today too many are not. Tomorrow it could be you or I just as easily. Think on that for a moment.

powderman · « **Reply #19 on:** August 08, 2005, 04:26:49 AM »

fe. If we execute them, you and the other libs will scream bloody murder. If we send them home to the people they were murdering and they are beaten and tortured, you and the other libs will scream bloody murder. If we turn them loose, they will continue to murder innocents, then you and the other libbies will scream bloody murder. If we keep them in jail where they can't hurt anyone, you and the other libs will scream bloody murder. Whats the answer??? These are not rational human beings, they are a Godless bunch of SOBS bent on the destruction of all non muslims, and they will do anything to achieve that goal. They are satans disciples, not people to feel sorry for. POWDERMAN. :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #20 on:** August 08, 2005, 04:59:14 AM »

Since most are Homosexual,innoculate them with late stage AIDS and release them in Saudi Arabia,Eygpt and Syria.

fe352v8 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 08, 2005, 07:20:55 AM »

Not to belabor a point, but I do not feel sorry for them, I feel sorry for us. When the people of the country, that has demonstrated to the world, for over 200 years, the power of an open and free society, can be cowed into willing ceding, the very rights that make it an open and free society, in the belief that it will make them safe, the battle is lost.

Whether we detain, 600, 600,000, or 6,000,000, it only takes the one terrorist, who is willing to die. The security and safety you seek, by conceding rights, is a mirage.

A countryÂ’s greatest danger is from within. The barbarians did, not conquer the Roman Empire; they merely feed on the decaying carcass, of a state whose people no longer possessed that, which had made them Romans.

Fear of external danger, is the weapon that despots use to conquer their own people. Hitler appealed to fears of Bolsheviks, Jews, and national impotency, and the German people willing abandoned their constitutional government, for the security and strength he promised. They gained neither.

Our government is now trying to convince us, that by our willingly allowing the dilution of rights, we can achieve security from terrorism and become more potent in the fight against it. This will make us no more secure and, what will be left is a stronger government, ruling over an impotent people.

Since 9/11, when the war on terror began, around 6000 American civilians and military personnel have been killed. By contrast, over the same 4-year period, around 150,000 people died in traffic related accidents and around 50,000 died from intentional homicides committed by a firearm. If you are willing to cede your rights to save 6000 lives, are you also willing to cede the Second Amendment, and turn in your car to save 200,000 lives?

I am not attempting to diminish the barbarity of these terrorists or trivialize them by comparing them to traffic accidents and simple homicides, or suggest we should not confront and destroy terrorists. I am however trying to put the danger we face from terrorism in prospective. It is a far greater probability that one will die in a traffic accident or be the victim of an intentional homicide, then as the result of a terrorist act. Is your freedom worth it?

Once we begin allowing the erosion, of the prohibitions against the government, denying ANY of the rights, as enumerated in the Bill of Rights for the sake of security, or any for other reason, it is only a matter of time before we find ourselves with no rights.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

Leverdude · « **Reply #22 on:** August 08, 2005, 11:44:59 AM »

I'm going to agree with GB on all he said. The Franklin quote applies here in a big way. Our countries people are so full of hypocracy right now they cane see the forrest for the trees. We hear how all muslims are the enemy & then how we need to bring Iraq freedom. Arent they all muslims? We hear how we must all sacrafice to protect our freedom & way of life, yet the sacrifices the Gov asks us to take detract from our freedoms & way of life. We hear how we are involved in a war on terror & then those waging the war against us arent considered pow's when caught.

Now, I couldnt care less if they lined up the Gitmo guys & shot them but its time we start acting like a nation with morals & principals again. Nothing on this earth should be able to shake those morals & principals & certainly not a buncha rag tag camel jockeys with AK47's.

The war was right, fought for morals & principals we stand for, but its over.
Its IMHO not morally upstanding to continue our presence there if its causing unrest. It violates our own principals (or ones we usta have) in that we are a nation of free men who can do as they please untill they cross the line.

