Author Topic: A Interesting Concept  (Read 1396 times)

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Offline jh45gun

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« on: August 10, 2005, 06:54:48 PM »
Just suppose for a moment that the pioneers of archery in America Like Fred Bear and Pope and Young, Howard Hill, and others had picked up a crossbow instead of longbows and recurves and pushed the crossbow into prominence instead of the long bow.  Long bows and recurves were looked at as primitive and a weapon of assasins and of wild tribes so they were not accepted by the masses.  Still some played with them so now you have a vertical bow that has evolved by a certain few to modern standards as the perfect long bow with cables and cams and sights. Some are also recurves still but both are powerfull and capable of killing animals accuratly at a 100 yards. Still the crossbow shooters see it as a abomination and should not be allowed in the woods.  Most xbow shooters considers  the xbow the norm so they do not want you to use your preferred weapon the vertical bow. They make up excuses that the vertical  bow  as it is now called is a unfair weapon as it can shoot more arrows faster than a xbow and at farther distances. They also claim the vertical bow is used for poaching and that if vertical bows were allowed every one whould be using them and they would Kill all OUR deer. We do not want vertical bows in our woods as they are evil weapons.


Sounds Pretty darned  silly does'nt it yet xbow hunters and shooters hear the same tirade about xbows all the time.  It is no more the truth about xbows as it is about vertical bows but the bs still flows. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline 379 Peterbilt

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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2005, 12:24:49 AM »
Well said Jim

I believe if they tried to get a "stick" season passed, there would be a war against that too. You know, a 6' treebranch sharpened on one end like the cavemen used.

Even though it is a technologicaly unadvanced tool, they would come outta the woodwork opposed to such a season. I can hear the excuses now..."inhumane"..."ineffective"....bla bla bla

Of course I am not sugesting said season, but yall get my point.

Some folks just do not like change, for whatever reason.

Online Graybeard

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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2005, 04:28:12 AM »
Here in Bama you can already use those sharpened sticks to hunt deer and hogs. Spears are perfectly legal here.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2005, 05:58:51 AM »
Quote from: Eyesore
Well said Jim

I believe if they tried to get a "stick" season passed, there would be a war against that too. You know, a 6' treebranch sharpened on one end like the cavemen used.

Even though it is a technologicaly unadvanced tool, they would come outta the woodwork opposed to such a season. I can hear the excuses now..."inhumane"..."ineffective"....bla bla bla

Of course I am not sugesting said season, but yall get my point.

Some folks just do not like change, for whatever reason.


If Memory serves me right that was on the plate at the spring hearings too in WI and they voted it down. I think most thought it was silly heck the way I look at it if you can get that close more power to you.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2005, 06:22:47 AM »
I see where you're going but you're being unfair (go figure).  The opposition to xbows is because they require less skill and less physical training and are more lethal than handbows.  Thus the opposition.  Spears would be the other direction.  They would be impossibly hard to hunt with.  I say good luck to those trying.

Same thing goes for your "what if Pope and Young were xbowers?" line of logic.  I doubt many will object to a method being included that is harder to master than those already employed.  

Here in KS I've never heard a single complaint from rifle hunters about being grouped with the xbows.  That's because the xbows are the least deadly weapon available during rifle season.  Now to make them the most lethal weapon during bow season is a whole different issue.

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2005, 09:01:55 AM »
Now to make them the most lethal weapon during bow season is a whole different issue.


