.35 Whelen - photos added

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

What powder could anyone recommend for loading a .35 Whelen for paper-patching?  I want to push a 200 grain pure lead bullet at around 2200 fps - should be an easy task for the gun.  But my understanding is that pp bullets prefer 100% load density.  Likely a slow powder of some sort.

[JBMauser]

I must admit, I have never read where PP prefers a full case.  I pulled out my Cast Bullets by Harris and he lists PP loads for the '06 with 2400 and 34gr. of 4895 which I know is the prefered powder for jacketed '06 bullets is not nearly 1/2 full I think.  I think you should look to jacketed data for the velocity you desire.  JB

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

huh, I learned the 100% load density thing right here on this forum.  I was having difficulty with a .357 mag load, until someone suggested loading full bore.  Instantly my groups shrank to something reasonable.  

But if someone else is having success with 1/2 density loads in a .30-06 ... I suppose I'll re-try it.

[JBMauser]

I did not wish to counter what you know, increased load density does improve accuracy but you must look first to jacketed data and compute the load for your desired speed.  The only powder I know of that will fill your case and give you 2200fps is one I am just starting to work with.  It is pulled 50cal powder.  WC860.  56gr of it in an 8mm gives under 2000 fps.  The load data for this powder is generly fill to the base of the neck and stuff the bullet in.  fire and shake a few grains of unburned powder out of the barrel and empty case and reload!  JB

[Cat Whisperer]

JB -

Is there a good local source for surplus powder around here?  (We're not too far apart as I'm in Pulaski.)

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Hey Catwhisperer,

I've got a brother in Pulaski!  He comes over a lot and we hit the shooting range together.

Nope, I don't know of any Mil. surplus powder sources.  I do a fair bit of travel for work, but it's to the west and south of Rapids. I sniffed out good places for powder and primers.  It's funny, one place will sell powder at a good deal, but the primers are spendy.  Another place, it's just the opposite.

Noticed your signature reference to wine.  Do you make choke cherry wine?  We've got a bumper crop of wild cherries here, and I've got to think of how you work around the pits.  The wild cherries are too small to run in a pitter, and but the pits are too big to ignore.

[JBMauser]

Cat Whisperer, I have not seen any local sales of pull down surp powder.  The powder I got was from another loader who had bought a lifetime supply and was lightening his inventory.  I will keep my eyes open for you.  JB

[Cat Whisperer]

Hey Catwhisperer,

I've got a brother in Pulaski!  He comes over a lot and we hit the shooting range together.

....

Noticed your signature reference to wine.  Do you make choke cherry wine?  We've got a bumper crop of wild cherries here, and I've got to think of how you work around the pits.  The wild cherries are too small to run in a pitter, and but the pits are too big to ignore.

If that's Pulaski, VIRGINA it's indeed a small world (my Rand McNally lists 21 of them)  where I live was Count Casmir Pulaski's home town before he was killed in our Revolutionary war.

My wine?  - bottled under the label of Chateau Barracks.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

ah!

I wasn't paying close attention when I saw the "JB" address.  I must have thought it was "BJ" which some people use for "Black Jaque" (among other conotations, ahem).  And I saw Pulaski, and just thought you were talking Wisconsin.  That's a ways away from Virginia.  The only thing close to Virginia is my flintlock, which is TVM's version of an Early Virginia.  :-)

Now to patchin' that .35 Whelen.

[lostid]

I wasn't paying close attention

Hey Black Jaque?,,,,,,,why dontch'"ay invite all these fellers over to the Trad.BP board? mabey we can all learn sumpthing a tween each other?
 sure would be easy,,sharins better thtan bickerin!!
 I mean if this ain't the same black jacque janaviac that posts on the trad bp thread I apologize to all,,gads'.
just look at the words man  

[Cat Whisperer]

BJ -  (not JB) -

Keep us posted on the 35 W. PP.

I have a Rem 700 in 35 W - unfortunately with a 1:16 twist which isn't enough to stabilize the 358009 (280gr).  So I'm going to build a mould - might as well be PP, aiming at 250gr or so.  I'd like to see what your results are.

Thanks,

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Will do.  This project is going slower than I'd like.  It just takes a pile of money to get a new caliber up and running.  It's not just the purchase of the gun, but I've gotta spend money to put the bbl on, spend money for sights, spend money for dies, powder, primers, and, finally, a mold.

Not that it's a problem, it just takes time to earn all that money.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Well it's been months.  Now I've finally got some experience with paper patching the Whelen.  Unfortunately I ran into a glitch that may be problematic.  I ordered a Mountain Mold, and owner Dan Lynch is limited to producing flat-point only molds.  Not that the flat point bothered me, but I learned that the flat point catches on the breech so loading from the magazine may be a problem.

