Author Topic: 45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????  (Read 4007 times)

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Offline stuffit

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sights?
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2005, 04:27:58 AM »
I reckon I'll check on what the sight stipulations are.  Do any of you MS guys know?  I'd suspect that only iron sights are allowed.   Got a scope on the BC right now   :lol:
 :wink:
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Offline justannie2

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2005, 04:33:44 AM »
Jeffery8mm, I'm in MS and, looking at this years regulations, I'm seeing nothing about using cartridges.... Regs still state the usual about black powder and minimum of a 38 caliber loaded with a single ball or slug ... If you can find some link to that info you heard I'd appreciate it.

The one new thing they do say is crossbows will be allowed this year, nothing new on muzzle loading though.

http://www.mdwfp.com/Level2/Wildlife/hunting_regs.asp#PRIMITIVE%20WEAPONS

Offline quickdtoo

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2005, 05:34:28 AM »
Here it is, in blue and white...

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10913

Tim
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Offline stuffit

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forum post
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2005, 06:33:11 AM »
Thanks for the link Quick, but, while the poster is a "moderater" who, I'm sure knows what he is about, it would be gratifying to either locate the information on the MS wildlife official site or, at least, to know if he's a MS Game & Fish representative.  No disrespect to anyone posting this information intended.  I am a resident, and if I go to hunting, I want to be "CERTAIN" sure of the laws governing the hunt.
 :wink:
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Offline Jeffery8mm

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2005, 06:41:56 AM »
I will call monday and let the board know the answer from the State!!
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Offline Longcruise

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2005, 07:28:16 AM »
Quote
It doesn't matter which side of the fence your on...some folks hate anything modern...others have to have the latest gizmo to make their hunts easier...but...if your going to make a primative anything season...then we all should be using hand napped flint spears...and leave the modern weapons at home...not to mention all of the other modern things...like gortex thisulate rubber...steel...ect...ect...ect...see where this can go...if we let it..


Mac, you infered a number of things into my statements that just weren't there!

It's not about being on any side of a fence.  I'm not dragging up the old mod vs trad argument.  I'm not speaking as a re-enactor or buckskinner.  I'm neither of those things.  And there is no mention of gore-tex or spears either.

What I'm adressing is the spirit of the hunt and the spirit of the regulations.  They were established to allow certain types of weapons and were never about the other things you mentioned.  The spirit of these seasons and the use of the weapons they were originally intended for never needed to be defended until the purveyors of the "easy way" convinced some hunters that they were necessary in order for them to take advantage of the timing or less crowding of the special seasons.  That makes the purveyors and the makers of the modern stuff nothing but opportunists.  So who is doing the "dividing" in that regard?

Ultimately, when these special seasons go away because the spirit of the season is degraded to the point of not being recognizable, then we'll just be back to square one and the guys like myself who like to hunt with historical type of bp guns will still be out there using them.  The plastic in-line ml guns will collect dust in closets.

It's not about being a "purist" either.  I hunt with modern rifles quite often and have more of them than my CEO can ever know about. :)   It's just about being "in the spirit" as far as I'm concerned.

Quote
because this is exactly what some nearsighted holier than thou purist would have you do...fight each other...and that my friends is something none of us can afford to do..


There will always be differences among the hunting community.  I for one will not simply and automatically stand together with some of our compatriots.  There are things that can be justly criticised between us as a group and on occasion I've found myself siding against some members of the community and even voting against them.  I'll do it again if it's appropriate.

The two biggest threats to, and compromisers of, our hunting traditions today are outfitters and equipment manufacturers.  In some western states, Wyoming comes to mind, a non-resident hunter is not permitted to hunt on public land if it is a designated "wilderness area" without engaging a licensed guide/outfitter.  The supposed rationale for that is to "protect" those hunters from harm that might befall them if they hunted in those places themselves.  The real agenda of course is to force them into the hands of greedy outfitters who are responsible for the regulation being implemented.