 :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :) What? Are you joking you have to be?  Xbows are no more lethal than bows are. They both shoot a arrow that kills by hemoraging and both shoot the same distance for effective range 0 to 40 yards is what most figure is the effective range of a bow or xbow some even closer than that as 40 is stretching it. To say a xbow is more lethal than a bow is down right ignorant. Again I take it you have been listening to the anti xbow folks again and their propaganda. The xbow has more  poundage than a vertical bow but also shoots a shorter arrow so it looses energy faster so in the end the xbow and vertical bow both equal about the same. You can figure a 150 to 165 pound xbow would equal a 65 to 70 pound vertical bow in performance.  Oh and why am I being unfair????????????????????? These are the same things exbow hunters and shooters hear from the anti xbow/bow crowd all the time. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2005, 09:06:06 AM »
Like some one posted at a other site if Xbows are not considered Archery by the anti xbow crowd, why do the catalogs put Xbows in their Archery sections? Duh maybe because they are archery products!  :)
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline jsteele

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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2005, 10:22:29 AM »
I do not understand how you can post this (and I noticed that you did on several websites) and still cry about bowhunters being divisive.

This is the most blatant attack on a group of hunters I have ever seen, the real peta included.  The author should be ashamed of himself for writing it, and you should be ashamed of yourself for posting it.

The content is not compelling, defensible, nor truthful – pure propaganda.



” You are either pro-hunting or anti-hunting. You can’t have it both ways. A pro-hunter supports ALL forms of hunting with ALL weapons! “


Really…

   We should support:   Canned hunting?  Road Hunting?  Night hunting?

   We should support:  Machine guns?  Land Mines?




”Their plan is simple and right out of the other PETA’s play book. Flood the arena with misstatements, ambiguous reporting and blatant untruths to whip up the ignorant and uninformed. Attack those who are drawn to the crossbow as a viable hunting option by classifying them as lazy, unethical, stupid, inferior slob-hunters. Attack and demonize the leadership of the industry with character assassination, wild emotional claims of gloom and doom and threats, while portraying themselves as the voice of the undivided multitude. Declare that the entire crossbow movement is the result of a carefully calculated plot hatched by evil, money-hungry crossbow manufacturers out to sacrifice our hunting heritage for a few million bucks. “


This is the pot calling the kettle black.  Let’s change a simple word or two and see what we come up with ….

Their plan is simple and right out of the other PETA’s play book. Flood the arena with misstatements, ambiguous reporting and blatant untruths to whip up the ignorant and uninformed. Attack those who oppose the crossbow by classifying them as elitist, greedy, and selfish. Attack and demonize the leadership of the sport (P&Y, Bowhunter orgs) with character assassination, wild emotional claims of gloom and doom and threats (diminishing hunters, attacks from animal rights groups, deer management problems), while portraying themselves as the voice of the undivided multitude. Declare that the entire crossbow opposition movement is the result of a carefully calculated plot hatched by evil, elitist, selfish antihunters out to keep the entire deer herd for themselves.


Alarmist threat #1:
 Most of us are aware that in the past decade, we have lost 1.7 million hunters and that each year, the median age of the hunter inches higher.

Show ANY data that would validate that xbows will bring in a substantial number of new to the sport hunters.  Doesn’t exist.  Most crossbow newbies are existing hunters, mostly existing gun hunters and some bow hunters crossing over.  That’s fine, but they are not new hunters.  What about older, younger, and women hunters?  See above.  Most currently hunt with a gun or bow anyway.

You will not gain back 1.7 million hunters by legalizing crossbows – you won’t disagree with that statement, will you?

In OH, xbow capitol of the world, hunter numbers have dropped at the nationwide rate even though the crossbow has been legal for 30 years.  What gives?


Alarmist threat #2:

We know that radical animal rights groups are organizing, merging and combining their purses as they zero in on hunters, targeting them for extinction.


Radical animal rights groups hate all hunters already.  Legalizing crossbows won’t change that.  


Alarmist threat #3:

We are aware of the urgent need to thin herds as serious management problems increase across this land.


 This is a joke on so many levels.  First, deer management issues are hardly universal.  New York, for example, is trying to grow the herd.  New England states have trouble maintaining steady herds.  You never hear about western state deer management problems.

The bigger joke is that the crossbow will solve deer management problems.  If 3 deer a day gun seasons in Alabama and buck a day gun season in South Carolina can’t control the deer population with gun seasons longer than most bow seasons, how will a crossbow help?