On to the testing.  I did not get the opportunity to give it a real trial yet since I just dragged the Whelen along when my brother and my son went out for an informal plinking session at a place which lacked a decent benchrest.  So sitting down and resting my elbows on my knees I was able to produce a 1.6" four-shot group at 50 paces.  This was with 52 grains of Reloader 15 and a 275 grain paper patched bullet.

With 53.5 grains of Reloader 15 the group fell apart to about 5".

Then with 55 grains of RL-15 I shot the first one over a chronograph.  The chronograph read 2606 fps!!!!!

There was no obvious signs of excess pressure.  In fact the outside of the case neck seemed a little grubby which is usually a sign of low pressure.  However a .35 Whelen just ain't supposed to do that with a 275 grain bullet.  I put the gun away and pulled the rest of the bullets loaded over 55 grains of RL-15.  

This was a surprise to me as I figured the Whelen would be able to tolerate several grains more of RL-15.  At any rate, I don't need 2600 fps.  I was looking for something like 2200 fps.

[rockrat]

You might want to try 4831 in your whelen.  I have used it in my 30 cal. guns with great success.  Plan on it in my 358/35Whelen/35Win guns.  I couldn't load enough of it in my 30-06 with a 210gr cast bullet to give any problems and velocity was just above 2200fps. Will give you 100% loading density.  I load it to a slight compression of the powder.  Also use H50bmg in my 375 H&H with great success at nearly 2200fps.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Hey thanks I'll give it a try.

I recently tried RL-19 and that might hold some promise.  Pressures seemed very low, 54.5 grains of it only pushed the bullet along at 2085fps.  Soot around the case mouth, and primers were hardly flattened at all (looked like my .38 special loads).  Accuracy wasn't worth a darn.

But there's more room in the case yet.

Does anyone have any experience crimping paper patched bullets? Maybe I'll start a new thread for that.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

So far I've worked up to 57 grains of RL-19.  No signs of excess pressure.  Primers aren't even flattening.  Groups are getting better too.  One 3-shot group printed under 2" at 100 yards (peep sights).  That charge ran around 2150 fps.  These I seated out about 0.005" farther than previous ones, and I could still hear powder shaking in the case.  

They still penetrated 1/4" steel at 100 yards.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

more updates.

I tried 58 grains of RL-19.  Four out of five - shots a sub 2-inch group at 100 yards.  Didn't get to chronograph it.

I also tried 49.5 grains of RL-15 and got my best group ever with paperpatched bullets.  4 out of 5 shots under 1.5 inches at 100 yards.  Velocities were in the neighborhood of 2250 fps.  Not bad for a 280 grain  .35 Whelen.

If I can keep this up, I will have to consider this a great success.  I did precisely what I set out to do.  Take paper patch for a high-power rifle, but use a heavy-for-caliber bullet to reduce the velocity while maintaining all the power.

At 2250 fps the 280 grain bullet carries 3200 ft-lbs of KE.  That is not considered any "reduced load" for a .35 Whelen.  The only thing lacking would be the flat, laser-like trajectory.  But heck at 2250 that should be sufficient on elk somewhere past 200 yards.  If the 1.5 inch 100 yard group translates to a 3-inch group at 200 that would be plenty of forgiveness for field errors.  (Call me conservative, but I do not consider a paper plate-sized group the maximum tolerable group size.  I figure a smaller group is necessary to allow for problems that crop up in the field.)

[jhalcott]

so did the thing feed from the magazine? I heard that crimping PP bullets could cut the patch and ruin accuracy. Do you collect the patches to check for burn marks along the side of the bullet? I am trying to get a Whelen to shoot with the Lyman 250 grain mold with little success.

[jhalcott]

so did the thing feed from the magazine? I heard that crimping PP bullets could cut the patch and ruin accuracy. Do you collect the patches to check for burn marks along the side of the bullet? I am trying to get a Whelen to shoot with the Lyman 250 grain mold with little success.

[Cat Whisperer]

BJ -
  How about some pictures?

Thanks,
Tim K

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I've never posted photos before.  But I can take some and then figure out how to post 'em.

Yes, I got the feeding problem licked.  Using a channel lock pliers I removed the magazine box.  Bent the foremost inch of the lips upward, filed and brushed off any burrs from pliers and put the box back on.  This seems to have corrected the problem.  (It's a Savage 114)

I didn't crimp it.  Well, I bell the case mouth, then I set the seating die just low enough to return the mouth to the original diameter - or nearly so.  I found that my Lee die gives an uneven crimp.  I haven't decided whether I want to send it back or just get a factory crimp die.  I think the factory crimp die might be more suited to patching.   The normal crimp sort of rolls the mouth into the bullet causing the edge to cut into the patch.  I think the factory crimp die just squeezes the whole mouth in a collet.