In Arizona we see a large outfitter trying to force the sale of more non-resident licenses by the state in order to force more clients into there camps.  The rationale being that public land should allow any number of US citizens to hunt on it just because it's federally administered land.  That's the rationale of course, but it ignores the reality that first off, not all hunting takes place on public land and also that the wildlife that is being hunted is managed (at great expense) by the state.  So, it's not the land that is off limits, it's the wildlife that the feds do not manage.  Who wins with this twisted thinking?  The outfitters who brought the suit against the state of AZ.  How divisive is that??  Would you like to see the feds managing wildlife exclusively?  Who will manage the wildlife on the private lands?  The anti hunting groups would love to have hunting and wildlife management centralized in DC.  One point of attack and a much softer target!!  Do the outfitters who are counting their fees in advance give a dang?  Nope!  Should we all stand together with them?  Do so if you wish, but not me and luckily not a many other sportsmen as well.

Hanging together and working together toward common recognized goods is what we need to do in order to protect the hunting tradition in this country.  But standing together blindly without consideration for higher values than commonality just takes away our integrity both as individuals and a group.

So, ya see, I agree with Quick too when he says "...it's not good for hunters/shooters to pit the traditional against the modern in a squabble over what's right and what's wrong."  But, I'm not pitting trad vs modern against each other.  Nor am I comparing them in terms of good and bad.  If I was, I'd never pick up my Tikka or Savage, or Mossberg or......(gotta slow down here.  Who knows who might be reading :) ) and go forth to gather meat.  

What I'm saying is that these ml seasons have a history and intent in their establishment and they should be limited to that in terms of the weaponry allowed.  Respecting that is part of respecting a part of our mutual hunting tradition as well as your fellow hunters.  Does that just maybe sound a little bit like sticking together??

Offline quickdtoo

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2005, 09:19:42 AM »
Quote from: stuffit
Thanks for the link Quick, but, while the poster is a "moderater" who, I'm sure knows what he is about, it would be gratifying to either locate the information on the MS wildlife official site or, at least, to know if he's a MS Game & Fish representative.  No disrespect to anyone posting this information intended.  I am a resident, and if I go to hunting, I want to be "CERTAIN" sure of the laws governing the hunt.
 :wink:


Ahem.....that IS the state wildlife web site!!! They have their own forum....look at the home page.

http://www.mdwfp.com/default.asp

Tim
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Offline Mac11700

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2005, 10:03:47 AM »
Loncruise:
 
I am not inferring anything into your statement...but agree whole heartedly with this..
Quote

What I'm adressing is the spirit of the hunt and the spirit of the regulations.

 
I can't address your needs out west...they are far different from what we have back here...but I can say...arguing over the word primitive...in any hunting regulations that the states set forth is exactly what those who don't want us hunting in the first place wants...it is this tactic to which I refer... the divide and conqure approach is one they use...if your own ideas won't allow you to stand up shoulder to shoulder with someone else because of what he hunts withs...or advocates hunting with...I feel sorry for you...
 
If the outfitters and sporting industry has that much influence on who is making the regulations in your state...then it is up to the citizens of that state to correct it...before it goes any further...

Mac
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Offline stuffit

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at the risk of belaboring the question.....
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2005, 10:40:58 AM »
Come on now, Quick.    With all due respect to you and everyone else, the notice is in a forum, for goodness sake, of which I am a member and also lots of other folks, not even residents of the state.  If you know the original poster on the state forum personally, please share it with us.  Point is (and I'd think that it would be obvious), is while it is a "forum" on the MS W&F site, it could be posted by anyone  who is a member and been designated a moderator.  That does not, as far as I can tell, give it official status.  I live here.  Even at my stage of senility, I know its the state site,  but  the forum isn't the official word.  Seems to me that you're missing the point in my other post.    I cast no aspersions on anyones veracity or credibility.  I simply want to know the source of the information on the post.  (ie from whom or on whose authority?)  Yes, it's on a post on a forum on the MS Fish and Game Site.   Sooo????     There is a place for the current regulations and the information on the post is not up there,  yet....  anyway.  
 :wink:
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Offline quickdtoo

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2005, 11:09:09 AM »
If it's like most other state agencies, the special notice that is posted as a sticky on the state run forum on the state wildlife agency's web site by a moderator of the whitetail forum and locked by the posting moderator..... it's not written in the regs yet. Our regs are only published once a year, any changes are posted on the state web site.....