Deer are managed with guns, using bag limits and season length as management tools.  Period.  Bow hunting was never intended to be predominantly a management tool, and neither would crossbow hunting be one.  Every little bit helps, perhaps, but to imply that the crossbow would somehow be the salvation of deer management is ridiculous.

The biggest joke of all is the hypocrisy behind the statement.  Crossbow advocates state that crossbows will not be an impact on the resource in one breath, and then in the next they claim that legalizing crossbows will be a godsend for herd management.  They can’t both be true, so one must be a lie.  Which is it, boys?


If this thinking is representative of ALL crossbowers (and based on jh45gun’s crowing and others responses, it very well may be),  I have just lost all respect for crossbow users.

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2005, 10:22:51 AM »
They are more lethal for reasons other than performance.  They are more lethal because they require less time to master (Graybeard himself said this, although we all knew it anyway) and require a lower level of physical training to use (allowing less dedicated hunters to be more lethal) and finally they are more lethal because they require less movement and noise at the moment of truth.  

In short they are more lethal for reasons that don't have to do with projectile flight or accuracy.  This has nothing to do with what others have said.  It's simply true.

You're being unfair because you're twisting a valid argument into an invalid argument.  The difference between your claim and reality is obvious and you should be able to recognize it.  

You keep refering to claims about 100 yard shots and yada yada yada, but those points have not been made here.  Why not refute the claims that have been made here.  Start with my most recent claim, that xbows are more lethal because they require less skill and dedication to reach a similar amount of killing potential when compared with handbows.  You've said you were a handbow hunter, i suspect you know the truth.

Offline jsteele

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« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2005, 10:35:50 AM »
Quote from: jh45gun
Now to make them the most lethal weapon during bow season is a whole different issue.


Xbows are no more lethal than bows are. They both shoot a arrow that kills by hemoraging and both shoot the same distance for effective range 0 to 40 yards is what most figure is the effective range of a bow or xbow some even closer than that as 40 is stretching it. To say a xbow is more lethal than a bow is down right ignorant.





The xbow has more  poundage than a vertical bow but also shoots a shorter arrow so it looses energy faster so in the end the xbow and vertical bow both equal about the same.



In the first instance, I would agree to a point.  The capability of the weapons are similar.  But, and its a big but, the capabilities of the weapons in the hands of average shooters are not.

I have bowhunted for nearly 20 years, and I wouldn't take any 40 yard shots.  But I read all the time about xbow newbies shooting 4" groups at 60 yards.  You should come clean, dude...xbows are superior weapons.

Second instance -

You must have absolutely NO knowledge of physics, whatsoever.

The shorter arrow is a third or fourth order impact on the velocity of an arrow or bolt.  This "fact" is highly over-touted by procrossbow guys, and it is flat wrong.

Crossbow exit velocities can near 350 fps, most are well over 300 fps, with bolts that are equivalent in weight to typical hunting arrows.  This means a) they have HEAPS more KE to begin with and b) they have HEAPS more KE, velocity, penetrating power, and range at any point downfield than typical hunting arrows.

Don't believe me?  Go to your local community college and ask a physics professor.  Seek the truth.  

In other words, don't believe everything you read on an Excalibur or 10 pt website.

Online Graybeard

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« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2005, 11:26:08 AM »
I'm really getting SICK of this. END IT NOW!

If you're anti crossbow that's fine. BUT take the message elsewhere. I've told you already the Humor and Off Topics Discussion Forum is acceptable as is the Pot Bellied Stove Forum or the Politics and Second Amendment Forum.

But arguing on the Crossbow Forum against use of them is NOT acceptable. Folks I don't like having to repeat myself and this aint' the first time I've said it. It best be the last time I need to say it.


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Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2005, 11:47:42 AM »
I agree with GB, unfortunately these incendiary posts keep showing up here.  If one starts a post with this debate in mind, shouldn't it be their responsibility to get it in the right forum?  I said this before when the threads were locked.