If I had that Lyman 280 grain mold I would try patching some, then sizing them to .358".  Maybe then you'll be able to run the velocity up high enough to stabilize it with a 1:16" twist.  My Adam's and Benett barrel has a 1:14" twist.

Yes I do recover the patches.  From the best I can figure out the outer layer of paper gets nearly destroyed.  All I find of that is small pieces of confetti that are dark grey in color.  Often they are in long strips with the long edges clean and straight - indicating they were cut by the rifling.  The inner layer of paper remains in better condition.  It often is in one piece.  I can see rifling marks of some kind.  The marks are very thin brownish or grey lines going lengthwise along the patch.  However the marks are too thin to be either a land or a groove.  My hunch is that the marks represent a very small amount of gas blow-by right alongside the edge of the lands.  Maybe I can post some pics of those too.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I loaded up some 280 grain paper patched on top of 60 grains of RL-19.  Velocity was around 2270 fps.  No signs of excess pressure.  Charge was compressed.

I fiddled around with a new front sight more than I tried to test the group size.  Alas, my sights do not have enough travel to zero for the 280 paper patched bullets and also zero for 200 grain copper-clads.  I might have to get one of those fancy peep sights that requires gunsmithing, or go with a (gasp) scope.

I will say that with 60 grains of RL-19 I was hitting gallon and 1/2 gallon jugs at 100 yards with ease.  Upon examining the jugs, the bullet entry holes were located in roughly the same location - indicating that had I been shooting a paper target I would have gotten a satisfactory group size.

So I guess I found two good loads for my 280 grain paper patch bullet: 49.5 grains RL-15 and 60 grains RL-19.  From here I'll test the two loads for sensitivity to see if 0.10-grain variations affect accuracy (it would be nice if I could just scoop and dump without weighing each load).  Then I'll test to see how far that 280 grainer reaches. 

I'll get some photos here sooner or later.

[Nrut]

Very interesting thread Black Jaque....I came to this forum looking for information on PP for my 38-55, but when I  started reading this thread it occured to me that I can use the data that you are gathering for PP in my 9.3X62 which is only slightly larger in dia. than your 35 Whelen.....My question is do you use smooth bullets and are you casting with pure lead as you stated in your first post?....I just ordered a  300gr+ grooved cast bullet mold from NEI last Sat....If I could get the type of accuracy you are getting @ 2000fps I would be happy....Do you plan on hunting with your PP bullets?...
Thanks for sharing your experiences.....

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Nrut,

I have a smooth bullet.  Since I had to order the mold custom-made and a .350" bullet would be too small for regular cast bullet applications I just had the lube grooves omitted. 

However, you're in luck with that 9.3mm!  You can probably buy any .358 mold on the market and patch it up to .368".  If .368" won't chamber sizing it down to .366" would be a cinch. 

Don't worry about the lube grooves - you can patch a lube-grooved bullet just as well.

I use straight wheel-weight alloy, air cooled.  However, for your application, you might want to use plumbers lead.  See I'm guessing that your 300 gr NEI will cast .366 diameter bullets or greater.  Then you'll add another 0.010" of paper to that diameter.  That gets a might tight to squeeze into a chamber, let alone through the bore.

There's two ways around your dilemna.  The first one I know will work.  Use plumbers lead to cast your bullets.  Patch 'em, then size 'em to 9.3mm.  The soft lead will size easy enough that it won't destroy too many patches.  If you use wheel weight (WW) alloy you'll destroy most of the patches.

The second possibility is to cast your 300 grain bullets with WW alloy, then size 'em down to .358".  I don't know how practical this is - that's quite a squeeze - but then, you need not worry about schmeering the lube grooves shut.

I've patched bullets for my .357 magnum using .358" grooved molds.  I just used plumbers lead and sized 'em down after patching.

I haven't used plumbers lead in my .35 Whelen mainly because if I can get WW alloy to work I'd rather use that and save my pure lead for muzzle loaders.  Though it doesn't cost much more, pure lead scrap is just more difficult to come by.

Do I plan on hunting with my PP bullets?  Oh heck yeah!  That's my main purpose for getting into PP.  I have absolutely no interest in a bullet that is so hard it doesn't expand on game.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

How do you post photos?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Oh.  Never mind it appears to have worked.