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10913

A call or internal email will answer your question...

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Offline Longcruise

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2005, 11:49:19 AM »
Quote
but I can say...arguing over the word primitive...in any hunting regulations that the states set forth is exactly what those who don't want us hunting in the first place wants...it is this tactic to which I refer... the divide and conqure approach is one they use..


We have had lively debate both public and private between hunters, hunters and the game commission and anti-hunting members of the community with both hunters and the commission and there has never been any attempt at divide and conqueur.

The stand together or be divided and conquoerd seems to come mostly from those who are more interested in $bucks than bucks. :grin:

Quote
if your own ideas won't allow you to stand up shoulder to shoulder with someone else because of what he hunts withs...or advocates hunting with...I feel sorry for you...


You must be a caereless reader, cause if you read carefully you will find that nowhere do I have issue with what others hunt with.  It's about  when they hunt with it.

Offline Mac11700

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2005, 12:30:18 PM »
Quote from: Longcruise
Quote
but I can say...arguing over the word primitive...in any hunting regulations that the states set forth is exactly what those who don't want us hunting in the first place wants...it is this tactic to which I refer... the divide and conqure approach is one they use..

 
We have had lively debate both public and private between hunters, hunters and the game commission and anti-hunting members of the community with both hunters and the commission and there has never been any attempt at divide and conquer.
 
The stand together or be divided and conquered seems to come mostly from those who are more interested in $bucks than bucks. :grin:  
 
Quote
if your own ideas won't allow you to stand up shoulder to shoulder with someone else because of what he hunts withs...or advocates hunting with...I feel sorry for you...

 
You must be a careless reader, cause if you read carefully you will find that nowhere do I have issue with what others hunt with.  It's about  when they hunt with it.

 
Ok...lets settle this down a-bit...shall we...
 
1...the folks who are trying to divide us...isn't about our elected representatives...state workers...municipal workers..or the likes...it is those who's sole ambition is to get ALL hunting stopped and those who's "special interest" is at stake...all you have to do...is to look at some of the resolutions and bills before Congress and the Senate to see who I am speaking...and all you have to do is come here and see them in actions...whenever any hunting bills are brought up...even those that have been enacted to reduce the urban deer population..the other folks who's crying the loudest...is those purist...who don't want to hunt during centerfire season...
 
 
 
Quote
What I'm adressing is the spirit of the hunt and the spirit of the regulations. They were established to allow certain types of weapons and were never about the other things you mentioned.
...would this not reflect what they hunt with?...If not..I apologize...for taking it incorrectly..
 
I really don't see why there has to be "separate" seasons...if the state is using this hunt as deer management tool...then the choice of weapon should be up to the hunter...not the state...or the Feds...Why is it that preferential treatment has to be given to these type weapons in the first place? I should be the one who decides which rifle I use...and when...after all...it's my tax dollars too...that is paying for all of this...

Mac
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Offline slayer

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2005, 03:32:44 PM »
I`ll tell you how weird PA is about our early muzzleloader season, you can use any kind of muzzleloader from .44 cal and up for antlerless deer only, but here is the kicker, Crossbows are allowed in the same season-ahh that`s weird :) Jack.

Offline JPH45

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2005, 05:53:39 PM »
If Alabama allowed me to hunt with a single shot of 38 caliber or larger during our 2 week muzzle loader season....I'd take 'em up on the opportunity every chance I got till the state changed its mind. I don't use muzzle loaders and am not interested in them either. Muzzle loaders are in my humble opinion, the perfect example of why we invented the centerfire cartridge and guns to shoot them in. I also notice that within 20 years of the invention of the cartridge gun, all those muzzle loader shooters had traded up. Muzzle loading remained alive, just barely, and was revived beginning in the 50's by a few die hards. But I wonder how many who have a smokepole, regardless of design type, would have it were it not for expanded hunting seasons.