I'm not anti-xbow either.  I've shot them, they're fun.  I'm only against xbows being included during bow season.  That's it.

Offline jsteele

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« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2005, 12:27:01 PM »
Quote from: Graybeard
I'm really getting SICK of this. END IT NOW!

If you're anti crossbow that's fine. BUT take the message elsewhere. I've told you already the Humor and Off Topics Discussion Forum is acceptable as is the Pot Bellied Stove Forum or the Politics and Second Amendment Forum.

But arguing on the Crossbow Forum against use of them is NOT acceptable. Folks I don't like having to repeat myself and this aint' the first time I've said it. It best be the last time I need to say it.


Graybeard - understood.

Will you prevent bowhunter bashing on this forum as well?  The post that your moderator, jh45gun, put up earlier is way over the top.

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2005, 12:47:47 PM »
Before this gets ended GB is right this is a xbow site so why would I not stick up for them against you two. JSteel evidently you never shot a xbow at 20 yards they are right on if sighted in at 20 at 40 they may drop from a foot to darn near 20 inches depending on the xbow while a bow may drop about half of what a xbow does in not less depending on how flat it shoots that with your physices tells me the xbow looses energy faster at longer distances. The post I posted that was a what if post is no different that what we hear about xbows all the time.  Lethal is the end result of what it does to the animal not that it looks like a dangerous weapon.  A pass through is a pass through no matter what bow you did it with and like some shots you may not get a passthrough depending on where you hit the animal.   You know I have gotten this before here on different subjects that some of the members here think just because we are moderators here we should not have a voice or a opinion and if we do we are abusing our power?????????? Well I think we should be able to say what we want to say as long as we do not break GB's Rules.  Bottom line is if there is any alarmist threats it is not coming from the xbowers all they want is to be able to use their weapon of choice. If they do make a post like I did or the one I reposted it is to show how foolish the bow hunters sound. All we want is to have a equal chance which should be allowed to every one who wants to hunt with a weapon of their choice which is in the boundries of hunting saying using land mines ect is going over board and foolish Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline jsteele

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« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2005, 01:22:10 PM »
Arrows drop from bows, too.  You should pay attention in science class.  That is why you need multiple pins with a bow.

Fact is, if an arrow and a bolt of equal weight leave the rest/deck at the same velocity, they will drop the same.  The shorter length means zip out to about 50-60 yds or so.

Much more dominant is the launch velocity.  The average crossbow in the cabelas catolog today has an advertised velocity of 320 fps.  The average bow has an IBO velocity of 295 fps.  (IBO arrows are significantly lighter than crossbow bolts, making the difference even starker.)

In this situation, the crossbow will shoot farther and flatter, and no amount of whining will change those physical facts.

PS - I don't see how this can be considered crossbow bashing.  It is a simple science lesson.

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2005, 02:27:42 PM »
Quote
Bottom line is if there is any alarmist threats it is not coming from the xbowers all they want is to be able to use their weapon of choice.


Nope, once again, a mischaracterization.  What xbow hunters want is to use their weapon of choice during bow season.  

I've said it other places, including my most recent post, I have no object to xbows... I have an objection to including them in bow season.