But thats not real important to me either, what scares me is the way folks who I think support the constitution seem to feel its ok to bend it if its for national security. Thats the way the libs think, but more & more I see folks who think they are conservitives willing to give up their freedom so someone might not be able to hurt them.

I might be different than everyone else in America or the world for that matter but I'd rather see terrorist attacks that an erosion of our constitution. I can maybe stop a islamic radical if he tries some funny buisness but theres no way I can get my rights restored once theyre gone.
I'm not too chiken to fight my own battles if need be & I dont think many here are either but I'm very scared of losing control of my Gov't.

Like GB said, we let this continue & they win.

Graybeard · « **Reply #23 on:** August 08, 2005, 12:11:31 PM »

Quote

Since most are Homosexual,innoculate them with late stage AIDS and release them in Saudi Arabia,Eygpt and Syria.

Now where other than out of the wild blue did this come from? Whom is the "most" being referred to? If you're saying muslims I suspect that a smaller percentage of them are than of those who claim Christian status. Not that I have any hard stats to back up either side of that argument tho. Just trying to find out why this was dropped into the discussion so I can decide how long it stays.

Qtip · « **Reply #24 on:** August 08, 2005, 12:17:41 PM »

fe352V8,

Well as said before these are not prisoners of war as the Geneva Convention defines them. They surely are not criminals in the same sense as the mafia or drug cartels. So just what are they in your opinion?
The administration has called them "enemy combatants". Are you upset with this term because it wasn't invented by the left? Or it's not PC? Just what do expect the gov. to do? Treat them like the Mafia? The Mafia doesn't fly planes into buildings or try to get WMD to annialate large portions of cities. You are obviously of the more liberal view, so I would like know what YOU would do.
Comparing people killed in auto accidents and murder in our civilian population "between CITIZENS" to terrorists who want to kill thousands is poppycock and a smokescreen at best.
As far as lose of freedom is concerned I think the high and mighty Democrats who are always screaming about rights have done more to destroy that and make gov. bigger than the conservatives have. This is a war(and make no mistake it is a war) unlike any other we have been in.
I like your "fear of external danger" theory leading to a despot taking over. Well during WWII we had a lot to fear of external danger. And during the Cold War too. Funny, I don't see a despot single-handedly running the show like Hitler did, do you?
And as far as our nation dying from within it is the liberals who have attacked our traditional values for decades and are driving the nails into the coffin of what our nation once was. Just look at who is trying to take our firearms freedoms away. Liberals hide under a rock of their own making and think that the rest of us should hide there too. All the elegant words and speeches of educated liberals can't hide what they are saying.
What always gets me is how some liberals love to quote some of our Founding Fathers when it suits them. Haven't heard many quotes though about God, our Judeo-Christian heritage etc. that they spoke of from the left though.
So just what do liberals think we should do? What is their solution to the "war on terrorism"? I hear tons of criticism and barely no solutions.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!
To God Alone Be The Glory!

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #25 on:** August 08, 2005, 12:18:06 PM »

It came from the GITMO Marined Officer Corp.

magooch · « **Reply #26 on:** August 09, 2005, 05:51:31 AM »

Hey Bill,
I have a buddy who was a marine in the first Gulf War and one of his duties was guarding Iraqi prisoners that were taken on the battle field. These were regular Iraqi troops who mostly just surrendered rather than fight, so they might be somewhat different than al Quida's, but they had a heck of a time keeping these buggers off each other.

big medicine · « **Reply #27 on:** August 09, 2005, 07:46:15 AM »

Sorry GB, I have no love loss for these people. I lost too many friends in Oct of 1983. There is still a lot of bitterness. But I do apologize for my comment. They have been treated better than any of our people.

Graybeard · « **Reply #28 on:** August 09, 2005, 10:47:29 AM »

Well I must admit to be quite surprised at that. Not that I try to know all that much about them really but I sure wouldn't have suspected that about them. For now I will leave it then.

big medicine · « **Reply #29 on:** August 09, 2005, 12:12:12 PM »

Guess after reading my last post it was not really that clear. What I ment by "these people" was the terrorist. Not directed at any of the folks here.