Here, the muzzle loader season comes during the last two weeks of firearms season. It runs concurrent with centerfire rifle, and is a simple extension of the doe days. In other words, during the last two weeks of deer season, you can take does so long as you do it with a musket. Also bear in mind that you can shoot that you can shoot one antlered and ond one doe on each of those days, just as you can any day it is open for does.

This season, the state upped my counties doe days to 50, up from 35, the southern counties have had 72 days...the entire hunting season.... for the last several years.

There is not a road I travel that at least once each month I see yet another deer hit. It is a ridiculous situation....I know people who own 100-500 acre tracts, who don't hunt it themselves and won't allow others to hunt it, yet they are screaming to the high heavens about the deer eating their flowers and vegetable gardens up. DUH!

Last year Alabama followed Georgia and began to allow the general use of crossbows. I suspect that Mississippi has the same problem, a rapidly growing deer population, an aging hunter population, and a declining number of new hunters entering the field each year.

I strongly suspect that this action of the MS DNR is an effort to control the ever expanding deer population by offering yet another way more hunters can spend time in the field and take more animals. They ar afterall charged with the well being of the herd, and if there are too many, then the numbers must be reduced or disease (and automobiles) will take them out.

Our hunting is not only for our enjoyment, we do take out surplus numbers of deer aiding in the over health of the herd. This move is not about encroaching on any type of hunting, it is about taking out more deer from a population that is spiraling out of control, and doing it within the confines of the hunting season.

Between archery and gun season, he already have 4 months of deer hunting here in the South, at least one state as nearly 5, and I won't be surprised to see more states down here move in the direction of not only more days, but adding hunts with special arms, rewarding the hunters using them with more doe days

As you meditate on this, realize that in Alabama our herd is between 1.2 and 1.6 million deer. On the 100 or so acres I hunt, I regularly see 15-20 deer a season, and know of three groups of does and offspring that number at least 9 animals each. Think we got enough deer? Apparently MS DNR does too, and they are doing the only thing available to them to reduce the numbers....offering a longer season.
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Offline handirifle

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2005, 07:37:32 PM »
These topics are fun cause they always stir ir up :grin:

I agree with just about everyone, there needs to be SEPARATE seasons for different types of take, archery, black powder, smokeless rifle, etc.  Yes it's a lot os seasons and your tag SHOULD allow you to take in any of them.

Here is CA it's such a mess it's not even funny.  Blackpowder hunts are a special drawing and seldom ever seen.  We have the opposite problem, our deer herd is declining throught most of the state.  I'm sure the "no mountain lion hunting" has NOTHING to do with it, after all they only eat a deer a week, (EACH).

It sounds to me like they are trying to thin the herd a bit and still trying to find a way to keep it "primitive", afterall, the 38-55 is not exactly a beanfield rifle, at least not in most of our hands, so it's range is still limited.

I grew up in Ohio and we only had a 5 day gun season then, shotgun slug ONLY.  Now you can use shotgun,smooth bore or rifled, round ball or slug.  Also can use muzzleloading rifles of any type and handguns with 5" or longer barrel.

California's one saving grace is I am allowed to use any centerfire rifle with almost no restrictions on what game you use it on.  There are some but not many, varies by county.

Just be glad you guys have the deer to go after.

In the zone I live in (we get tags for specific zones) the success rate has been at 6% or LESS for about 15 years.  I'm trying another zone this year but it is about 150-200 miles north.

The zones that have 50% or greater usually have a very small number of tags to draw from, usually about 150 tags with about 700-1000 applicants.  It's not pretty.
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Offline Haywire Haywood

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2005, 12:45:39 AM »
Seems I stirred the pot with a big stick this time... Hehe..

I can see why it may be a deer control method, a way to get hunters to thin the herd more.  I was thinking "Why don't they just lengthen the modern gun season?", but I've been out of Ga too long and forgot how long their MG seasons were in the deep south as is.  Here in Ky, in my zone, the modern gun season is only Nov 12-21, either sex.  Bow is much longer at Sept 3 - Jan 16, Crossbow is Nov 28-Dec 7, and there are 2 ML seasons, Oct 15-16 and Dec 10-18.  I thought the Crossbow season was for disabled hunters only but after looking it up, I was apparently mistaken.