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2005, 05:18:15 PM »
I do not care how you put it a bow with a longer arrow will shoot farther and flatter then a xbow with less drop. I do not care what your therory says it is a fact and I have shot bows for years and now a xbow so I know of what I speak with expirience.  The fact is xbows use shorter arrows so they do not stack up as the same as a bow arrow. My xbows shoot a 16 inch bolt others shoot 20 the longest is 22 that is still shorter than most guys shoot unless they use a overdraw and even then I would be the arrows out of a bow are longer meaning they are heavier and balanced differently. Of course arrows drop from a bow too but not as drastically as a xbow. Since most state seasons are called Archery seasons and that a xbow is a archery weapon it should be allowed period! I really do not know what you two are so afraid of??????? Some one else going to shoot YOUR deer? Archery season should be for anyone who wants to hunt it with any type of bow as long as it meets state regulations on Min poundage, arrows and broadheads used ect.  No matter how much we argue the fact is xbows are becoming more popular and you bow hunters will not stop that. It may take a while but they will evently be accepted as once compounds were. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2005, 05:51:21 PM »
Gravity pulls on every object at 9.8 m/s^2.  The "drop" is a factor of time at an equal distance.  An object going slower will drop more at the same distance.  Intuitively you know this because a .300 win mag with 180 gr bullet will drop less than a 180 gr bullet out of 30-06.  Why?  The velocity of the .300 gets the bullet to the given distance faster, thus giving gravity less time to pull the bullet downward.

If an xbow bolt is shot at a higher velocity than an arrow, it will drop less.  It's not a debate, it's a fact.  If you don't believe me I'll work the actual numbers to prove it, but that's a waste of everyone's time.

Offline 379 Peterbilt

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« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2005, 06:01:42 PM »
I personaly have enjoyed the xbow/anti xbow topics. I myself saw these threads as good 'ole fassion debate. We are all hunters who most likely agree on many, many issues, just not this one. I am also glad that Jim unlocked those other threads so as to let everyones opinion be heard, and or answer follow-up questions. Nice move.

For the record, I would like to state that I am glad that dukkillr and jsteele entered this debate. Some will see those threads as a pissing match, but I myself saw it as purely a great mind stimulating debate. I am glad to be a part of said disscusions, as I have learned many things. And no hard feelings whatsoever.

Graybeard says we oughta let 'er die. Perhaps he is right, as none of us will likely ever persuade one other into the others thinking.

 Nothing but respect, fellow hunters, and thanks for the bantor!!

Damn good hunting to ya all !!

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2005, 06:26:23 PM »
I ask you to do two things One go to any other xbow site and ask them if xbow arrows drop faster than them shot out of bows then post the link so we all can read it here. The Excaliber site is a good one Maybe other xbow shooters can convince you of the facts number two shoot a xbow and see how the arrow drops compared to a bow at 40 yards if the xbow and bow are sighted in at 20. See and hear for your self from others and then post the links. I bet every xbow shooter will say the xbow arrows drop faster than those shot out of a vertical bow.
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Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2005, 07:14:00 PM »
Do you not understand physics?  I don't care if 999/1000 people disagree, the law of gravity is not open for debate.  If you don't believe it you've got issues that go well beyond xbows vs handbows.

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« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2005, 03:55:34 AM »
To learn from your mistakes, first you must realize you made a mistake.
Digger

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2005, 06:16:01 AM »
Arrow Performance Chart

225 FPS

(Figures are assuming a 400 grain arrow @ 225 fps, 20 yards sight-in)

 Xbow
 
Range        ( yards)
 Arrowdrop   (inches)
 Terminal Velocity         (FPS)
 Kinetic Energy         (ft. lb.)
 
10 3.01 220.42 43
20 0 215.93 41
30 -10.48 211.52 40
40 -28.77 207.21 38
 
50 -55.24 202.98 37

now I know my bow if sighted in for 20 yards did not drop almost 2.5 feet in twenty yards. If you can find a chart for drop with bows post it so we can compare I looked for one and they do not show it. Considering they do for xbows tells me that drop is more of a problem with a xbow.
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Online Graybeard

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« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2005, 07:46:58 AM »
Dukkiler your theory would be correct in a vaccum but we don't live in a vaccum do we? Air resistance plays into it. Short fat projectiles like bolts and big bore bullets are acted on more by the resistance of air and tend to slow down faster. In bullets we compare the BC or ballistic coefficient of bullets to determine which drop faster. With arrows we have no such neat numbers to rely on.

The longer and heavier arrows carry their velocity better and are acted on less by air.

Now I said this ends and end it does. It's locked. DROP IT.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!