I've also read that part of the reason that herd control is somewhat difficult with hunting is the number of trophy hunters that refuse to take a doe.  I'm not a hardcore hunter, I may go 3 or 4 times a season (MG and ML combined), but I take the first legal deer that walks in front of me, whether or not it has antlers.  I've been told that does eat better anyway  :-) .

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Offline slayer

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2005, 01:45:18 AM »
It gets more weird. Here in Pennsylvania, we have an early 1 week long Antlerless Deer only season in October, no problem, you can use any muzzleloader .44 cal and up, still good, but then, here is where it gets weird, you can also use a Crossbow-uh-what? OK, Muzzleloader season and crossbow, doesn`t seam to fit :) I wish they would just legalize Crossbows for our Bow season and be done with it, but only if you are disabled can you use a Crossbow in Bow season. You(anyone) can also use a crossbow in the regular Firearms season, it gets a little confusing at times. Jack.

Offline JPH45

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2005, 02:49:51 AM »
handirifle and haywire both bring up exellent points,

handirifle says that the 38-55 is no beanfield rifle, that in most hands it is a short range proposition.... Absolutely correct, as is the 45-70, the 40-65, the 44-77, 45-90 and a host of other blackpowder cartridges. There is a world of difference between taking a shot with irons at 125 yards on a deer that may move the next second and sitting on your butt with a full 5 minutes and crossticks to bang a peice of steel.....not remotely the same game.

Haywire speaks of throphy hunters who won't even shoot a doe. I have a neighbor like this. Now mind you that he has no objection to killing a spike, it does afterall have horns :roll:  :( I'm a meat hunter, I'll take whatever nature offers. As well I've seen more than a few old time pictures of meat poles with does on 'em. I doubt our ideas of traditional hunting with tradition arms has even a remote relationship to what our ancestors thought about all this. Even the lowly 30-30 (by todays standards) displaced the very blackpowder cartridges we are speaking of.

I also agree with handirifle on the point of licensing. One should do all. That is how it is here in 'Bama. But in the days of 9 and 12 figure DNR budgets, special licensing is seen by the legislators as another means to make money. Never mind that the few extra dollars so raised add but a pitance to the coffers while for some it is the difference between enjoying a chance at a hunt and staying home.
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Offline Mac11700

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2005, 06:19:02 AM »
All valid points...1 liecence should do you for the whole season...and in places where the doe-buck ratio is way out of proportion...they could offer extended season does only any method...this would allow everyone a fair oppourtunity at them...

Mac
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Offline Mitch in MI

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2005, 06:45:22 AM »
Quote from: JPH45

Haywire speaks of throphy hunters who won't even shoot a doe. I have a neighbor like this. Now mind you that he has no objection to killing a spike, it does afterall have horns :roll:
...I doubt our ideas of traditional hunting with tradition arms has even a remote relationship to what our ancestors thought about all this.


I've heard people say that a spike buck will never grow a good rack, so go ahead and kill it. I may ask my cousin the retired deer farmer about that, he knows which buck shed what rack each year he had them. (although he might have culled a spike after its first rack)

I would imagine our ancestors from the 1700s and 1800s thought about how much meat they got, and how they'd need to preserve it for eating. I'm willing to bet they were also interested in not wasting ammo. My ancestors from the early 1900s were just happy to get a buck, and their pride varied with the size of the rack. My grandfather had a lot of venisonless years. I have three of his racks from the 1930s and 1940s, AFAIK, they may have been all he harvested in that period.

Offline Jeffery8mm

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OK HERE IT IS
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2005, 03:25:56 AM »
I just got off of the phone with the agency in Jackson Ms.  It is just as the site says.  You can buy a replica, but new, 38 cal or above and a box of new ammo of of the shelf and go a hunting!!!!!

Call em for yourself if you are from "the deep south" and still dont believe that this info is true!!!!!!

Jeff
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Offline nixsrs93

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2005, 03:37:01 AM »
Iron sites only, or can you top the 45-70 handi with a scope?

Offline poncaguy

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2005, 03:40:28 AM »
In Oklahoma, we have a "muzzle loader" season, not a "black powder season"...so you couldn't use a 45-70 Handi with black powder rounds.Has to be loaded from the muzzle....

Offline nixsrs93

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #53 on: August 15, 2005, 03:55:50 AM »
So a Handi is legal in 45/70, but a T/C in 45/70 is not???  Not that I care, but that makes no sense what so ever!

Offline stuffit

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thanks for the follow up
« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2005, 04:17:05 AM »
Jeffery8mm,
Thanks for your efforts in calling and posting on the call.  I never doubted you at all.  Just puzzled why, if these were current and valid regs, they hadn't been designated so in the official regulations area of the site.  But then, that's par for the course of "officialdom", I reckon.  I have a BC in .45-70 and was considering getting a .38-55 barrel for my better half to use this season in view of your post.  We both have Huntsmans but it's surely less hassel using the H&Rs.  Once again, we appreciate you bringing our attention to this information. :lol: (the "Deep South" is Jefferson and Adams County)  :lol:
 :wink:
stuffit
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Deceased

Offline Badnews Bob

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2005, 04:30:24 AM »
Nixsrs a handi is a copy of a pre 1900s rifle a TC is not thats the only diffrence, Its the rifle style more than the cartridge type athouh that seems to make a diffrence also.

  One little note to make this deeper, Talking about crossbows. They where invented before most styles of bows way before long bows or recurves. Same story as a lot of things if you want to be a purist you have to pick a time frame and go with that not just a generic discription. all the composits, wheels, dodads and gadgets just make them diffrent.
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Offline Mac11700

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2005, 07:00:01 AM »
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They where invented before most styles of bows way before long bows or recurves.


Nope...this isn't true at all...the prehistoric man found in Switzlerland had a bow and arrow with him...if I remember correctly...and the common bow and arrows have been in regular usage from around 25,000BC

http://www.centenaryarchers.gil.com.au/history.htm#25,000%20-%2018,000%20BC

Tassili rock fresco depicting archer in Egypt from about 7,500 BC.




Literary and physical evidence suggest that the crossbow first appeared in China during the 4th century BC. It wasn't until the 10th or 11th centuries AD that the crossbow became a significant military weapon in Europe. It passed from general military service in the 16th century, but its use for hunting and target shooting has continued to the present day. The most of following chronology is abridged from GUIDE TO THE CROSSBOW by Paterson:

341 BC Earliest reliable record of crossbow use at battle of Ma-Ling in China.

228 BC Earliest crossbow artifact, a bronze lock mechanism from the tomb of Yu Wang.

0-100 AD Heron of Alexandria describes gastraphetes.

300-700 Roman carvings of crossbows.

385 Vegetius mentions crossbows in DE RE MILITARIA.

1066 Crossbows introduced to England by Normans.

1096 Anna Comnena describes Norman crossbows.

1100-1200 Composite crossbow lath appears.

1139 2nd Lateran Council interdict forbids use of crossbow among Christians.

1192 Crusader victory at Jaffa aided by crossbows.

1314 Earliest reliable record of steel lath.

1346 Genoese crossbowmen defeated at Crecy by English longbowmen.

1373 Earliest illustration of cranequin.

1503 First of many English laws restricting possession and use of crossbows.

1550-1600 Firearms replace crossbows in most Weatern armies.

1860 Photographic evidence from China shows repeating crossbows still used there as military weapons.

1939-45 "Arrowspeed" crossbow issued to some Austrailian commandos in Pacific Theatre.

1945-1975 Crossbows employed by Montagnard peoples and US special forces during Vietnam conflict.

1960?-present Crossbows used to shoot anesthetic darts for capturing and treating wildlife; also used to obtain tissue samples from marine animals for obtaining genetic information.

Hope this helps...

Mac
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Offline Longcruise

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2005, 07:22:26 AM »
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1...the folks who are trying to divide us...isn't about our elected representatives...state workers...municipal workers..or the likes...it is those who's sole ambition is to get ALL hunting stopped and those who's "special interest" is at stake...all you have to do...is to look at some of the resolutions and bills before Congress and the Senate to see who I am speaking...and all you have to do is come here and see them in actions...whenever any hunting bills are brought up...even those that have been enacted to reduce the urban deer population..the other folks who's crying the loudest...is those purist...who don't want to hunt during centerfire season...


I would like to see an illustration of a specific loss to hunting that was perpetrated by those you describe above and came about as a result of hunters failing to stand shoulder to shoulder against them.  Sure, there have been losses, and i can point a few out to you but they weren't the result of division among hunters.

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...would this not reflect what they hunt with?...If not..I apologize...for taking it incorrectly..


You did indeed take it incorrectly.  I see since my last visit that the discussion has taken a turn toward the game management aspect of special seasons.  It is a good point but the validity of that point varies based upon the management needs of various states and localities within those states.  Sevaral members have described what is a widespread problem in probably half of the country right now and that is out of control whitetail deer populations.  IMO, attempts to manage exploding deer populations by adding special primitive weapon hunts is doomed to failure.  Nothing manages deer like a hunter with three doe tags in his/her pocket and modern rifle with one in the chamber and five more waiting in the magazine. :grin:

So, What I'm saying is that special primitive seasons often were not created as a management tool (that's the case where I live).  They were created to provide a season that allowed the use of a special type of weapon and for those who are willing to use it, such as a traditional style ml gun.  That statement is true for both the bow season and ml season in Colorado.  

Now, we have no deer population problem here.  In fact, deer populations are finally recovering after many years of being way down.  We have a one license per big game species rule and that does not guarntee that you will get a deer tag since they are all by draw.

So, you tell me, if a hunter is allowed only one deer or elk tag and they want that tag for the ml season, and they also want to be allowed sabots, scopes, pelletized powder, etc, etc, etc. what is their motivation?

My state is not the only one where these situations exist.  Many other western states are in the same boat.

So, as far as I'm concerned, if management is a problem then it's best solved with multiple tags and autoloaders :)   If it's the retention of an historical hunting style, then it should be kept that way.

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after all...it's my tax dollars too...that is paying for all of this...


That's another thing that varies from state to state.  In my state, the only tax dollars spent on game management come from Pittman Robinson funds and make up a single digit percentage of the total.  The vast majority is licensce dollars with a small amount from the state lotto.

Offline Mac11700

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2005, 08:14:01 AM »
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Now, we have no deer population problem here. In fact, deer populations are finally recovering after many years of being way down. We have a one license per big game species rule and that does not guarntee that you will get a deer tag since they are all by draw.

So, you tell me, if a hunter is allowed only one deer or elk tag and they want that tag for the ml season, and they also want to be allowed sabots, scopes, pelletized powder, etc, etc, etc. what is their motivation?

My state is not the only one where these situations exist. Many other western states are in the same boat.

So, as far as I'm concerned, if management is a problem then it's best solved with multiple tags and autoloaders Smile If it's the retention of an historical hunting style, then it should be kept that way.


Because this is what they choose to hunt with...and this is my point...you should be able to choose your choice of weapon... why do you ask this...?Being able to hunt should be motivation enough...if I were limited to just throwing spears...I would be going...would I think I was disadvantaged in using it?...Nope...I would just hunt within range...If I would use muzzleloaders...would I feel disadvantaged...nope...I would use the best that I can afford and hunt within range...Why do I feel this way...to me...the weapons are tools to get the job done...and like anything else...I can choose which tool to use...be it modern...or primative...the choice...is MINE

What is the real issue here... I thought it is being able to use some centerfire cartridges in Mississippi...and this states meaning of the word primative...is it not?...It really doesn't have a-lot to do with Colorado...or Missouri...now does it... I do wish we had that oppourtunity here...


Mac
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Offline Badnews Bob

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45/70 Legal as a Muzzleloader in MS????
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2005, 09:56:18 AM »
I could be wrong :roll:    My point was (besides the one on my head) That modern bows and crossbows are a far cry from primitive, At least here in KY the hunting is decided by the health of the herd. A healthy herd looser regs, a poor herd strickter regs. The weapons of choice really don't make any diffrence unless the state allows it to. 8)
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